ALL-TIME CELTIC FIGHTERS

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 05 Mar 2006, 03:53

There are 6 Celtic nations: Irish, Scottish, Cornish, Welsh, Manx and Breton.

I may have made a couple mistakes and may have contradicted my all-time Irish list. Call me on it if I did. I'm taking a wild stab here:

1. Bob Fitzsimmons (Cornish)
2. Jimmy McLarnin (Irish)
3. Mickey Walker (Irish-American)
4. Jimmy Wilde (Welsh)
5. Jim Driscoll (Welsh[of Irish parentage])
6. Terry McGovern (Irish-American)
7. Jack Dempsey (Irish-American)
8. Johnny Kilbane (Irish-American)
9. Mike Gibbons (Irish-American)
10. Packy MacFarland (Irish-American)
11. Billy Conn (Irish-American)
12. Gene Tunney (Irish-American)
13. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey (Irish)
14. Benny Lynch (Scottish[of Irish parentage]))
15. Tommy Loughran (Irish-American)
16. Jack Britton (Irish-American)
17. Young Griffo (Irish-Australian)
18. Tommy Gibbons (Irish-American)
19. John L. Sullivan (Irish-American)
20. Jimmy Barry (Irish-American)
21. Freddie Welsh (Welsh)
22. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien (Irish-American)
23. Jack Dillon (Irish-American)
24. Ken Buchanan (Scottish)
25. Jim Corbett (Irish-American)
26. Tom Sharkey (Irish)
27. Ike Weir (Irish)
28. Jack McAuliffe (Irish)
29. Barry McGuigan (Irish)
30. Mike McTigue (Irish)

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 05 Mar 2006, 17:46

Hello, Nero2000; as you can see, I'm a Scottish descendant; are you Irish?; because Nero is a Italian surname.

Really, I was moved, thrilled, when you put the name of great writers, very very good! I had only an objection: G. B. Shaw was a great, but Samuel Beckett is, with Eugène Ionesco, the best playwright from 300 years to nowadays; I had two personal letters from Ionesco, and nearly all Beckett and Ionesco wrote (but only in Spanish and French).

The relation between Literature and Boxing is profound. I remains Dylan Thomas, a Celtic, when he mentioned Dempsey and Tunney in Portrait of the artist as a young dog. I remains, too, a comic account of G. B. Shaw of a fight between Joe Beckett and Georges Carpentier. In Argentina, one of our greatest writers, Eduardo Mallea, many times mentioned and nominated for the Nobel prize, was amateur university student champion, pupil of Willie Gould, an exceptional Argentinian fighter who born in England. Julio Cortázar wrote one of his best stories, Torito, based on Justo Suárez (Little Bull); and J. L. Borges and other loved boxing, too.

Does you remember Tommy Farr? He fought all the rounds against Joe Louis (!!!); the father of T. Farr was Irish.

You remember Eduardo Corletti! When I was a little boy, Goyo Peralta, Jorge Fernández and Eduardo Corletti were my idols! On Firpo and Bonavena: as you thinks Dempsey KO'ed Firpo in two, well, Firpo KO'ed Dempsey in one, but not recognized by the referee, and, you know, Firpo beat any others good boys. Ringo was very good, in the some level of G. Peralta or E. Corletti, but Firpo, with modesty, was better than "Ringo". And the number of rounds isn't always the measure when the fighters are of the same quality: look Zale-Graziano III, of only three rounds, few rounds, but what a rounds! Is the intensity of a fight, I thinks.

This is a very good surprise; the best for you!

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 05 Mar 2006, 17:50

My memory is weak, look this boy I left:

Jim Watt

Sorry!

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 05 Mar 2006, 18:02

Don't forget the Irish-American author and my fellow Chicagoan James T Farrell. A great writer and a boxing fanatic.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 05 Mar 2006, 18:27

Studs Lonnigan is a great read.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 05 Mar 2006, 18:42

Expug

Along with the Danny O'Neil Tetraology, which has interchangeable characters with Studs Lonigan, it's my favorite American novel of all time. Almost every character in it is heavily based on someone Farrell actually knew. William "Studs" Lonigan is really William "Studs" Cunningham who died in March of 1929 at 7822 S Luella in the South Shore area, and who is buried in Holy Sepulchre Cemetery in Alsip.

Numerous boxers are mentioned in the book, and in one chapter, the father of Studs buddy Johnny O'Brien says (in 1916) that the two greatest fighters ever, were Young Griffo and Jack Dempsey the Nonpareil. Farrell somehow even manages to mention guys like Jim Coffey, Benny Yanger and Charlie White.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 05 Mar 2006, 18:57

I agree Seamus it is also one of my favorites. Growing up in and living in Chicago its very interesting to hear about some of the old Southside neighborhoods. It sounds like Weary Reilly was a pretty good scraper too.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 05 Mar 2006, 19:09

Expug

Weary Reilly was based on a guy by the name of Frank Egan who went to jail for raping a girl at 62nd-South Park (King Dr) His picture appeared in the papers a few times during the trial, and he looked nothing like the character Farrell based Reilly on. He actually looked like a pretty boy with glasses. Then again, when you're facing a long jail sentence, it makes sense to try to look as inoffensive as possible.

Another interesting character in book was the Jewish kid Philip Rolfe, who converts to Catholicism and marries one of Studs' sisters. He was actually based on Louis Lederer who later became a close associate of Tony Accardo.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 05 Mar 2006, 19:17

Thanks for the info Seamus ,Im gonna read the trilogy again. Gotta find it though.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 05 Mar 2006, 19:41

Seamus and Expug,
I remember Irish-American Eugene O'Neill. And from the huge Chicago, Thornton Wilder (born in Canada) and Saul Bellow (not born in Chicago) and Carl Sandburg. As you see, I'm so far of your immense metro (Chicago-Milwaukee had a population of 11,000,000), but I always thinks in your beautiful city, one of the axis of the world. In 1965-1966, my father was Professor in the University of De Kalb, and he always remeber his fascination for Chicago. Thanks for your facts (Jame T. Farrell and the other stories); best regards

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 05 Mar 2006, 20:27

Thanks Martin

spikedog8 · Post by **spikedog8** » 05 Mar 2006, 21:57

Did everyone forget about Tommy Milligan. He fought before record crowds in the '20's? He was one of Scotland's best fighters ever, probably the best. On the cover of 1925 Ring Magazine. British Empire Champion, European Champion, and Commonwealth Champion. If anyone had more info on him, I would like to know.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 06 Mar 2006, 03:37

Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:Hello, Nero2000; as you can see, I'm a Scottish descendant; are you Irish?; because Nero is a Italian surname.

Really, I was moved, thrilled, when you put the name of great writers, very very good! I had only an objection: G. B. Shaw was a great, but Samuel Beckett is, with Eugène Ionesco, the best playwright from 300 years to nowadays; I had two personal letters from Ionesco, and nearly all Beckett and Ionesco wrote (but only in Spanish and French).

The relation between Literature and Boxing is profound. I remains Dylan Thomas, a Celtic, when he mentioned Dempsey and Tunney in Portrait of the artist as a young dog. I remains, too, a comic account of G. B. Shaw of a fight between Joe Beckett and Georges Carpentier. In Argentina, one of our greatest writers, Eduardo Mallea, many times mentioned and nominated for the Nobel prize, was amateur university student champion, pupil of Willie Gould, an exceptional Argentinian fighter who born in England. Julio Cortázar wrote one of his best stories, Torito, based on Justo Suárez (Little Bull); and J. L. Borges and other loved boxing, too.

Does you remember Tommy Farr? He fought all the rounds against Joe Louis (!!!); the father of T. Farr was Irish.

You remember Eduardo Corletti! When I was a little boy, Goyo Peralta, Jorge Fernández and Eduardo Corletti were my idols! On Firpo and Bonavena: as you thinks Dempsey KO'ed Firpo in two, well, Firpo KO'ed Dempsey in one, but not recognized by the referee, and, you know, Firpo beat any others good boys. Ringo was very good, in the some level of G. Peralta or E. Corletti, but Firpo, with modesty, was better than "Ringo". And the number of rounds isn't always the measure when the fighters are of the same quality: look Zale-Graziano III, of only three rounds, few rounds, but what a rounds! Is the intensity of a fight, I thinks.

This is a very good surprise; the best for you!

Yes, I am of Irish descent(75%). The rest is Scottish(my mother's maiden name is Ross). The "Nero" handle is a long story!

That you would choose Beckett over Shaw is interesting. "Pygmalion" is one of the most influential plays of all time. Many movies are based on its "Poor person gets to live rich life" formula. Shaw's influence over here in America and in England far outstrips the two gents you mentioned. BUT...America isn't the final word on everything, so you may be right. I personally think Ibsen, Strindberg, Chekhov and Tennessee Williams are the greatest playwrights of the last 150 years. Just my opinion.

You are right about the connection between writers and boxing. Hemingway, Jack London, Norman Mailer, Joyce Carol Oates and Oscar Wilde were/are all huge fans.

Farr's Dad was Irish?? I didn't know that. Interesting. Farr is always so closely identified with Wales.

Regarding Firpo vs. Bonavena, if you look closely at their records Ringo beat many more top contenders than Firpo. Luis beat very old, washed-up versions of Bill Brennan and Jess Willard. Other than that he lost to almost every good fighter he faced(like Harry Wills). And- barring the moment he sent Dempsey out of the ring- was completely destroyed by the Manassa Mauler. Conversely, Ringo gave absolute hell to THREE world champions in Frazier, Ali(the GREATEST) and Patterson. He was a top contender for the better part of a decade. These credentials are hard to argue with.

Glad you are enjoying this. So am I!

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 06 Mar 2006, 03:39

[quote="spikedog8"]Did everyone forget about Tommy Milligan. He fought before record crowds in the '20's? He was one of Scotland's best fighters ever, probably the best.

Better than Benny Lynch??

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 06 Mar 2006, 20:28

Nero3000 wrote: Farr's Dad was Irish?? I didn't know that. Interesting. Farr is always so closely identified with Wales.

From Cork I think.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Mar 2006, 20:48

Tommy Farr's son Gary, instead of becoming a boxer, was a minor pop star in England in the mid 60's. He was the lead singer of a band called Gary Farr and the T-Bones which included Keith Emerson of Emerson-Lake and Palmer fame.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 06 Mar 2006, 21:12

Nero, Seamus, Expug,
dear friends, excused me because my "English" --as you can see--, is very bad, then, I can't to take part and to share as I really wants. This atmosphere of Books and Boxing (both with "B") is like a beautiful meeting of friends, and in Chicago! (Nero, are you too in Chicago?) Córdoba is a big city, too, with more than 1,500,000 inhabitants, but very far of the Chicago's 11,000,000!
As I knows, Tommy Farr born on March 12, 1913, in Blaen Clydach, a little town near of Tonypandy, in Rhondda, Wales; his father, a miner as the many men of Blaen Clydach, was George Farr, born in Cork, Ireland, and was a bare knuckle fighter.
On Tennessee Williams, I admire him, but the modern theater must to continue the school of Beckett, Ionesco, Genet, Pinter and others. T. Williams had a masterpiece in One Arm, on a fighter history.
Another Celtics I remember now: Benny Lynch, Dai Dower and Walt McGowan...
Best regards for you!

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 06 Mar 2006, 21:29

Thanks for that information on George Farr, Martin . I did not know he was from Cork , or that he was a bareknuckle fighter. Always good to hear from you. Best regards to you as well.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Mar 2006, 21:30

Forgot to mention, another Chicago author who was a big boxing fan was Nelson Algren. His riveting novel "Never Come Morning" is about a Polish-American amateur boxer with dreams of stardom, who gets caught up with street gangs, prostitutes and finally murder. Algren himself worked out at the YMCA well into his 50's. A friend of his said that they hit the heavy bag like a mad man.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 07 Mar 2006, 23:13

According to this book on Celtic fighters, Mysterious Billy Smith was an Irish-Canadian. He was born Amos Smith in Halifax to Irish-immigrant parents. But isn't "Smith" an English name??

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 07 Mar 2006, 23:14

BTW...check out the new Nat'l Geographic. BIG article on the Celtic peoples of today.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 07 Mar 2006, 23:35

Nero3000 wrote:According to this book on Celtic fighters, Mysterious Billy Smith was an Irish-Canadian. He was born Amos Smith in Halifax to Irish-immigrant parents. But isn't "Smith" an English name??

Evidently the name Smith in Ireland is derived from two sources. From the Gaelic Mac An Gabhann, and from numerous English settlers.

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 08 Mar 2006, 22:50

Nero3000 wrote:According to this book on Celtic fighters, Mysterious Billy Smith was an Irish-Canadian. He was born Amos Smith in Halifax to Irish-immigrant parents. But isn't "Smith" an English name??

whats the book called

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 09 Mar 2006, 14:51

thunderfromdownunder wrote:
Nero3000 wrote:According to this book on Celtic fighters, Mysterious Billy Smith was an Irish-Canadian. He was born Amos Smith in Halifax to Irish-immigrant parents. But isn't "Smith" an English name??
whats the book called

The Fighting Irish. You can get it on Amazon.com

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 09 Mar 2006, 14:54

Here are the top Irish-born pugs according to Patrick Myler(The Ring's Ireland corr.) as of a decade ago:

1. Jimmy McLarnin
2. Barry McGuigan
3. NP Jack Dempsey
4. Jack McAuliffe
5. Mike McTigue
6. Dave McAuley
7. Rinty Monaghan
8. Tom Sharkey
9. George Gardner
10. Jim Coffey

The only glaring ommision is Ike Weir. And putting McGuigan at no. 2 is highly debatable. But overall a good list.