The Duran of the Hagler fight vs GGG/Toney/Hopkins/Jones

[Keko]

Boxers from hw normally go P4P all time because they view the overall results and career. On any such list is among the top 10 are Ali and Louis. The funny thing is not to put them.
I must admit that I have not even heard of such a strange criterion.

[Ezzard]

All the natural MWs would be favourites.

Duran would be nip and tuck with them all. He was better at everything that Toney was great at. The fight with Hopkins would be closer than Duran's fight with Hagler.

Golovkin would also be a very close fight.

Jones had the speed and this was what Duran couldn't cope with at the stage of his career. But he was still the most accurate puncher Jones ever faced.

[elmersalsa]

After The Hands of Stone reached the 154lbs limit, it was downhill for him in terms of speed. The weight classes of 154 and beyond were too much for his 5'7" frame. Plus, he was above the 30 year old mark with more than 80 fights under his belt already. It had to slow him down at some point.

Success in boxing is about speed. Really, most of the sports in succeeding at it, it's about the speed. Even though Duran might not win most of the time after "No Mas" and going up in those weight classes, he was still competitive in most fights, but couldn't win in some of them because his opponents then were stronger, bigger, faster, taller and younger than he. Also, in many of his fights at middleweight, the proper dedication and conditioning waned. But, besides all that, he gave us unforgettable performances like in his fights with Marvelous, Davey Moore, Pipino Cuevas and Iran Barkley. What a fighter! A top 5 great pound for pound? Most definitely. You gotta give it to him. He earned that place in boxing history.

[Kalan]

I have to agree. I could never place a Heavyweight above him for patently obvious reasons. In the MAIN they are ( and have always been ) slow, cumbersome, predictable, and fairly limited as far as skill is concerned.

Personally I would NEVER rank a Heavyweight in ANY top 25 ATG's. I would fully accept SRR, and Henry Armstrong being rated above Duran ( though I might not agree with it ) but a Heavyweight? No ferkin chance.

The above is ridiculous stereotyping and broad brushing Heavyweights... Heavyweights are no more predictable than any other weight, and if they're slow, cumbersome, predictable, and unskilled they're not ATG's whatever division they're in... Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, the Klitschko Bros, David Haye, and Anthony Joshua don't fit your stereotype... None of them charged in face first, fouling, pushing, shoving, and head butting the Hell out of scores of cherry-picked opponents like Henry Armstrong did -- and none of then lost 21 times like Armstrong.

I like Salvador Sanchez.. Gene Tunney.. Floyd Mayweather.. Wille Pep.. and Eder Jofre for my top 5... AJ would surely crush Tunney, but it's a P4P list

Today I like Vasyl Lomachenko, Gennady Golovkin, Terence Crawford, Sergei Kovalev, and Anthony Joshua

Funny how both Louis and Ali claimed neither of themselves was anywhere near as good as SRR. Seeing as those 2 are generally accepted as being the best 2 heavies ever, their criteria is good enough for me. All one needs to do is extend it, and look for other lower weight fighters to rate higher than them, and by extension any other Heavyweight.

Spare me another of your biased opinions about Robinson's greatness, because I am simply not interested. Suffice to say millions of people have actually SEEN Robinson's prowess and arrived at the conclusion he was the best fighter ever to lace em up.

Unlike our debate on the other thread in which you expect me to accept the superiority of something NO ONE has ever seen.

Spare you the FACTS you mean!!! You're not interested in facts---only myth, legend, hype, and generational bias... Robinson was a great fighter. Some posters claim I say he's a bum, simply because I point out the FACT that he was knocked down hard in several fights and sent staggering around the ring in others... I point out that he has a Middleweight Title defense record of 3-3, which is good but not particularly outstanding... That he padded his record with 150 easily defeated boxers in non-title fights.. You generally can't defend your title against super easy cream puffs, so before and after Robinson won world titles he padded his record with exhibition level opponents...

Robert Duran also padded his record a great deal... He was possibly the greatest Lightweight Champion, but he didn't actually defend his title an amazing number of times.. He fought many non-title fights against easily dispatched opponents...some with 0,1, 2, or 3 wins who he easily knocked out... if you look at the records of Golovkin, Toney, Hopkins, Roy Jones, and most modern day champs, they have few to none of these super easy opponents on their records and most all over their opponents during their reigns are title challengers... After Robinson beat Jake LaMotta for the Middleweight Title he fought 8 quick gimme non-title fights with easily beaten opponents before defending his title for the 1st time and losing to Turpin. Most boxing commissions will not allow boxers to operate that way today.

Ali called a lot of boxers "The Greatest" to their face... Including Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, and Gene Tunney... But generally he called himself the greatest... Louis said he didn't think he could ever have beaten Marciano, but I'm sure he said that to be humble, not because he believed it for a minute, because it's ridiculous. Robinson was asked who the greatest fighter in the world was and he said "Willie Pep" ... Some boxers try to have a little humility. Mike Tyson refused to say he could have beaten the Klitschko's. "Fighters get better every generation, not worse" he said. Plus boxers on a given day say something, and on another day say something else. I don't form my opinions on the very fluid opinions of others.

[Keko]

Boxers from hw normally go P4P all time because they view the overall results and career. On any such list is among the top 10 are Ali and Louis. The funny thing is not to put them.
I must admit that I have not even heard of such a strange criterion.

Sorry Keko but p4 p rankings were not based on the guys career. They were based on the supposition if this guy was equal in weight to other ranked fighters ( particularly guys heavier than him,) he would win.

Whether or not it has been hijacked in recent times to include resume's and / or results, i have no idea, and less interest.

P4P lists is cut by the successes in his career results, victories and not on who would beat whom and who has the better skills. These things are often unrealistic to estimate but does not make sense that way.




edit - Espn
The fighters in this list have been assessed on four main criteria:

In-ring performance: A subjective measure and, to some degree, unquantifiable, but an important one. There's more to being considered a great fighter than compiling wins and collecting championship belts. There's also the manner in which the fights are fought and the wins are won -- the skill, the talent, the heart. Muhammad Ali brought a whole new style and panache to heavyweight boxing. Rocky Marciano and Evander Holyfield each defined fighting heart. Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd Mayweather Jr. at times displayed flashes of skill and superiority of a kind rarely seen in a boxing ring. At his peak, Mike Tyson didn't so much knock out his opponents as send them flying across the ring.

Achievements: Blistering power or silky smooth boxing moves aren't enough. Boxing's landscape is littered with fighters whose achievements did not end up matching their skill or talent. Almost all the fighters on this list fought at or near the pinnacle of the sport for years -- most either won multiple world titles or defended one title multiple times. Stanley Ketchel defended his middleweight championship 11 times in a short life that ended at 24. Harry Greb won the middleweight title despite being half blind in one eye, and went on to fight light heavyweights and heavyweights. George Foreman won the heavyweight championship of the world, lost it, retired, came back 10 years later and regained the crown at age 45. Henry Armstrong held world championships at three weights at the same time.

The exceptions all have good reasons for being so. Sam Langford, for example, was denied the opportunity to ever contest a world championship bout. Marcel Cerdan was injured during the first defense of his middleweight title and died in a plane crash before he could win back his crown.

Dominance: A factor that arguably works against those from eras with deeper talent pools, but one which rewards those who stood out from among their peers. Joe Louis was heavyweight champion for 11 years. Robinson suffered just one defeat in his first 123 bouts. Cerdan lost only four times in 110 fights, and each of them was due to disqualification, dodgy judging or injury. Pep allegedly once won a round without throwing a punch.

Mainstream appeal: This is the wild-card element. It's a disadvantage for most modern fighters, who compete in a time when boxing is no longer a mainstream sport, but it also conversely greatly boosts the candidacies of those few contemporary boxers who have achieved crossover recognition. In particular, it substantially elevates De La Hoya and Tyson, two boxers who might otherwise not be as high on this list -- or even on it at all. De La Hoya is perhaps the only active boxer with widespread name recognition outside of boxing circles, and nobody brought a buzz to the sport in recent decades to anything like the degree of Tyson -- who, for better or worse, remains synonymous with modern boxing in the public mind.

[Kalan]

De La Hoya is perhaps the only active boxer with widespread name recognition outside of boxing circles, and nobody brought a buzz to the sport in recent decades to anything like the degree of Tyson -- who, for better or worse, remains synonymous with modern boxing in the public mind.

De La Hoya is not an active boxer... Tyson may be in the public mind in the USA, but he's 50 years old and long retired, and Boxing is more of a worldwide sport today.. Foreign born boxers dominate the world titles today, and this is one reason Americans are clinging to the past.

Not only are Americans heavily biased in favor of Americans...I've noticed that many ATG P4P lists are composed mostly of boxers from their author's generation... Nat Fleischer was born in 1887 and he always had Jack Johnson, Jim Corbett, Jim Jeffries, and Bob Fitzsimmons in his top 10... Nat Loubet was born in 1912...Bert Sugar was born in 1937... Dan Rafael grew up in the 1970's and 80's... Their ratings reflect their generations… It will be no different in 40 to 50 years - boxers from this generation will dominate ATG lists. As a kid who grew up in the 1950's and '60's, a well repeated theme of the day was that Boxing was dying and there were no great fighters anymore... Many people were calling for Boxing to be outlawed.

Every time Ray Robinson lost to a Ralph Jones or a Carmen Basilio you read how he was over hyped, lost to a loser, had a padded record, and was beaten up by small, short, crude guys like Basilio and "plodders" like Fullmer.. As a child I was amazed how harsh critics could be.. I was a big fan of SRR and my dad, brothers and I would watch his fights on free TV. Robinson was one of the most glamorous sports stars of the day, along with Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Bill Russell, Bart Star, and Pele... SRR drove a Flamingo "don't call it pink" Cadillac, dressed to kill, straightened his hair, was accompanied by killer babes, and owned had a killer smile. He was one of a kind in image creating.

Fans were split on Robinson. Some adored him, some literally hated him. The kind of negative things written about Robinson in the 50’s and Clay/Ali in the 60’s softened my view of criticism in general. Every day in the early 1960’s you read hate stories about John F. Kennedy and what a horrific president he was. Most critics speak from emotion and not reason – just as most idolizers do in their over-the-top praise of their idols... If people stuck to facts, instead of nursing prejudices, hating and idolizing - they would have a better chance of getting it right.

[Keko]

De La Hoya is perhaps the only active boxer with widespread name recognition outside of boxing circles, and nobody brought a buzz to the sport in recent decades to anything like the degree of Tyson -- who, for better or worse, remains synonymous with modern boxing in the public mind.

De La Hoya is not an active boxer... Tyson may be in the public mind in the USA, but he's 50 years old and long retired, and Boxing is more of a worldwide sport today.. Foreign born boxers dominate the world titles today, and this is one reason Americans are clinging to the past.

Not only are Americans heavily biased in favor of Americans...I've noticed that many ATG P4P lists are composed mostly of boxers from their author's generation... Nat Fleischer was born in 1887 and he always had Jack Johnson, Jim Corbett, Jim Jeffries, and Bob Fitzsimmons in his top 10... Nat Loubet was born in 1912...Bert Sugar was born in 1937... Dan Rafael grew up in the 1970's and 80's... Their ratings reflect their generations… It will be no different in 40 to 50 years - boxers from this generation will dominate ATG lists. As a kid who grew up in the 1950's and '60's, a well repeated theme of the day was that Boxing was dying and there were no great fighters anymore... Many people were calling for Boxing to be outlawed.

Every time Ray Robinson lost to a Ralph Jones or a Carmen Basilio you read how he was over hyped, lost to a loser, had a padded record, and was beaten up by small, short, crude guys like Basilio and "plodders" like Fullmer.. As a child I was amazed how harsh critics could be.. I was a big fan of SRR and my dad, brothers and I would watch his fights on free TV. Robinson was one of the most glamorous sports stars of the day, along with Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Bill Russell, Bart Star, and Pele... SRR drove a Flamingo "don't call it pink" Cadillac, dressed to kill, straightened his hair, was accompanied by killer babes, and owned had a killer smile. He was one of a kind in image creating.

Fans were split on Robinson. Some adored him, some literally hated him. The kind of negative things written about Robinson in the 50’s and Clay/Ali in the 60’s softened my view of criticism in general. Every day in the early 1960’s you read hate stories about John F. Kennedy and what a horrific president he was. Most critics speak from emotion and not reason – just as most idolizers do in their over-the-top praise of their idols... If people stuck to facts, instead of nursing prejudices, hating and idolizing - they would have a better chance of getting it right.

Now he is not active this was 2003 year.ESPN then wrote.

[Kalan]

Right Keko... The year wasn't included in the quote... And I fault the ESPN article for rhapsodizing amazing feats of old that weren't that fabulous.

Defending a World Title 11 times isn't close to the all time record -- whether Ketchel lived or died...

Greb's eyesight is a subject of speculation...

Foreman stepped over more deserving challengers to get his shot at Moorer.. He beat an accidental Heavyweight Champion in 3rd Title Attempt as an old man - then after a miracle win he put the Lineal Heavyweight Title in mothballs by fighting 5th rate challengers.

Armstrong never tried to defend the Featherweight Title after he went to Lightweight.. He abandoned 126 because he couldn't make the weight limit anymore.. He was a full Lightweight so essentially he didn't hold the Featherweight Title anymore.. And Barney Ross wasn't a real Welterweight.. Ross fought as a Lightweight for as late as his 62nd fight... He never filled out to a full Welterweight and the last fight of his life came against Armstrong... So what you really had was Armstrong moving up to Lightweight and staying there.

And Armstrong never really tried for the Middleweight Title because Ceferino Garcia was a bogus Middleweight Champion.

[loudon]

golden oldie,

Tell that to Lou Del Valle, Tarver, Johnson, Danny Green, Denis Lebedev, and Maccarinelli. I suspect they would laugh even louder than me at that crap.

If you are going to talk about a guy with great skill who could hit and rarely get hit, try Mayweather.

A terrible post.

Yes, Roy relied heavily on his reflexes, but he was still immensely skilled.

Shot selection, timing and accuracy is all skill.

You're saying he wasn't a superb boxer because of what ended up happening when he fought way past his best?

It's just ignorant. And why have you mentioned Del Valle?

[Kalan]

Del Valle knocked a prime Roy Jones right on his kiester with a straight left from a southpaw stance... Tarver hit Roy much harder with the same shot...

That might be a reason to mention Del Valle, who didn't pack any power... Roy had a few holes in his defense and he was no Mayweather.

[elmersalsa]

Not too many boxers could be the great Floyd Mayweather, Jr, Kalan.

[loudon]

ClivePatrickLyons,

I agree with most of your comment's ''elmersalsa'' Hands of Stone was a certainly a complete fighter give him PED'S and he destroys RJJ career Toney although great tactician wasn't better then Duran even at Middleweight a weight that he [Toney] struggled to make I would have Duran by close split dec over Toney B-Hop would give Duran trouble especially at Middleweight his best fighting weight probably win a very close dec in a very competitive fight but I still wouldn't count out Duran and GGG well he aint in a million year's Koing Duran he's to slow with his punch's and Duran to fast between the ear's to be Ko'd by one of the slowest Middleweight Champion's in history Duran would certainly have been prepared for GGG power shot's knowing that he's got sleeping pill's in both glove's GGG by un dec much the same as the Hagler fight with Duran tiring down the stretch.

Duran with PEDS would have destroyed Roy's career?

[loudon]

golden oldie,

The above post tells me you buy into this nonsensical theory that Jones Jr suffered his terrible defeats because he gained a few pounds then lost it again over a period of 14 months. Good for you, I don't.

As for the second part of your post the answer is quite simple. Great defensive reflexes ALONE are not enough to warrant ATG status, which is why some fighters can still compete at the highest level when their reflexes desert them, and others ( like Jones ) become punchbags and get KTFO by guys who are nothing to be excited about.

Roy didn't lose a few pounds over a 14 month period.

He burnt muscle in a 2 month period.

Look what happened to Chris Byrd, Antonio Tarver, and Chad Dawson when they all lost muscle.

Roy was 35, and he'd had 50 fights across 5 divisions before coming back to LHW. He was never the same after that. Again, yes, he heavily relied on his reflexes. I agree with you. But again, you are completely ignorant if you think that's all he had.

Of course Roy is an ATG.

[loudon]

Kalan,

Oh shut your sucker you stupid fking jaggoff.. Now you think I'm a Super Hero who fights crime, somebody lobotomized you at birth.. Duran forgot so much about Boxing that He quit cold in the middle of a fight - he was frustrated at not being able to land punches - and he lost to Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims... You have to have forgotten a lot about Boxing to accomplish those kind of losses.

GGG never forgot a thing and is 36-0 with 33 KO wins...a mark Duran never achieved -- and 36-0 Kell Brook, who entered the ring at 175 which was heavier than Golovkin, would beat the ass off Duran.. Duran lost, and got knocked on his ass a couple times by the less than big and powerful Lightweight, Estaban De Jeusus... And Brook would smash De Jesus as well.. Guys like Martinez, Chavez, Saunders, Jacobs, Quillin, Cotto, Canelo and other big name Middleweights ran their ass off from a GGG fight.. Golovkin's resume would be right up there if those duckers didn't know for sure that Golovkin would knock them out. Nobody feared pudgy little Duran like that. A lot of 2nd rate people beat his ass.

If you don't think Duran would have beaten GG, that's cool. But a lot of what you've posted is silly.

GG is a great fighter and he's in his prime. But he's never fought an ATG and we don't know what the future holds. You can't hold Duran's losses against him, especially the ones when he was old and 4 divisions above his peak weight.

You have to put things into context. GG hasn't fought any guys like Benitez, Leonard and Hearns at higher weights.

Regarding Brook, I don't think he'd have beaten Duran at WW or JMW.

[loudon]

golden oldie,

I have to agree. I could never place a Heavyweight above him for patently obvious reasons. In the MAIN they are ( and have always been ) slow, cumbersome, predictable, and fairly limited as far as skill is concerned.

Personally I would NEVER rank a Heavyweight in ANY top 25 ATG's. I would fully accept SRR, and Henry Armstrong being rated above Duran ( though I might not agree with it ) but a Heavyweight? No ferkin chance.

What the hell are you talking about?

[loudon]

Kalan,

The above is ridiculous stereotyping and broad brushing Heavyweights... Heavyweights are no more predictable than any other weight, and if they're slow, cumbersome, predictable, and unskilled they're not ATG's whatever division they're in... Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, the Klitschko Bros, David Haye, and Anthony Joshua don't fit your stereotype... None of them charged in face first, fouling, pushing, shoving, and head butting the Hell out of scores of cherry-picked opponents like Henry Armstrong did -- and none of then lost 21 times like Armstrong.

I like Salvador Sanchez.. Gene Tunney.. Floyd Mayweather.. Wille Pep.. and Eder Jofre for my top 5... AJ would surely crush Tunney, but it's a P4P list

Today I like Vasyl Lomachenko, Gennady Golovkin, Terence Crawford, Sergei Kovalev, and Anthony Joshua

You've made some good points but then you've let yourself down with your comments regarding Armstrong.

Yes, the guys that you listed didn't lose 21 times. But then again, they didn't have nearly 200 fights like he did.

[loudon]

Del Valle knocked a prime Roy Jones right on his kiester with a straight left from a southpaw stance... Tarver hit Roy much harder with the same shot...

That might be a reason to mention Del Valle, who didn't pack any power... Roy had a few holes in his defense and he was no Mayweather.

Roy was extremely hard to hit clean in his prime. His defence was unconventional, but it was still great.

He only went down against Del Valle, because his back foot slipped on the wet canvas, which had been wiped with a towel on 2 previous occasions. You can see it clearly in the replay.

[loudon]

golden oldie,

The ignorance is coming from one quarter only. YOURS.

I have browsed other boards and you have a very selective / subjective viewpoint where Roy Jones is concerned. You constantly talk about when the guy was winning fights, and persistently want to make excuses for when he started to lose.

Name me some other genuine ATG's who got KTFO by one up from journeymen types when they were still anywhere near their primes. Ffs Ali was suffering from the beginning of Parkinson's syndrome when he getting battered by both Holmes and Berbick, but STILL he wasn't put to sleep. Similarly Ray Robinson when he had been fighting for 25 years with 200 fights, never comatosed. Try Ray Leonard when he had almost as many comebacks as Frank Sinatra, never needed to be turned on his back and have his gumshield removed, and certainly not by the likes of Tarver or Glenn Johnson.

Your problem is simple, you want to wallow in what you believe is the glory of Roy Jones, but conveniently dismiss his obvious downfall, which is the man had less than sweet eff all once his reflexes left him.

You're a joke.

You have zero knowledge and are completely biased.

What excuses have I made? And who are you on the other boards? That will explain a lot to me.

Obviously you can't read. Because if you could, you would have seen that I haven't made any excuses and I've always given Tarver a lot of credit for his win over Roy in 2004. Roy was much healthier than he was in their first fight. It was a beautiful shot. It happens. That's boxing. However, I can't give Johnson a lot of credit for his victory, because Roy was still shell shocked and he shouldn't have jumped back into the ring so soon. I happen to believe any top 10 LHW would have beaten Roy that night. I like Glen. I respect him. I'm a fan. But I think he was in the right place at the right time.

Regarding Roy's reflexes, yes, again he relied heavily on them. Yes, when they faded he was no longer the fighter he'd been previously. Overall, guys like Duran, Ali and Leonard etc, were all more complete fighters. However, Roy was also immensely skilled. There's been a lot of fighters with great reflexes over the years. But they weren't on Roy's level. If you think that all he had was great reflexes then you're an ignorant fool. Likewise, if you don't think he was an ATG. The guy went from JMW-HW and won 49 out of 50 fights. So how on earth can he not be considered an ATG, just because he lost to Tarver and Johnson at 35? Get real.

[loudon]

golden oldie,

You can also see Jones get up and walk towards the ropes on rubber legs, as opposed to walking towards the fighter who put him on his ass.

Stop lying to justify your hero worship of a particular fighter. It serves you no purpose.

There is no hero worship.


This is what I wrote previously:

Roy was extremely hard to hit clean in his prime. His defence was unconventional, but it was still great.

He only went down against Del Valle, because his back foot slipped on the wet canvas, which had been wiped with a towel on 2 previous occasions. You can see it clearly in the replay.


Explain to me how I was lying?

[loudon]

Del Valle knocked a prime Roy Jones right on his kiester with a straight left from a southpaw stance... Tarver hit Roy much harder with the same shot...

That might be a reason to mention Del Valle, who didn't pack any power... Roy had a few holes in his defense and he was no Mayweather.

Correct.

Though that will not sit well with Master loudon.

Reality is, the guy could still throw exceptionally fast single shots, as evidenced by the punch he nailed Calzaghe with, but without the reflexes he was nothing more than an ordinary fighter / punchbag.

No, it won't sit well with me. Because having reflexes alone doesn't give a fighter the abilities that Roy possessed.

Go and watch his knockout of Pazienzia. And before you say it, yes, Vinny wasn't a SMW and without being disrespectful, he wasn't a great fighter. But watch the 6 punch combo Roy threw whilst walking forwards. He threw 3 uppercuts, 2 from one hand and 1 from the other. I've never even seen that before. Look at his feet. Again: shot selection, balance, timing, distance control and execution etc, is all skill.

[Kalan]

Del Valle knocked a prime Roy Jones right on his kiester with a straight left from a southpaw stance... Tarver hit Roy much harder with the same shot...

That might be a reason to mention Del Valle, who didn't pack any power... Roy had a few holes in his defense and he was no Mayweather.

Correct.

Though that will not sit well with Master loudon.

Reality is, the guy could still throw exceptionally fast single shots, as evidenced by the punch he nailed Calzaghe with, but without the reflexes he was nothing more than an ordinary fighter / punchbag.

No, it won't sit well with me. Because having reflexes alone doesn't give a fighter the abilities that Roy possessed.

Go and watch his knockout of Pazienzia. And before you say it, yes, Vinny wasn't a SMW and without being disrespectful, he wasn't a great fighter. But watch the 6 punch combo Roy threw whilst walking forwards. He threw 3 uppercuts, 2 from one hand and from the other. I've never even seen that before. Look at his feet. Again, shot selection, balance, timing, distance control, and execution etc, is all skill.

I think we can agree that Pazienza was a natural Lightweight who lost to Greg Haugen at 25 in his 25th fight at Lightweight...and then started eating his way out of the division... A super fat Pazienza didn't match up well with Roy Jones...so Roy could do anything to him.. Roy didn't to that to Lou Del Valle or Antonio Tarver who were better match ups for Roy size wise.. and who both parked Roy on his butt.. but Roy couldn't park them on their butts.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Roy didn't like southpaws, is it a coincidence that he missed fighting so many? I doubt it. Amazing loudons Roy internet bat signal still works after all these years. Your dedication to man love is impressive.

[Kalan]

Kalan,

Oh shut your sucker you stupid fking jaggoff.. Now you think I'm a Super Hero who fights crime, somebody lobotomized you at birth.. Duran forgot so much about Boxing that He quit cold in the middle of a fight - he was frustrated at not being able to land punches - and he lost to Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims... You have to have forgotten a lot about Boxing to accomplish those kind of losses.

GGG never forgot a thing and is 36-0 with 33 KO wins...a mark Duran never achieved -- and 36-0 Kell Brook, who entered the ring at 175 which was heavier than Golovkin, would beat the ass off Duran.. Duran lost, and got knocked on his ass a couple times by the less than big and powerful Lightweight, Estaban De Jeusus... And Brook would smash De Jesus as well.. Guys like Martinez, Chavez, Saunders, Jacobs, Quillin, Cotto, Canelo and other big name Middleweights ran their ass off from a GGG fight.. Golovkin's resume would be right up there if those duckers didn't know for sure that Golovkin would knock them out. Nobody feared pudgy little Duran like that. A lot of 2nd rate people beat his ass.

If you don't think Duran would have beaten GG, that's cool. But a lot of what you've posted is silly.

GG is a great fighter and he's in his prime. But he's never fought an ATG and we don't know what the future holds. You can't hold Duran's losses against him, especially the ones when he was old and 4 divisions above his peak weight.

You have to put things into context. GG hasn't fought any guys like Benitez, Leonard and Hearns at higher weights.

Regarding Brook, I don't think he'd have beaten Duran at WW or JMW.

He would have... He would destroy him a lot quicker than somebody like Kirkland Laing... As for Benitez.. he was done at 25 when Matt Hilton iced him

And it's GGG... It's not GG you imbecile.

[Kalan]

He destroyed Duran's night you brainless jackass... A huge underdog, punchless cherry-pick came out of nowhere to beat Duran---making him look like a joke... And an unaccomplished Robbie Sims also beat lil' Duran up -- proving that Gennady Golovkin would smash the pudgy little tyke to bits.

[keithmoonhangover]

Name me some other genuine ATG's who got KTFO by one up from journeymen types when they were still anywhere near their primes.

Johnson was a contender, not a journeyman. He had lost to several boxers. If you call that a journeyman, then I will step up to the challenge. I'll name five that leap out at me.

Mike Tyson lost to Buster.
Lennox Lewis lost to McCall.
Archie Moore lost to Eddie Booker.
Ken Norton lost to Jose Luis Garcia.
Max Schmeling lost to Gipsy Daniels.