The fantasy match : Michael Spinks (1983) vs present day Andre Ward

[ValMar]

Spinks had to avoid HW. The same thing could be considered for Ward. Holyfield was a natural CW, too, but if he had stayed at CW, we (boxing fans) wouldn't have seen many epic battles.

He did batter cooney and beat Holmes twice, hardly a poor run at heavyweight.

I didn't say it was "poor".

[ldlamb]

Dwight Qawi
Eddie Mustafa Muhammed
Marvin Johnson
Yaqui Lopez

All guys that are likely belt holders today

Anyway, Michael Spinks' case had proved that weight divisions ought to be respected. There is an interesting question - if Spinks had moved up at CW, and fought young Holyfield, what would have happened ? I know it is off topic...

I think if Spinks had moved up to CW instead of HW and fought Holyfield in 86 or so, Spinks would win by relatively comfortable decision....but if Tyson didn't exist and Spinks had remained HW champ until about 1990 and fought Holyfield then at that weight, I think Holyfield wins by KO.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Dwight Qawi
Eddie Mustafa Muhammed
Marvin Johnson
Yaqui Lopez

All guys that are likely belt holders today

Anyway, Michael Spinks' case had proved that weight divisions ought to be respected. There is an interesting question - if Spinks had moved up at CW, and fought young Holyfield, what would have happened ? I know it is off topic...

I think if Spinks had moved up to CW instead of HW and fought Holyfield in 86 or so, Spinks would win by relatively comfortable decision....but if Tyson didn't exist and Spinks had remained HW champ until about 1990 and fought Holyfield then at that weight, I think Holyfield wins by KO.

Spinks was never going to rule the heavyweight division for long in any case, there were others out there with the size, punch power and movement to beat him.

[ldlamb]

I agree with the general gist of that.

Spinks was just an average HW....but an all-time great LT Heavy.

[ValMar]

I agree with the general gist of that.

Spinks was just an average HW....but an all-time great LT Heavy.

Yes, but he could have been an excellent CW champion, and be retired without debacle.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He fought Holmes for money and legacy, there wasn't anything at Cruiserweight to provide either at the time. Evander emerged a bit later.

[ValMar]

He fought Holmes for money and legacy, there wasn't anything at Cruiserweight to provide either at the time. Evander emerged a bit later.

He should have retired after Holmes 2. I suppose he had become a "wealthy gentleman" before he fought Tyson.

[ldlamb]

Spinks made over 17 million for the Cooney and Tyson fights, which is likely significantly more than the rest of his career combined.
He almost had to do those fights.

[Kalan]

Michael Spinks... Because he's easily the greatest LHW of all time... Ward doesn't have the the power or work rate to stay with him... In fact Spinks would probably beat Ward worse than Kovalev beat him... Spinks had a great jab... great straight right... and great timing... Watch the first Larry Holmes fight again because Spinks won that one.. I agree Holmes should have been awarded the rematch by a couple rounds.

What happened to Michael Spinks is this: some of the exercises Mackey Shillstone put him through destroyed his knees... And the extra 35 pounds didn't help his knees because he was a natural Light Heavyweight.. Shillstone was young and Spinks was one of the 1st boxers he worked with.. He learned from that and adjusted his approach with Roy, B-Hop, Ward and others.. He worked with a lot of LHW's which is a little weird.. But Hopkins dropped Shillstone after the Calzaghe fight.. He felt great for the Tarver fight after putting on a lot of pounds.. For Calzaghe he felt strong, but bulky, slow, tight, and he ran out of steam..

One thing with strength trainers is you want one who's worked with boxers for a long time.. They change up their ideas and regimens as they learn from their mistakes.. They add things, and then drop them when they don't work. And you're the guinea pig.

[ValMar]

Spinks made over 17 million for the Cooney and Tyson fights, which is likely significantly more than the rest of his career combined.
He almost had to do those fights.

i didn't know this fact. Just now, it is a "big money"....It was a "very big money" thirty years ago......

[Boxing Writer]

Spinks would have been a fearsome cruiserweight for sure. He had power, speed, was awkward as hell.

He was unfortunate to have to fight Tyson, by god, I don't think I've ever seen a world title challenger ever look as nervous as spinks did, his mouth was as dry as a nun's poontang.

He clearly went in there to lose, he wasn't even in shape.

In my opinion, Michael Grant looked even worse coming to the ring against Lennox Lewis. He was entering to the ring with the look as if he was coming to scaffold for execution.

Also, Frank Bruno looked extremely nervous coming to the ring in Tyson rematch.

And all those examples (Spinks, Grant, Bruno) show us that if fighter is scared to death of getting brutally destroyed, destruction is exactly what will happen to him.

[Enlightened-One]

The 1983 version of Michael Spinks had to endure same-day weigh-in’s and his official weight was only 173lbs. Around the same time, there was even talk of a Hagler-Spinks bout, so he couldn't have been that big in 1983.

This means that Andre Ward would probably possess a 15lb rehydration weight advantage if he faced the 1983 version of Michael Spinks, which I feel is too much of a size discrepancy to overcome.

I also believe that the S.O.G. is a much better boxer than the Jinx.

I think it was simply a different era, because Spinks’ workrate in 1983 appears lackadaisical in comparison to modern day 175lb-ers.

Ward would probably outwork Spinks en-route to scoring lop-sided decision victory.

Oh this is funny .....so spinx one of the greatest light heavy weights ever would be out weighed ,out worked and outboxed by ward ...
Troll

Michael Spinks' work-rate is visibly and markedly lower than the 175lb-ers that compete nowadays. This is supported by CompuBox stats and YouTube videos.

Also, when the Jinx competed thirty years ago, the official weigh-in took place on the same day as the fight, whereas boxers in the modern era have more than 24-hours to rehydrate 10lbs to 20lbs more than their official weight. This is compounded by the fact that Spinks made the weight so easily that he typically weighed 2lbs to 3lbs lower than the official 175lbs weight.

What I've said is statistically correct and I hope you're grateful for the history lesson.

In terms of boxing ability, of course, comparing Ward and Spinks is subjective in nature, but the Jinx regularly adopted a fighting style where his hands were held low, which would not be approved by modern trainers.

What I've claimed may have amused you, to the point that you found it "funny", but please look at the title of this thread, do some research and then mock my claims using cold-hard facts... please... I dare you to try.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Spinks threw so many more punches than ward. Michael could be roughed up a bit on the inside(Eddie davis best him that way) but all of those light heavyweights had a work rate that Andre has never seen.

[Enlightened-One]

Oh this is funny .....so spinx one of the greatest light heavy weights ever would be out weighed ,out worked and outboxed by ward ...
Troll

Michael Spinks' work-rate is visibly and markedly lower than the 175lb-ers that compete nowadays. This is supported by CompuBox stats and YouTube videos.

Also, when the Jinx competed thirty years ago, the official weigh-in took place on the same day as the fight, whereas boxers in the modern era have more than 24-hours to rehydrate 10lbs to 20lbs more than their official weight. This is compounded by the fact that Spinks made the weight so easily that he typically weighed 2lbs to 3lbs lower than the official 175lbs weight.

What I've said is statistically correct and I hope you're grateful for the history lesson.

In terms of boxing ability, of course, comparing Ward and Spinks is subjective in nature, but the Jinx regularly adopted a fighting style where his hands were held low, which would not be approved by modern trainers.

Lol so spinx could go up to heavy weight and win THE linear heavy belt and defend it but wards style of hit and grab would be to modern for him ..... Come on this is almost comical ....

You should change you're name to the stupid one...

What I find "comical" and "stupid" is your refusal to directly address the subject matter of this thread, whilst also seemingly conceding the fact that I successfully addressed two of the three points that you failed to challenge me on.

What's it like to have your challenges backfire on you? You know what I mean... when you try to make someone look foolish, but then you're forced to disengage the debate with your tail between your legs?

I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence about the 1983 version of Spinks being "bigger" and "busier" than Ward... the clock is ticking... come on now, show me how "stupid" and "comical" my words were?

[Enlightened-One]

Spinks threw so many more punches than ward. Michael could be roughed up a bit on the inside(Eddie davis best him that way) but all of those light heavyweights had a work rate that Andre has never seen.

I'm sorry but I don't accept your claims. Watch the Spinks-Qawi fight of 1983 and it's almost shocking how those guys competed.

In comparison to the Ward-Kovalev fight, the work-rate of Spinks and Qawi were low and they held their arms far too low.

I don't need anything other than the eyeball test to prove this to be an irrefutable fact.

Perhaps modern diet and training methods have improved significantly, to the point it explains the progression in fighting ability... I truly don't know, but I refuse to wear rose-tinted nostalgic spectacles as my sole means to undermine a common-sense fact that even laymen cannot possibly deny!

[Enlightened-One]

Lol so spinx could go up to heavy weight and win THE linear heavy belt and defend it but wards style of hit and grab would be to modern for him ..... Come on this is almost comical ....

You should change you're name to the stupid one...

What I find "comical" and "stupid" is your refusal to directly address the subject matter of this thread, whilst also seemingly conceding the fact that I successfully addressed two of the three points that you failed to challenge me on.

What's it like to have your challenges backfire on you? You know what I mean... when you try to make someone look foolish, but then you're forced to disengage the debate with your tail between your legs?

I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence about the 1983 version of Spinks being "bigger" and "busier" than Ward... the clock is ticking... come on now, show me how "stupid" and "comical" my words were?

Tail between my legs...well at least one of us have something between our legs...

Thank you for conceding the fact that you were wrong!

[ldlamb]

Your stats are not correct.

A heavier Spinks in both Holmes fights threw and landed significantly more punches than Ward or Kovalev last week.

And the weigh-in stuff is stupid.

Spinks was a bigger man than Ward. The rules in 83 were different, but that is irrelevant. If they fought under 83 rules, Ward would have to weigh in the day of as well and would have no size advantage and if they fought under current rules , a Spinks who looked great fighting at 200, would bulk up after the weigh in just as much as Ward.

If those two guys stood side by side, Spinks would be the clearly bigger man.

[Enlightened-One]

Your stats are not correct.

A heavier Spinks in both Holmes fights threw and landed significantly more punches than Ward or Kovalev last week.

And the weigh-in stuff is stupid.

Spinks was a bigger man than Ward. The rules in 83 were different, but that is irrelevant. If they fought under 83 rules, Ward would have to weigh in the day of as well and would have no size advantage and if they fought under current rules , a Spinks who looked great fighting at 200, would bulk up after the weigh in just as much as Ward.

If those two guys stood side by side, Spinks would be the clearly bigger man.

We're talking about the 1983 version of Spinks versus the 2016 version of Ward in the context of the physical state both men were when they entered the ring.

So please watch the Spinks-Qawi fight from 1983 and then watch the Ward-Kovalev bout from last weekend and revisit your claims.

It seems that people keep reciting the same old myths over-and-over again in the desperate hope that raw repetition will eventually displace the truth.

This is one of the few occasions whereby eye-witness accounts cannot be undermined.

[ldlamb]

Nothing You are saying is true.

If Ward and Spinks fought, they would fight under the same rules....not some weird combo of a drained Spinks under same day weigh ins and a bulked up Ward with a day of hydration. It's just stupid for you to suggest otherwise.

Spinks was about 3 inches taller and just plain a bigger guy.

He also had a very active work rate for a heavier weight class, which is bolstered by the stats for his fights after punch stats became a thing.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nothing You are saying is true.

If Ward and Spinks fought, they would fight under the same rules....not some weird combo of a drained Spinks under same day weigh ins and a bulked up Ward with a day if hydration. It's just stupid for you to suggest otherwise.

Spinks was about 3 inches taller and just plain a bigger guy.

He also had a very active work rate for a heavier weight class, which is bolstered by the stats for his fights after punch stats became a thing.

he's the perfect use of the ignore function. Constantly wrong. Ironic thing is I didn't even read his nonsense before my post. That work rate and spinks size advantage are big factors.

[Enlightened-One]

Nothing You are saying is true.

If Ward and Spinks fought, they would fight under the same rules....not some weird combo of a drained Spinks under same day weigh ins and a bulked up Ward with a day if hydration. It's just stupid for you to suggest otherwise.

Spinks was about 3 inches taller and just plain a bigger guy.

He also had a very active work rate for a heavier weight class, which is bolstered by the stats for his fights after punch stats became a thing.

OK, provide some stats of Ward's and Spinks bouts from 1983 and 2016 for comparison purposes... round-by-round.

If you're going to cite stats as the reason to justify your belief, then I have to assume you have them, because the alternative doesn't portray you in a positive light.

[Enlightened-One]

Nothing You are saying is true.

If Ward and Spinks fought, they would fight under the same rules....not some weird combo of a drained Spinks under same day weigh ins and a bulked up Ward with a day if hydration. It's just stupid for you to suggest otherwise.

Spinks was about 3 inches taller and just plain a bigger guy.

He also had a very active work rate for a heavier weight class, which is bolstered by the stats for his fights after punch stats became a thing.

he's the perfect use of the ignore function. Constantly wrong.

You ignore me because you cannot defend yourself when you make an inaccurate claim that you have no means to support.

It's a badge of honour for me to be ignored by people that can neither defend their position nor undermine mine... especially by those that have previously tried and failed to aggressively challenge my thoughts.

[ldlamb]

Tv didn't do punch stats before 1985.

In 1985 at 200 lbs, Spinks landed 318 out of 697.

You would normally assume that lighter and over 12 rounds, his work rate would have been even higher.
But anyway, those numbers average out to 255 and 558 over 12 rounds.

That's about 140 more landed punches and about 220 more thrown punches than Ward had last week.

[Enlightened-One]

Tv didn't do punch stats before 1985.

In 1985 at 200 lbs, Spinks landed 318 out of 697.

You would normally assume that lighter and over 12 rounds, his work rate would have been even higher.
But anyway, those numbers average out to 255 and 558 over 12 rounds.

That's about 140 more landed punches and about 220 more thrown punches than Ward had last week.

You’re comparing apples to oranges.

The 1985 version of Spinks threw lots of speculative points-scoring punches and employed more lateral movement in his fighting style, because he was facing a dead-cert all-time great heavyweight champion that was much bigger and stronger than any of the opponents he had previously competed against during his 175lbs heyday in 1983.

If you watch both of his bouts in 1983, he was sharing the ring against opponents that were smaller in statured than himself, which inevitably resulted in Spinks demonstrating less lateral movement (as he was planting his feet more in order to gain more leverage behind his punches) to load up more frequently, resulting in him throwing fewer shots per round.

There’s nothing else I can really say on the matter, because the stylistic fighting style differences between the 173lb version of Spinks, as opposed to the 200lb version that competed against Larry Holmes, is really quite significant. There are YouTube videos where you can draw your own comparisons to validate the accuracy of my claims.

If the title of this thread was to express an opinion about the outcome of a fictional fight between the 185lb+ version of Ward (that fought last weekend) versus the 200lb 1985 version of Michael Spinks, then my expectations about the result would be different.

However, we’re actually being asked to express an opinion about the probable winner of a bout between the 173lbs 1983 version of Spinks against the 185lbs+ version of Andre Ward. And I feel compelled to express my thoughts in the context of how the Jinx chose to compete in 1983, because this addresses the thread title.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Spinks would have been a fearsome cruiserweight for sure. He had power, speed, was awkward as hell.

He was unfortunate to have to fight Tyson, by god, I don't think I've ever seen a world title challenger ever look as nervous as spinks did, his mouth was as dry as a nun's poontang.

He clearly went in there to lose, he wasn't even in shape.

In my opinion, Michael Grant looked even worse coming to the ring against Lennox Lewis. He was entering to the ring with the look as if he was coming to scaffold for execution.

Also, Frank Bruno looked extremely nervous coming to the ring in Tyson rematch.

And all those examples (Spinks, Grant, Bruno) show us that if fighter is scared to death of getting brutally destroyed, destruction is exactly what will happen to him.

You beat me to me amending my own post - yes Bruno literally looked like he was going to a firing squad, he crossed himself so many times I feared he might have to pull out with RSI.I don't remember Grant's ring walk, but the outcome certainly bears it out.