If Joe Louis Had Never Been Born...

[Cap]

So, if the Brown Bomber had never been born or had never taken up boxing, would Jimmy Bivins have taken his place as heavyweight champion or would he even have been given a chance?

[Ambling Alp II]

Great question. Unfortunately, I'm guessing he would have been ducked. There probably would have been several different white champions who would have had the title for a short time duirng those 12 years. Bivins was probably too good to take a chance on.

[Keko]

Bivins was a very good boxer and had a lot of fights with top competition but I do not think that would be so dominant regardless of Joe Louis.

[Cap]

FYI Bivins went unbeaten from June of 1942 to sometime in 1946, fighting the top guys in the world.

[Keko]

That was undefeated until he fights with Walcott.

[Kalan]

If Jack Blackburn had never been born you would have never heard of Joe Louis.

Possibly a much greater fighter would have been born in Louis's place.. But if Louis hadn't been born he wouldn't have been knocked out by Max Schmeling.. So Schmeling would have gotten his timely shot at Braddock and he probably would have beaten him.. Then probably guys like Conn, Nova and others would have traded the title between themselves for years.. Charles and Walcott might have shown up earlier than they did... It is known that the team who backed Louis were looking for a can't miss black prospect to push to the title -- because Boxing from 1913 to 1937 was devoid of black Heavyweight challengers. They would have settled on another prospect. If they didn't unearth Louis they would have kept going.

BTW, every human alive had a worse than 1 in 400 quadrillion chance of being born. As each generation passes the odds against being born become exponentially greater. Since it's impossible for your individual consciousness to be transported to another earthly creature upon your death, you're unique in body and soul. Geneticists have found that even "identical" twins have significant genetic variance.

[Tomasino]

If Jack Blackburn had never been born you would have never heard of Joe Louis.

Possibly a much greater fighter would have been born in Louis's place.. But if Louis hadn't been born he wouldn't have been knocked out by Max Schmeling.. So Schmeling would have gotten his timely shot at Braddock and he probably would have beaten him.. Then probably guys like Conn, Nova and others would have traded the title between themselves for years.. Charles and Walcott might have shown up earlier than they did... It is known that the team who backed Louis were looking for a can't miss black prospect to push to the title -- because Boxing from 1913 to 1937 was devoid of black Heavyweight challengers. They would have settled on another prospect. If they didn't unearth Louis they would have kept going.

BTW, every human alive had a worse than 1 in 400 quadrillion chance of being born. As each generation passes the odds against being born become exponentially greater. Since it's impossible for your individual consciousness to be transported to another earthly creature upon your death, you're unique in body and soul. Geneticists have found that even "identical" twins have significant genetic variance.

Thanks Kalan, you cleared a lot up with that post

[Crease]

So, if the Brown Bomber had never been born or had never taken up boxing, would Jimmy Bivins have taken his place as heavyweight champion or would he even have been given a chance?

Bivins? Jeez, that's hard to say. There's no doubt that there was a time when he was one of the top operators around the world. I'll have to think about this one.

Of course none of us can say for sure, but my initial reaction was NO, but after a few moments of thinking about it - is it so unrealistic to think that Jimmy could have landed himself the title somewhere along the line? Probably not, I'd say.

[Crease]

Geneticists have found that even "identical" twins have significant genetic variance.

Yes, because they are different people.



What is it with this guy?

[Kalan]

Before the science of genetics was well developed, it was believed that identical twins were essentially the same individual -- and it was only their varied environments, friends, and associates that would often lead them into different career paths and life circumstances. The "evil twin" scenario.

[BoxBuzz]

If Louis was never around, Wilt would have chosen to be born in that time frame. To fill in the void.

There's no need to fill in the details.......... history would have taken a very tall change of trajectory.

[Kalan]

Give it a rest BuzzBox

[Cap]

The level of discourse has declined significantly.

Louis got his shot primarily because he was an exciting fighter, taking on all comers (white contenders) and knocking them out. Bivins was a top talent but not in the same class as Louis. The powers that be like Mike Jacobs might not have considered him worth the promotion. He wouldn't have been a factor in the late thirties when he was barely carrying around 175 pounds. Possibly Schmeling wins the title from Braddock in 1937 then loses it to Farr. Very likely the title would have been passed around until the early fourties when Bivins emerges as one of the best beating Tami Mauriello IRL for the "Duration Championship". Bivins was good enough during this period to win the title and hold on to it, possibly losing it and getting it back from Bob Pastor or Tami Mauriello. He did lose split decisions to these guys but if he had the title on the line the results probably would have been different. Notice later how many times Charles and Walcott battled for the championship.

[Kalan]

The level of discourse has declined significantly.

Louis got his shot primarily because he was an exciting fighter, taking on all comers (white contenders) and knocking them out. Bivins was a top talent but not in the same class as Louis. The powers that be like Mike Jacobs might not have considered him worth the promotion. He wouldn't have been a factor in the late thirties when he was barely carrying around 175 pounds. Possibly Schmeling wins the title from Braddock in 1937 then loses it to Farr. Very likely the title would have been passed around until the early fourties when Bivins emerges as one of the best beating Tami Mauriello IRL for the "Duration Championship". Bivins was good enough during this period to win the title and hold on to it, possibly losing it and getting it back from Bob Pastor or Tami Mauriello. He did lose split decisions to these guys but if he had the title on the line the results probably would have been different. Notice later how many times Charles and Walcott battled for the championship.

Ezzard Charles was a much better boxer, puncher, and fighter than Bivins ever was. Charles went undefeated from March 1943 to July 1951... A 42-fight winning streak, and I’m including a ridiculous decision versus Elmer Ray who everyone in the world but the referee and 1 judge gave to Charles.. The other judge had it 8-2 for Charles, which was the score that about everyone else had.. Charles was outweighed by 20 pounds but dominated … and in the rematch Charles eviscerated Ray before stopping him.

During Charles’ 42-fight winning streak were 3 wins over Archie Moore including a brutal KO... 2 clear wins over Joe Walcott... 2 smashing KO wins over Lloyd Marshall... an easy win over Joe Louis... a brutal KO over Elmer Ray in their rematch… and 3 clear victories over Jimmy Bivins---including a brutal KO where Bivins remained flat out on the canvas for long after the count.

At his peak Charles was an absolutely brilliant fighter… Something historians tend to forget because of some poor showing in many fights from 1951 through the end of his career. Many people said Charles wasn’t the same fighter after he killed Sam Baroudi ... but Charles himself said something different... That the early inroads of ALS had a major effect on him late in his career ... although he never knew what was happening to him until he was diagnosed.

[cfang]

i see it panning out this way

Schmeling beats braddock then war breaks out
Max keeps the title during the war but the americans set up their own title, probably won by godoy then passed to maurillio, baksi etc. Bivins may have got a shot but don't count on it. Around 47 Schmeling comes over to the states to get koed early by whomever is the champ who becomes the real champ. then charles and walcott take over then marciano.

[BoxBuzz]

Give it a rest BuzzBox

Ouch. Sorry kalel.
Just tryin my hand at fiction. just my luck, a master of the genre comes along and busts on me for it.

[Kalan]

Give it a rest BuzzBox

Ouch. Sorry kalel.
Just tryin my hand at fiction. just my luck, a master of the genre comes along and busts on me for it.

BuzzBox, you lie through your snoot every day, so you're very practiced at fiction, but you think it's comedy, which is sad.. I wouldn't call you a master of fiction.. You stink at it. When I want fiction I'll read, Grisham, Ludlum, Brown, King, Burroughs, Clancy, Rice, and others who present their work as fiction and don't try to be funny with it.. But I usually don't read fiction because I'm more interested in politics, history, science, and technology.

Did you read my post on Ezzard Charles above??? ... That's laying out truth and facts.. He beat Bivins 3 times in the same stretch of fights he beat Moore, Marshall, Walcott, Ray, and Louis for 14 wins over all those folks ... He also beat Charley Burley twice during an earlier period, well before he achieved his best form.. I'm of the belief Charles was the best fighter in the world from '44 to '50.

[BoxBuzz]

We agree on your assessment of Charles. With that news you may want to reassess, otherwise you will once again find yourself in agreement with me.


On another note. Are you blind? Or suffer from intermittent blindness? No disrespect intended. What I mean is, you must have mirrors placed around your home. In which case you are bound to be faced with your own reflection now and again. The sheer brilliance of which must be as blindingly debilitating as staring at the sun, if not downright lethal.

[Cap]

Seems to me that Bivins and Charles fought late in 1942 or early 1943 and Bivins cleaned his clock. Bivins didn't lose decisively until the fight with Lee Q Murray in 1946. If I recall correctly, Bivins lost a split decision to Walcott prior to the Murray fight that could easily have been scored in his favour.

Bivins was often called the "Caretaker Champion" but it is questionable whether he would have been given a whiff of the real championship with Joe out of the picture. Most likely Ezzard Charles and Walcott would have fought over it in the late 40s as they did in real life, there being few credible white contenders, and no black ones these two hadn't disposed of.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali truly would be the greatest and I bet Dempsey would be even more idolized.

[Kalan]

Seems to me that Bivins and Charles fought late in 1942 or early 1943 and Bivins cleaned his clock. Bivins didn't lose decisively until the fight with Lee Q Murray in 1946. If I recall correctly, Bivins lost a split decision to Walcott prior to the Murray fight that could easily have been scored in his favour.

Bivins was often called the "Caretaker Champion" but it is questionable whether he would have been given a whiff of the real championship with Joe out of the picture. Most likely Ezzard Charles and Walcott would have fought over it in the late 40s as they did in real life, there being few credible white contenders, and no black ones these two hadn't disposed of.

If you checked the record quickly, you know Charles fought Bivins 5 times.. Charles lost back-to-back fights to Bivins and Marshall in early in 1943.. Charles was knocked down 12 times in those fights---so he had a few holes in his defense early on.. He apparently sealed them up really well.. Charles paid Marshall back by knocking him out twice.. Bivins was bigger and stronger than Charles, but Ezz paid Bivins back by beating him 4 times, including knocking him out cold once...

I can't believe how often Charles fought Moore, Bivins, Walcott, Maxim, Burley, and Marshall. He fought 10 Heavyweight Title Fights in 2 years. He was a fighting fool in his prime.. But when he started losing so many fights I wonder why he didn't quit.

[Jaywheel]

We wouldn't have the chance to debate werher he could beat Joe Mesi or not.

[Kalan]

Before the science of genetics was well developed, it was believed that identical twins were essentially the same individual -- and it was only their varied environments, friends, and associates that would often lead them into different career paths and life circumstances. The "evil twin" scenario.

Yes, by the uninformed. Much like there are still people who believe in some kind of god, and always will do no matter how much scientific evidence is placed before them to the contrary.

Practically all the top scientists believe in God.,, But you say "some kind of God???" ... Many non-believers worship false God's -- such as money, fame, sex, power, youth, or beauty.. However, most people on earth believe in an eternal maker who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in and on the earth.. Man can't produce a mosquito from the raw materials God provided, so it’s a cinch we didn’t create more complex life forms such as ourselves..

Some deluded people believe man and every other living creature descended from one celled animals, who were originally created by primal ooze flowing this way and that.. The ooze was the product of materials created by the big bang.. But exactly how the matter that composed the particle that exploded during the big bang was cobbled together and touched off??? ... That's a theory they’re still working on.

But they’re sure life itself is an accident of natural forces.. And the sun is another accident that just happens to be the perfect size, temperature, and composition to keep the earth well heated, lighted, stabilized, and energized by voltaic, photosynthesisic, nuclear, and electromagnetic power that we don’t yet fully understand, while being balanced and tethered to nothing but a precise rotation and orbit around the center of the Milky Way, and at the same time centering the earth’s precise rotation and orbit. The moon also regulates and stabilizes the earth’s orbit in ways we don’t yet fully understand, but all this precision is just a fantastic accident to non-believers – because to acknowledge God’s existence would means we need to follow a code of conduct that sometimes puts others ahead of ourselves.

[Ambling Alp II]

Wow.

[APerno]

How the hell did you all get here? - Go back to Wilt's sex life.