Prime Carlos Monzon vs. a prime Sugar?

[Kalan]

Don't use the word "context" then.. Retired is a BS designation.. If you quit before you're knocked cold, or somebody stops it by flinging in the towel, nobody robs your opponent of the KO. The minute between rounds simply gives the corner and boxer a bit more time to decide if they want to quit.

[BoxBuzz]

Yep.........I was simply pointing out a boxrec descriptor that is in practice. Nothing more...nothing less.

I can see that English is probably NOT your second language.

Cause it always takes a lot more than a second for you to understand it.

[Kalan]

You're an idiot BuzzBox. Everything goes over your head... You should slow down and go over my posts 7 times before you reply with your inanities.

[BoxBuzz]

An idiot? You suspect me of being an idiot? That's a very dumb thing to say about a fella of my caliber.

However, this judgment of yours, as with your many others, would need to be considered within the context of your overall assessment competency.

Which could bring my rating up to significantly above moron, once properly weighted for your typical error parameters.

So it's only about 1/3 as bad of an insult as you imagine it to be.

And I can live with that. But cut it out, I'm the sensitive sort.

[Kalan]

Your assessment competency needs to be judged on never holding opinions of your own, and going with mythology and popular opinion. You never try to refute arguments based on actual data, stats, skills, intelligence, punching power, records etc., but based on others opinions. You still haven't studied Henry Armstrong's fights as you said you would -- to see if what I say about him is correct. Nor have you looked at Valero's. At least you never mentioned what you picked up from that.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Robinson up to Maxim was virtually unbeatable.
It doesn't make sense to pick anyone ever from 135 to 168 to beat him.
Could it happen? Of course. But it doesn't make sense to pick against him.

After the Maxim fight, Robinson was just a great fighter,
who could have still made the HOF just on that part of his resume.
But that Robinson was at competition's level. He was beatable.

I haven't watched a lot of Monzon, so I'll leave it at that.

[Kalan]

If you haven't watched Monzon, your assessment is ridiculous... Particularly saying Robinson was unbeatable up to the Maxim fight when he went down to his 3rd defeat in that fight... Unbeatable fighters don't fall to their 3rd defeat to slow, less than athletic, soft punchers such as Maxim.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

If you haven't watched Monzon, your assessment is ridiculous... Particularly saying Robinson was unbeatable up to the Maxim fight when he went down to his 3rd defeat in that fight... Unbeatable fighters don't fall to their 3rd defeat to slow, less than athletic, soft punchers such as Maxim.

SRR FELL TO HIS 3RD DEFEAT BECAUSE OF THE HEAT HE WAS A MILE IN FRONT ON THE JUDGE'S CARD'S WAS NEVER KNOCKED DOWN OR HURT UNTILL THE HEAT RENDERED HIM DELUSIONAL [A BIT LIKE YOU MINUS THE HEAT ] NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY PUNCH THROWN BY MAXIM JUST A BIG STRONG LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT THAT HANDLED THE CONDITION'S BETTER THAT NIGHT THEN SRR WHAT [BAD INTENTIONS] IS RIGHTFULY SAYING IS STOP COMPAIRING THE OVER THE HILL SRR WITH THE 31 YEAR OLD SRR AT NEARLY 34 YEAR'S OLD IN THE 2ND PART OF HIS CAREER SRR WAS BEATABLE BUT EVEN THEN HE WOULD PUSHED MONZON TO THE LIMIT THATS THE 34/35/36/37/38 YEAR OLD SRR WAY PAST HIS BEST THE ONE YOU KEEP COMPAIRING A PRIME MONZON WITH

[Kalan]

If you haven't watched Monzon, your assessment is ridiculous... Particularly saying Robinson was unbeatable up to the Maxim fight when he went down to his 3rd defeat in that fight... Unbeatable fighters don't fall to their 3rd defeat to slow, less than athletic, soft punchers such as Maxim.

SRR FELL TO HIS 3RD DEFEAT BECAUSE OF THE HEAT HE WAS A MILE IN FRONT ON THE JUDGE'S CARD'S WAS NEVER KNOCKED DOWN OR HURT UNTILL THE HEAT RENDERED HIM DELUSIONAL [A BIT LIKE YOU MINUS THE HEAT ] NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY PUNCH THROWN BY MAXIM JUST A BIG STRONG LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT THAT HANDLED THE CONDITION'S BETTER THAT NIGHT THEN SRR WHAT [BAD INTENTIONS] IS RIGHTFULY SAYING IS STOP COMPAIRING THE OVER THE HILL SRR WITH THE 31 YEAR OLD SRR AT NEARLY 34 YEAR'S OLD IN THE 2ND PART OF HIS CAREER SRR WAS BEATABLE BUT EVEN THEN HE WOULD PUSHED MONZON TO THE LIMIT THATS THE 34/35/36/37/38 YEAR OLD SRR WAY PAST HIS BEST THE ONE YOU KEEP COMPAIRING A PRIME MONZON WITH

I think you'll find it is called having an agenda Clive, and Kolon has certainly got one where SRR is concerned. In a post above he accuses Box Buzz of ignoring facts and stats, yet he runs terrified from any mention of the scorecards in the SRR / Maxim fight. It doesn't get much more hypocritical than that.

My favourite piece of garbage by him is his belief that Maxim stood in his corner waiting for the opening bell thinking, NO PROBLEMS HERE, IN ABOUT 40 MINUTES TIME THE HEAT WILL TAKE CARE OF THIS GUY, so in the meantime I'll just let him make me look clueless.

That's ridiculous BS... Maxim won rounds in that fight... He punched Robinson very well and easily absorbed everything Robinson threw at him as easy as pie.. The smaller man couldn't take it.. I don't give a damn that Maxim was a lousy boxer or a very soft puncher... He was smart in that fight... He absorbed the smaller, weaker, less durable Robinson's shots with ease... Meanwhile Robinson got hurt, exhausted, and he couldn't finish the fight.. Maxim knocked Robinson out of the fight by hammering him in the 13th round.. Who won that round??? ... The spectators, who were doing nothing but cheering and cat calling, weren't affected by the heat.. The ushers and cornermen weren't affected by the heat... If you didn't have a strenuous job to do, the heat wasn't going to affect you at all.. It gets hotter than it was that night for Kri-sake.. A boxer has all the water he needs so he doesn't get dehydrated.. Robinson was punched... He was driven around the ring in the 13th and Maxim was going to knock him flat out cold if he came out for the 14th.. That's why Robinson quit.. Either that or get flattened.

Carlos Monzon fought when it was a lot hotter down in Argentina... He was never stopped in his entire career... He was a lot bigger and stronger than Robinson and a better fighter than Maxim... He punched a lot harder and fought at a much harder pace... He would have beaten the trash out of SRR.

[Kalan]

Your full of bull poop... The commentator is the guy with the agenda. He ignored every punch Maxim landed on Robinson throughout the fight... He's the same knowledgeless and blind idiot who voiced over all the original commentators with 20/800 hindsight in hundreds of these classic fights, and I've watched them all... Often his voice isn't synced well with the action so it's ridiculous.. If you turn the sound off you realize what really happened.. Maxim punished and battered Robinson in the 13th to the extent Robinson refused to come out for the next round.. Maxim was a slowpoke who couldn't punch -- but he had enough power to knock out Sugar Ray Robinson.

If you don't believe your eyes, check the facts... Robinson is one of the 22 KO wins in 116 fights for the weak hitting slowpoke, Joey Maxim (19% KO ratio).

[Kalan]

Your full of bull poop... The commentator is the guy with the agenda. He ignored every punch Maxim landed on Robinson throughout the fight... He's the same knowledgeless and blind idiot who voiced over all the original commentators with 20/800 hindsight in hundreds of these classic fights, and I've watched them all... Often his voice isn't synced well with the action so it's ridiculous.. If you turn the sound off you realize what really happened.. Maxim punished and battered Robinson in the 13th to the extent Robinson refused to come out for the next round.. Maxim was a slowpoke who couldn't punch -- but he had enough power to knock out Sugar Ray Robinson.

If you don't believe your eyes, check the facts... Robinson is one of the 22 KO wins in 116 fights for the weak hitting slowpoke, Joey Maxim (19% KO ratio).

Go to your nearest mental hospital, at the earliest opportunity.

Now you have the commentator as a liar when as early as the 9th round he says Robinson is tiring from the oppressive heat, or how about when he says referee Goldstein is holding onto the ropes and just following the fighters around the ring, due to the same?

Perhaps when he says he can't understand how Maxim has taken the punishment he has in the heat yet remains standing?

According to you the ref, the commentator, the filmed evidence is all BS, and Maxim won the fight with consummate ease.

Next you will be telling us the temperature was a comfortable 65 degrees in there, stoopid.

And I don't give a flying ferk what you want to believe I will go with Boxrec's official verdict L RTD 13.

Perhaps they are well aware that SRR made the buffoonish Maxim look as stupid as you ( well almost ) and it was NOTHING more than the heat that got the better of him.

You must be posting from a mental hospital with your inane biased comments.. He wasn't the commentator stupid... They voiced over the original commentators on this video.. The guy doing the voice over did it retrospect from a script... Many migrant workers toil all day in the field on hotter days than that, and never succumb to the heat.. Robinson was in perfect physical condition, as was Maxim.. In their condition top athletes should be able to withstand a moderately hot day.. Understand it was 103...not 118... Maxim paced himself for the heat.. Robinson apparently wasn't smart enough to do that and fell to one of the few KO's Maxim ever scored.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Your full of bull poop... The commentator is the guy with the agenda. He ignored every punch Maxim landed on Robinson throughout the fight... He's the same knowledgeless and blind idiot who voiced over all the original commentators with 20/800 hindsight in hundreds of these classic fights, and I've watched them all... Often his voice isn't synced well with the action so it's ridiculous.. If you turn the sound off you realize what really happened.. Maxim punished and battered Robinson in the 13th to the extent Robinson refused to come out for the next round.. Maxim was a slowpoke who couldn't punch -- but he had enough power to knock out Sugar Ray Robinson.

If you don't believe your eyes, check the facts... Robinson is one of the 22 KO wins in 116 fights for the weak hitting slowpoke, Joey Maxim (19% KO ratio).

The Hottest night on record did you hear that if not you can see it I watched it for the 1st time ever without any sound and what I seen was a bigger man behind on point's against a little man the little man by round 13 looked like I do when i'v been mowing the grass in the middle of summer after downing 10 beer's a little under the weather....Hottest night on record in New York City that night.

[Kalan]

Go to your nearest mental hospital, at the earliest opportunity.

Now you have the commentator as a liar when as early as the 9th round he says Robinson is tiring from the oppressive heat, or how about when he says referee Goldstein is holding onto the ropes and just following the fighters around the ring, due to the same?

Perhaps when he says he can't understand how Maxim has taken the punishment he has in the heat yet remains standing?

According to you the ref, the commentator, the filmed evidence is all BS, and Maxim won the fight with consummate ease.

Next you will be telling us the temperature was a comfortable 65 degrees in there, stoopid.

And I don't give a flying ferk what you want to believe I will go with Boxrec's official verdict L RTD 13.

Perhaps they are well aware that SRR made the buffoonish Maxim look as stupid as you ( well almost ) and it was NOTHING more than the heat that got the better of him.

You must be posting from a mental hospital with your inane biased comments.. He wasn't the commentator stupid... They voiced over the original commentators on this video.. The guy doing the voice over did it retrospect from a script... Many migrant workers toil all day in the field on hotter days than that, and never succumb to the heat.. Robinson was in perfect physical condition, as was Maxim.. In their condition top athletes should be able to withstand a moderately hot day.. Understand it was 103...not 118... Maxim paced himself for the heat.. Robinson apparently wasn't smart enough to do that and fell to one of the few KO's Maxim ever scored.

You obviously know as much about people working in oppressive heat conditions as you do about boxing. Ferk All. They can carry and have access to water all the time if they choose, not for 1 minute out of every 4. They can sip water every 10 seconds if they want to. So ffs drop that idea before you dig an even bigger hole than the one you are already in.

Secondly, if English isn't your first language you need to study it more before you lecture other folks on its use. If it is your first language you are piss poor at understanding it. The guy was describing the action on the film. He was commenting that Robinson was outlanding Maxim by 2 to 1 with punches. He was commenting that Robinson was losing both balance and agility due to the heat. he was commenting that the ref had to hold on to the ropes just to walk around the ring following the fighters, due to the heat. That makes him a commentator. Nobody claimed he was commentating live.

A good word for you to start swatting up on the use of English might be " exceeding "

The venue for the Robinson – Maxim fight was Yankee Stadium in New York City. The fight was originally scheduled for June 23, 1952 but was delayed to June 25 due to torrential thunderstorms. As it turned out it was the hottest June 25th in New York City since 1899 with temperatures under the ring lights exceeding 103 degrees.

Don't talk like an idiot, please... If you're working in the fields on a hot day you can't stop for a drink every 10 seconds or you would never get any work done.. You don't need water every 3 or 4 minutes either.. I've ran and worked in hotter weather than 103`with no ill effects and without drinking water every 3 minutes... You need to drink when you're thirsty and stay hydrated, but you're not going to sweat out in 3 minutes.. Marathon runners grab water as they run on very hot days -- but experienced runners might not even take a drink for the first 40 to 60 minutes because they know you can literally sweat out a gallon before you get thirsty and need replenishment.. There's more of a danger of drinking TOO MUCH water, which many inexperienced runners do.. You should drink only when you're thirsty, not according to a schedule some clueless trainer or coach created.. An athlete drinking when he's not thirsty can be bad news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

Your post proves it wasn't even the hottest June 25th on record... There were much hotter days in July and August... Maxim had energy in reserve... "I could have fought 30 rounds at my pace.. Robinson was exhausting himself trying to hurt me.. Very few Light Heavyweights ever hurt me."

[Kalan]

You don't care what marathon runners do??? They're athletes who burn more calories and sweat more than boxers during their competition you idiot.. so maybe you should get a clue because Robinson isn't the only guy who ever fought on a hot day.. He's the guy with the most excuses made by his fans.

Robinson was offered a rematch but didn't want one... You would think he would want to redeem himself, but obviously didn't think he could cut it.

June 25th is only one day of the year dipwad.. It gets hotter in July and August.. It was the same temperature for Joey Maxim, and it was at night.

I've been following boxing for a lot longer than you have and saw Robinson fight live... That's why I have a much better command of the facts than you.

[BoxBuzz]

Which is why marathon runners are banned from boxing. They'd clean out the various divisions inside of a month and all boxers would be on welfare by Christmas.

[Kalan]

You're beyond stupid oldie... I saw Robinson lose several Title fights to slow, hittable guys who Monzon would overwhelm and dispatch with a vengeance.

[Kalan]

Which is why marathon runners are banned from boxing. They'd clean out the various divisions inside of a month and all boxers would be on welfare by Christmas.

BuzzBox you're not funny... Boxers couldn't compete with good marathoners and vice versa... The point is they compete for over 2 hours running better than 5 minute miles, on hot, sweltering days ... and have to pace themselves for the conditions... as do boxers... Try to pick up on points that are real easy to get.

We all know that endurance sports like marathon running don't require amazingly fast thinking,.. amazing height, size, strength, and reach... amazingly fast reflexes... amazing game plans... and amazing skills, cunning, trickery, and wizardry... Whereas some sports where it's possible for a single athlete to score 100 points and out-rebound the entire opposing team require all of those attributes ... if you're going to dominate the NBA with them.

[Kalan]

golden oldie you're the dumbest man alive... I saw Robinson lose to Joey Maxim and Ralph Jones when he was 31 and 33... a far cry from 39...

Maxim was a feather hitter and notably slow... Ralph Jones came off of 5 straight losses to absolutely dominate Ray Robinson -- and those fights happened when Robinson was a lot younger than the Monzon who won his 30th straight fight and 15th straight World Title Fight by beating the great Rodrigo Valdez -- the man who dispatched super tough Benny Briscoe with a single blow... Robinson never fought anyone of that caliber -- or the caliber of Emile Griffith who Monzon beat twice.

[keithmoonhangover]

Which is why marathon runners are banned from boxing. They'd clean out the various divisions inside of a month and all boxers would be on welfare by Christmas.

[Kalan]

I guess you can't read... "We all know that endurance sports like marathon running don't require amazingly fast thinking,.. amazing height, size, strength, and reach... amazingly fast reflexes... amazing game plans... and amazing skills, cunning, trickery, and wizardry... Whereas some sports where it's possible for a single athlete to score 100 points and out-rebound the entire opposing team require all of those attributes ... if you're going to dominate the NBA with them."

Which is why i never hyped a marathon runner as a potential boxer.

[BoxBuzz]

Some boxers have used long distance running as part of their routine. Though many trainers advise against it for reasons I'm sure you would understand.

There are better ways to accomplish good cardio, that are easier on the body....swimming for one. But I'm not sure how that might conflict with the needs boxers have to build certain muscles.


Anyway cardio can be attained I'm sure by ways that boxers could use to their advantage without paying any downside. And as far as I know, there is no downside for a boxer to take that to the sky if they so wish.

Kalan, as much as I'm going to regret suggesting this, I'm guessing you not only know this, but may even have a "best practice" idea/suggestion/descriptor of how a boxer can best build the cardio pulmonary aspects needed.

Might be interesting to hear your take. Monzon was reported to be have been born with that unusual dna attribute where smoking does little to thwart the good cardio in a person. There actually is a definable parameter in the gene pool that gives some almost complete immunity to the debilitating effects of smoking. Monzon HAS to be one of these guys, he smoked like a chimney, and never appeared to be winded. Hell, maybe he could actually take the nicotine and utilize it in a way that gave him an advantage. It's an odd stimulant/depressant which refreshes nerves while having a calming effect, which means if he had no down side cardio wise, his mind and reflexes could actually have benefited from the effects of tobacco.

Ever notice how he never seemed to be confused or less than confident? he had uncanny accuracy, and the almost magical ability to "let loose" of a punch mid firing if it was less than perfect trajectory. This was a rather one of a kind, or better said "few" of a kind skill that certainly must go miles in saving energy, since truly full commitment to a "miss" is terribly draining. And when he missed, he never let it up his anxiety, he was a master of smooth control regardless of incoming. Even the one time he was genuinely rattled, he masterfully regained and returned to center. So fast I'm not even sure Benny even knew he was in trouble.

[Kalan]

Some boxers have used long distance running as part of their routine. Though many trainers advise against it for reasons I'm sure you would understand.

There are better ways to accomplish good cardio, that are easier on the body....swimming for one. But I'm not sure how that might conflict with the needs boxers have to build certain muscles.


Anyway cardio can be attained I'm sure by ways that boxers could use to their advantage without paying any downside. And as far as I know, there is no downside for a boxer to take that to the sky if they so wish.

Kalan, as much as I'm going to regret suggesting this, I'm guessing you not only know this, but may even have a "best practice" idea/suggestion/descriptor of how a boxer can best build the cardio pulmonary aspects needed.

Might be interesting to hear your take. Monzon was reported to be have been born with that unusual dna attribute where smoking does little to thwart the good cardio in a person. There actually is a definable parameter in the gene pool that gives some almost complete immunity to the debilitating effects of smoking. Monzon HAS to be one of these guys, he smoked like a chimney, and never appeared to be winded. Hell, maybe he could actually take the nicotine and utilize it in a way that gave him an advantage. It's an odd stimulant/depressant which refreshes nerves while having a calming effect, which means if he had no down side cardio wise, his mind and reflexes could actually have benefited from the effects of tobacco.

Ever notice how he never seemed to be confused or less than confident? he had uncanny accuracy, and the almost magical ability to "let loose" of a punch mid firing if it was less than perfect trajectory. This was a rather one of a kind, or better said "few" of a kind skill that certainly must go miles in saving energy, since truly full commitment to a "miss" is terribly draining. And when he missed, he never let it up his anxiety, he was a master of smooth control regardless of incoming. Even the one time he was genuinely rattled, he masterfully regained and returned to center. So fast I'm not even sure Benny even knew he was in trouble.

You can wear yourself out running... Some boxers ran up to 10 miles and that's foolish.. You're not trying to be a great runner.. But great cardio is very helpful so running and doing wind sprints are standard.. Run 5 miles and just slowly get your time down to under 30 minutes.. It may take a few years depending on your natural speed.. Run 3 days a week and do wind sprints 3 days a week... Carry a stop watch and you'll improve much faster.. Sprint backwards too.. Eventually you can sprint backwards at tremendous speed and it helps you maneuver very easily around the ring.. And when you run, run fast.. Your feet barely hit the ground so there's less chance for wear and tear on the feet, ankles, knees, and hips.. Working a big, hefty heavy bag hard and long is great for your endurance.

Swimming would be great if you always had access to an Olympic sized pool or a lap pool.. but If you spar in varied training camps as you're coming up a pool may not always be available to you, and you'd have to change your routine around which is not a great thing to do... Better to establish a road work routine -- there's always places to run.. Don't run with other fighters.. They'll slow you down with their gabbing and BSing.. Most boxers run turtle slow so don't run with them.

Smoking is never good.. It destroys your lungs and hampers your endurance whatever sport you’re playing.. But I knew many pro athletes who smoked when I was young.. When you went into a bar or to a party in the 60’s, the air was full of smoke... You got very used to half the people smoking like Hell.. Your body adjusts to it to a certain degree. Twenty years of smoking you can probably get away with. Fifty years of smoking and you’re probably dead already or wheezing like a asthmatic.. Living in certain cities is the equivalent of smoking 7 cigarettes a day.. Living with a chain smoker is like smoking yourself.

[BoxBuzz]

GO. I don't disagree with your general point. And I'm not being critical of you at all when I ask you to consider that Kaveman believes his own diatribe. I think he simply assesses in a way that does not always integrate with others.

On some issues I get his logic. On others nope. But I don't think his opinions are specifically designed to wind anyone up. Despite his dogged pursuit of some of his more diverse thoughts he shares.

For me it's absolutely consistent with some of the more opinionated trainers I have witnessed

[Kalan]

Oldie... You're a ranting, raving, atheistic demagogue with an IQ of 3.. Joe Maxim was slow and lacked punching power, but he stopped a prime Ray Robinson.. You see, he beat Ray by being much smarter.. Maxim didn't have to win every round.. He needed to pace himself intelligently for the weather conditions, which Robinson failed to do... He needed to absorb Robinson's light punches and wear SRR out until the skinny guy couldn't go anymore... and he needed to beat the fk out of Robinson in the 13th so SRR would be too exhausted and beaten up to come out for the 14th.. You need to check the record book to see if any judges were needed for that one -- and to find out who won.

And it didn't make any difference that Ralph Jones was coming off 5 straight losses... or that Robinson had a recent tune-up fight to sharpen his skills... Jones beat the living trash out of Robinson in a huge upset … and beat him in a route.

Such embarrassing losses to slowpokes never happened to Carlos Monzon... Plus Monzon didn’t pad his record with 150 creampuffs.. I certainly acknowledge the vast number of 2nd raters Robinson fought.. But who were those guys??? SRR never fought Gustav Scholz, who went undefeated for his first 68 fights.. SRR never fought Lazlo Papp who won 3 Olympic Gold Medals and went unbeaten for his whole pro career... For instance, Papp easily beat Ralph Jones who easily beat Robinson..

Having a long winning streak is not a big deal.. Yory Boy Campas went 56-0 against lackluster foes – then Campas fought Felix Trinidad and got trounced.. Robinson ducked the great boxer-punchers of his day such as Archie Moore and Charley Burley.

[Kalan]

You're the arrogant piece of sh!t around here stupid ... It was just as hot for Maxim as it was for Robinson you brainless fruitcake.. Maxim paced himself beautifully, fought very tactically, measured Robinson for less showy punches, and wore him down.. Maxim said, "I knew it was hot so I made Robinson work. I was a big Light Heavyweight and he was a skinny Middleweight. I knew he couldn't hurt me with his best shot. Robinson wore down like we figured he would and I beat him up in the 13th. I stopped him, it wasn't the heat that stopped him. It was just as hot for me as it was for Ray, I just fought a smarter fight."