If Joe Louis Had Never Been Born...

[Kalan]

Yes, by the uninformed. Much like there are still people who believe in some kind of god, and always will do no matter how much scientific evidence is placed before them to the contrary.

Practically all the top scientists believe in God.,, But you say "some kind of God???" ... Many non-believers worship false God's -- such as money, fame, sex, power, youth, or beauty.. However, most people on earth believe in an eternal maker who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in and on the earth.. Man can't produce a mosquito from the raw materials God provided, so it’s a cinch we didn’t create more complex life forms such as ourselves..

Some deluded people believe man and every other living creature descended from one celled animals, who were originally created by primal ooze flowing this way and that.. The ooze was the product of materials created by the big bang.. But exactly how the matter that composed the particle that exploded during the big bang was cobbled together and touched off??? ... That's a theory they’re still working on.

But they’re sure life itself is an accident of natural forces.. And the sun is another accident that just happens to be the perfect size, temperature, and composition to keep the earth well heated, lighted, stabilized, and energized by voltaic, photosynthesisic, nuclear, and electromagnetic power that we don’t yet fully understand, while being balanced and tethered to nothing but a precise rotation and orbit around the center of the Milky Way, and at the same time centering the earth’s precise rotation and orbit. The moon also regulates and stabilizes the earth’s orbit in ways we don’t yet fully understand, but all this precision is just a fantastic accident to non-believers – because to acknowledge God’s existence would means we need to follow a code of conduct that sometimes puts others ahead of ourselves

Plenty of hot air in this post but no proof. Science is proven by one simple fact, every discovery or theory has an army of other scientists trying to disprove it. When they can't said theory or discovery is generally accepted as fact. The problem with you god botherers is you have no proof, other than a fable written by a few Rabbi's. Not good enough I'm afraid.

Absolute proof is not needed to demonstrate God is real... There's ample circumstantial evidence: from the expanse of the Universe... to the precision and benefits of our sun... to the air we breath... to the production of the soil beneath our feet... to the innumerable and wondrous creatures we share the earth with... to the study of nuclear physics which begins to reveal the movement, power, and complexity of subatomic particles... to the sheer beauty and complexity of nature.. to the story of Jesus Christ and his life, which is commemorated every time ANYBODY jots down the date and the year.. All this is no accident -- so every poll ever taken on the subject proves MOST people believe in God. We don't have absolute proof because God employs various ways and means to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Asking for absolute proof that God really exists is like a baby in the womb wanting to know for certain if there's some kind of life for him beyond the womb -- where he's been trapped for months, ever since he can remember... That child doesn't need any proof. He'll find out soon enough---just like we will.. However, I remember reading about a man who prayed for 23 years, from about the time he was about 13, for a sign from God proving he was really there.. Several times a week he would go into his ritual prayer, begging God to please give him some sign he was really there.. One evening he picked up his remote to turn on the TV.. But instead, he put the remote down and went into his ritual prayer, "PLEASE GOD, GIVE ME SOME SIGN YOU'RE THERE!!!" As he beseeched God, he received a powerful blow to his neck that knocked him from his living room into his kitchen.. He was moderately injured.. The blow to his neck produced a mystifying mark, not quite like a burn mark, that persisted for months. Nothing in his house was damaged or moved except for himself, so he knew that no bolt of lightning snuck through the walls to nail him or anything.

As the man told his story to a reporter he said, "It wasn't the sort of sign I was looking for, but now I know for sure that God is there for me." I think that story demonstrates that God wants us to acknowledge and honor his existence as an act of faith, and not be a weak Doubting Thomas... If we can't come to realize God's existence by seeing and experiencing the wonders of his creation -- then we're a very "stiff necked" minority as he said.

[Caractacus]

This thread sort of reminds of "what If" World War II had never happened to interupt Joe Louis's Heavyweight reign.
as if Five Million people being killed or dying in World War II or Europe left in smoking ruins as a result of it wasn't any real concern.

[Kalan]

I think you will find that not many people doubt the existence of a chap called Jesus Christ who was crucified by the Romans for being what might be called a " conman " today. I think you will also find the bit about being able to perform miracles, having a virgin for a mother, and a spirit for a father is what millions of sensible folks struggle with.

A lot of people also struggle with the idea that a 100-megaton hydorgen bomb could completely destroy a major city, create a crater 20 miles across, and spread thermo-nuclear fire for 100 miles.. That's the power in an atom.. 17th Century scientists struggled with the knowledge that the sun was a million times the size of the earth, burned brighter than any conceivable fire on earth -- and yet the sun never burned out or got appreciably smaller over billions of years.. They couldn't figure out how such fantastic realities could possibly exist.. We understand more today -- but there are twice as many questions scientists struggle with in the 21st Century... such as dark matter, black holes, worm holes, and the warping of time and space... When one question is answered it creates 3 more... Hell, some people struggle with basic calculus, much less advanced astrophysics.

God's thoughts are as far above your thoughts as your thoughts are above a mite's thoughts.. Just because YOU can't understand something doesn't mean it can't be explained or is impossible...or that you won't be gifted with the intelligence to understand it in the next life... Thinking that they must understand everything right now leads humankind astray.. You need to accept the fact that certain things are beyond human understanding - just as designing a better and faster computer chip is beyond what a chimpanzee could ever accomplish.

[Kalan]

I think you will find that not many people doubt the existence of a chap called Jesus Christ who was crucified by the Romans for being what might be called a " conman " today. I think you will also find the bit about being able to perform miracles, having a virgin for a mother, and a spirit for a father is what millions of sensible folks struggle with.

A lot of people also struggle with the idea that a 100-megaton hydorgen bomb could completely destroy a major city, create a crater 20 miles across, and spread thermo-nuclear fire for 100 miles.. That's the power in an atom.. 17th Century scientists struggled with the knowledge that the sun was a million times the size of the earth, burned brighter than any conceivable fire on earth -- and yet the sun never burned out or got appreciably smaller over billions of years.. They couldn't figure out how such fantastic realities could possibly exist.. We understand more today -- but there are twice as many questions scientists struggle with in the 21st Century... such as dark matter, black holes, worm holes, and the warping of time and space... When one question is answered it creates 3 more... Hell, some people struggle with basic calculus, much less advanced astrophysics.

God's thoughts are as far above your thoughts as your thoughts are above a mite's thoughts.. Just because YOU can't understand something doesn't mean it can't be explained or is impossible...or that you won't be gifted with the intelligence to understand it in the next life... Thinking that they must understand everything right now leads humankind astray.. You need to accept the fact that certain things are beyond human understanding - just as designing a better and faster computer chip is beyond what a chimpanzee could ever accomplish.

Another diatribe that produces nothing. It is patently obvious all the god botherers in the world can't even agree between themselves as to which diety to follow. So much for that then.

As you say the proof of the power of the atom is irrefutable, no matter how long it took to discover it. Differing sets of belief based on nothing more than blind faith has no place in scientific research. The fact that some scientists are prone to superstition again has no relevance on their ability to carry out experiments and research.

Of course not - religion isn't science... But It took 1000’s of years before humankind unraveled the mysteries of the atom – and hundreds of years for ancient man to formulate simple astronomical equations such as those that revealed the earth’s orbit around the sun. Just think, you will find out about the existence of God in a fraction of that time. At the moment of your physical death the veil will be lifted from your eyes. You will know of God’s existence soon enough, if you don’t know already.

The Christian faith is followed by more people than any other belief... There's ample evidence in the form of miracles, prophecies, creation itself, the revelations of the saints, and the powerful readings in the scriptures that all point to Christianity as the one true faith. That why there’s 2.5 billion Christians and it’s the most prevalent belief... But the Christian denomination you belong to or what other faith you may follow is less important than the worship of God and the realization that he created the universe, loves us, and guides us through life. Whether you’re a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, or follower of some other faith, you still acknowledge and honor the existence of God. It’s not possible for men to have prefect knowledge and awareness of God or everything in this life – nor is it necessary. What’s necessary are prayers, faith, love, charity, hope, humility, kindness, responsibility, and other human virtues and actions -- and the knowledge that sins are forgiven for the sincerely repentant. It’s not too much to handle.

[wouter]

What’s necessary are prayers, faith, love, charity, hope, humility, kindness, responsibility, and other human virtues and actions -- and the knowledge that sins are forgiven for the sincerely repentant.

You forgot swimming.

[BoxBuzz]

Knowing what you don't know takes a faith of sorts. Humility.

To surmise that the constructs of our minds can contain all potentially definable concepts is imaginative to say the least.
If you are familiar with the most current mathematical concepts, you must know that some things are barely imaginable, and "knowing" certain things, may be beyond our minds limits.


This isn't to say we can't utilize and/or exploit certain "currently seemingly unknowable" constructs to our benefit.

And it could well be that Science and Religion may be wandering toward each other in rather near unimaginable ways.

And there seems to be good solid evidence that "observing any action imposes certain dynamics upon that which is observed".

And if you understand this feedback loop, you should be rather impressed.


Until then, there is a pretty good joke about this.

A scientist brags to god that "we just don't really need you anymore, in this day and age we can create just about anything that you "seemingly may" have created.

So God suggests to the scientist that a good bet to test this idea would be a challenge to "Make a human out of dirt" project.

The scientist agrees to the challenge.....he reaches down to get started by scooping up some dirt. When God chimes in..."wait a minute, get your own dirt.".

[BoxBuzz]

Knowing what you don't know takes a faith of sorts. Humility.

To surmise that the constructs of our minds can contain all potentially definable concepts is imaginative to say the least.
If you are familiar with the most current mathematical concepts, you must know that some things are barely imaginable, and "knowing" certain things, may be beyond our minds limits.


This isn't to say we can't utilize and/or exploit certain "currently seemingly unknowable" constructs to our benefit.

And it could well be that Science and Religion may be wandering toward each other in rather near unimaginable ways.

And there seems to be good solid evidence that "observing any action imposes certain dynamics upon that which is observed".

And if you understand this feedback loop, you should be rather impressed.


Until then, there is a pretty good joke about this.

A scientist brags to god that "we just don't really need you anymore, in this day and age we can create just about anything that you "seemingly may" have created.

So God suggests to the scientist that a good bet to test this idea would be a challenge to "Make a human out of dirt" project.

The scientist agrees to the challenge.....he reaches down to get started by scooping up some dirt. When God chimes in..."wait a minute, get your own dirt.".

I would suggest a number of " religions " have been doing that for millennia.


The joke was better than the feedback loop.

Well that's just a quantum physics statement. Rather strongly embraced by Hawkings and a few others. Seems mysterious...for now.

[Kalan]

Of course not - religion isn't science... But It took 1000’s of years before humankind unraveled the mysteries of the atom – and hundreds of years for ancient man to formulate simple astronomical equations such as those that revealed the earth’s orbit around the sun. Just think, you will find out about the existence of God in a fraction of that time. At the moment of your physical death the veil will be lifted from your eyes. You will know of God’s existence soon enough, if you don’t know already.

Again yet another diatribe asking ( or telling me ) to have faith!!!!!

What you are saying is, just as it took thousands of years for man ( science ) to discover the mysteries of the atom, one day, perhaps a million years hence someone will prove there is an entity known as god.

Nah, I don't buy that crap. The clue is in the word SPIRITUAL. There is NOTHING spiritual in the pursuance, and results of science.

The spiritual aspect is present in many things man will never understand in a million years... Although we may someday understand the fleeting existence of the most minute sub-atomic particles, and possibly even understand their weird and unfathomable behaviors -- that won't happen for a while... But we will never be able to construct these particles ourselves because of human limitations... Nor will we ever understand how life and free will exist.. And given the limits of human intelligence, lifespan, and our physical needs, exploration of the farthest reaches of the universe is possibly beyond us as well.. Creation itself speaks to a greater intelligence and the existence of the spiritual and eternal.

[Kalan]

Of course not - religion isn't science... But It took 1000’s of years before humankind unraveled the mysteries of the atom – and hundreds of years for ancient man to formulate simple astronomical equations such as those that revealed the earth’s orbit around the sun. Just think, you will find out about the existence of God in a fraction of that time. At the moment of your physical death the veil will be lifted from your eyes. You will know of God’s existence soon enough, if you don’t know already.

Again yet another diatribe asking ( or telling me ) to have faith!!!!!

What you are saying is, just as it took thousands of years for man ( science ) to discover the mysteries of the atom, one day, perhaps a million years hence someone will prove there is an entity known as god.

Nah, I don't buy that crap. The clue is in the word SPIRITUAL. There is NOTHING spiritual in the pursuance, and results of science.

God does NOT want us to prove his existence as a prosecutor would prove something in a court of law...let's say beyond a reasonable doubt... because many verdicts rendered by human juries have proven to be dead wrong.. Man is a fallible creature, even in groups of 12.. You see, humans often believe things that AREN'T true based on PROOF that convinced them at the time... and humans also believe things that ARE true based on simple faith... God prefers the later.

[Cutman Scabbers]

... he would never have died.

[Kalan]

Again yet another diatribe asking ( or telling me ) to have faith!!!!!

What you are saying is, just as it took thousands of years for man ( science ) to discover the mysteries of the atom, one day, perhaps a million years hence someone will prove there is an entity known as god.

Nah, I don't buy that crap. The clue is in the word SPIRITUAL. There is NOTHING spiritual in the pursuance, and results of science.

God does NOT want us to prove his existence as a prosecutor would prove something in a court of law...let's say beyond a reasonable doubt... because many verdicts rendered by human juries have proven to be dead wrong.. Man is a fallible creature, even in groups of 12.. You see, humans often believe things that AREN'T true based on PROOF that convinced them at the time... and humans also believe things that ARE true based on simple faith... God prefers the later.

Hence there are courts of appeal, and if new / further evidence comes to light jury verdicts can be overturned. Similarly with science if further research brings to light previously unknown data, improvements to products, medicines, chemicals etc, etc can be made.

Something superstitious people call god doesn't come into either equation.

But you know...there are only so many appellate courts you have access to. They’re fallible too. The process runs its course and innocent people are executed. And when defective products, medicines, and compounds take people’s lives, their relatives are back in court seeking justice. They may not get it because high priced lawyers can often distort facts and shift blame. People suffer.

And beyond such personal disasters that effect individuals, climate change could end the earth’s existence... Nuclear war could wipe out the human race... An errant asteroid, comet, or meteorite could pick us off if it’s large enough - or a powerful gamma ray burst could destroy the earth in an instant.

The human race is extremely vulnerable and we could be wiped out. We’re dependent on the trillions of cells in our bodies and our many complex systems, organs, senses, and functions. We’re dependent on the air we breathe, the sun, the soil, plants, animals, ecosystems, and natural phenomena such as rain, wind, the seasons, birds, bees, and other creatures to pollenate plants, and those plants taking in carbon dioxide through their stomata and releasing oxygen. These systems are all intricate by you feel they weren't created, they just happened.

You feel that all this lacks an author and design. That it was all a lucky accident for you that happenstance created all this along with you.

[Caractacus]

This thread sort of reminds of "what If" World War II had never happened to interupt Joe Louis's Heavyweight reign.
as if Five Million people being killed or dying in World War II or Europe left in smoking ruins as a result of it wasn't any real concern.

Far be it for me to try to correct you, but try 20 million Russians, 6 million Jewish people, approximately the same of other denominations that the Nazi's took exception to, plus the soldiers on all sides. I think it comes to one hell of a lot more than the 5 million you mention in any event.

Safe to say it knocks Joe Louis and his insignificant life into a cocked hat.

sorry typo.
I meant to type "Over 60 million people died as a result of World War 2 "

[Kalan]

Yes it certainly could ( hopefully with religious zealots as the primary targets ), but would you like to remind me us EXACTLY who is responsible for the creation of Nuclear Weapons? Don't think it was your super galactic sky daddy.

The only author and / or designer is simple evolution. No lucky accident, no creator, just million, and millions of years of evolution.

Man created nuclear weapons as a means of destroying the cities and military resources of foreign enemies... But man didn't create the atom...atoms were provided for man to use in productive ways -- and after thousands of years humans uncovered a method to unlock an atom's explosive power and deadly radiation.. It's an act of wanton destruction not creation. Man will never be able to construct an atom.

Just like a lion didn't create a gazelle -- the gazelle was provided for the lion.. He learned how to stalk, capture, and kill prey for his meals -- but that doesn't make him God, just a skillful hunter. He's using the gazelle as God intended. Man is misusing the atom -- which could lead to his own extinction..

The sun is a million times bigger than the earth and will someday destroy the earth.. God didn't intend stars to be eternal but they burn for a long time don't they? ... And our particular sun will live for billions of years more before it dies out... A human is lucky if he or she lives a mere hundred years...

Evolution exists but it's directed... the material that created the big bang billions of years ago didn't compose itself and touch itself off in such a way as to create all the wonders of the universe... That would be more unlikely than an explosion in a printing shop resulting in an unabridged dictionary.

[Caractacus]

Far be it for me to try to correct you, but try 20 million Russians, 6 million Jewish people, approximately the same of other denominations that the Nazi's took exception to, plus the soldiers on all sides. I think it comes to one hell of a lot more than the 5 million you mention in any event.

Safe to say it knocks Joe Louis and his insignificant life into a cocked hat.

sorry typo.
I meant to type "Over 60 million people died as a result of World War 2 "

Horrendous when you think about it? Lets hope nothing like it ever happens again.

approx 3 percent of the World population in 1940.
and you may as add the people who were killed in World War One because WWII was really a continuation of it
which were about 18 million people having died
(about 11 million military personal and 7 million civilians )
also about 20 million wounded.

[Kalan]

So how come your so called god gave man the ability to split the atom? Would this thing be in favour of wanton destruction?

Not at all.. But God gave man a powerful intellect and a free will.. He wants us to be happy and behave responsibly with our freedom.. He gave us the 10-Commandments and other guidelines to follow. He wants us to be happy and enjoy all the good things of his creation offers like: marital sex, beauty, food, drink, friends, conversation, song, dance, and things we create like music, movies, games, sports, amusement parks, swimming pools, shopping malls, cars, jet skis, surfboards, hang gliders, speed boats, and whatever we can create to responsibly have fun and enjoy life – but he also wants us to love people and make sacrifices for our wives, children, friends, and folks we don’t even know through acts of charity and generosity – and obviously he doesn’t want us to war with one other and destroy each other.

When you buy your teenager a car -- you want to make it easier for him to get to school, play basketball and football, date girls, and generally enjoy being a kid...but you expect him to behave responsibly with that gift and that freedom. You don’t want him to speed his car around recklessly boozing it up... partying it up... getting into fights... getting girls pregnant... staying out past curfew... getting into accidents so your insurance goes up and what not.. He has the freedom to disobey you.. You can only give him advice and guidance. You can’t live your kids’ lives for them. If they love and respect you they’ll turn out to be a good kids, but you can only love them and guide them into adulthood as best you can.. One or the other may disappoint you as some men often sadden God.. We’re children of God.

Man rejected God before. But he still loves us and still wants us to be truly free. Therefore, he lets us choose evil if that’s the direction we’re bent on. Everyone knows God brought the great flood on the world and saved a remnant of humanity on the Ark. Humankind turned away from God and toward violence, hatred, war, and wickedness -- just like a teenager who can’t get his act together and act responsibly.

I believe the world will come together in peace and prosperity and solve our problems and disputes – without any further world wars and nuclear conflagration. And that would be great I’m sure you’ll agree. Most people on earth believe in God, but believing in God is very easy. Being a good person is hard.

[Kalan]

golden oldie... You're definitely one of the faithless scoffers and unbelievers God spoke of. Answer these questions. Why do most people on earth believe God exists? ... How do you explain the sun being the perfect size and distance, and temperature to stabilize earth's orbit while providing an appropriate amount of heat, light, energy and photosynthesis to sustain life on earth for billions of years??? The sun didn’t evolve, adapt, blend, modify and revise itself from ancestral models, until billions of years of evolution finally made it the perfect prototype to provide all its many benefits to man. It has no parent but the big bang and is visibly unchanging for billions of years. its function and value have never failed us for a minute.

If the sun weren’t there we couldn’t exist. If our atmosphere weren’t there we couldn’t exist. If our soil was barren we couldn’t exist. If our earthly orbit and rotation, or the moon’s orbit became erratic or was disrupted, man’s existence would become tenuous. None of these things evolved or perfected themselves through time. You take life for granted without thinking about it. Your God is evolution. To you it’s an invisible power like gravity, thought, love, magnetic repulsion, or microwaves.

You put your faith in evolution, but you don’t want to go back to the origin of our universe. To the big bang. No atheist has ever given me a plausible answer on this. How does evolution explain the big bang? How did evolution form and detonate the infinitely small particle that exploded into our wondrous universe??? ... Although mortal living creatures change and adapt to their environments through micro-evolution and through generational adaption - celestial bodies come into being and are here for the duration in one form or another. No form of matter, atom, or subatomic particle evolves. Material things don’t redesign and perfect their own function through millions of generations of reproduction. Evolution can’t explain how or why they function so intricately and superbly.