The MIDDLEWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[elmersalsa]

What are the final results?

[Crease]

What are the final results?

They'll be up within the next few minutes. I've been extremely busy over the past few days...

[Crease]

Our FINAL TABLE looks like this:

FINAL Scoreboard: (23 Members have voted)

1st - 196 pts Harry Greb
2nd - 181 pts Carlos Monzon
3rd - 168 pts Sugar Ray Robinson
4th - 165 pts Marvin Hagler
5th - 100 pts Stanley Ketchel
6th - 62 pts Mickey Walker
7th - 61 pts Bernard Hopkins
8th - 54 pts Bob Fitzsimmons
9th - 41 pts Sam Langford
10th - 26 pts Charley Burley

Tied 11th - 25 pts Roy Jones Jr
Tied 11th - 25 pts Dick Tiger
Tied 11th - 25 pts Gennady Golovkin
14th - 22 pts Jake LaMotta
15th - 21 pts Tiger Flowers
16th - 15 pts Mike Gibbons
17th - 13 pts Nino Benvenuti
Tied 17th - 12 pts James Toney
Tied 17th - 12 pts Tommy Ryan
20th - 9 pts Freddie Steele

Tied 21st - 8 pts Tony Zale
Tied 21st - 8 pts Marcel Cerdan
23rd 7 pts Holman Williams
Tied 24th - 3 pts Kid McCoy
Tied 24th - 3 pts Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
Tied 24th - 3 pts Gene Fullmer
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
28th - 2 pts Mike McCallum
29th - 1 pts Mike O'Dowd

Harry Greb is voted as our Greatest Ever Middleweight!!!

GAME CLOSED!!!

Overview:

Harry Greb was voted Number One 11 times.
Carlos Monzon was voted Number One 4 times.
Sugar Ray Robinson was voted Number One 4 times.
Marvin Hagler was voted Number One 1 time.
Stanley Ketchel was voted Number One 1 time.
Sam Langford was voted Number One 1 time.
Gennady Golovkin was voted Number One 1 time.

[Keko]

I expected Zale and Cerdan with more points.

[elmersalsa]

I am disappointed that King Carlos is not #1. I don't consider the great Sam Langford a middleweight. There is no indication in his record that he had a long stay in that class. He was going up and down to different weight classifications.

Also, I am disappointed about the great Dick Tiger not making the top 10 in this list. What a fighter! He is a top 10 middleweight in my view.

[davie]

I've read them all, Clay Moyles books one of my favourites

They were sitting in my Amazon basket.
Your nod was all I needed to confirm the order.
I'll report back with my thoughts

Anyway, we can let this thread get back on topic now

Enjoy the reading Davie Burley books good too. Man got a raw deal.

Just finished the Langford book and have to say it has deepened my respect for an incredible fighting man.

I already appreciated just how spectacular his achievements in the sport were, but reading over the circumstances, the weight he gave up at times, understanding the lifestyle he led, knowing the amount of unjust decisions he was on the wrong end of and the politics he faced in his way, one can only speculate he was arguably the best in the sports history. (I say arguably, because we will never know)
Anyone that fought and beat Joe Gans at lightweight as a novice, drew with (beat?) Joe Walcott at welter, defeated a middleweight Ketchel & Tiger Flowers, a LHW Philadelphia Jack O'Brien and lasted 15 against a 30lb heavier Jack Johnston deserves enormous credit, that's before you consider the vast array of huge genuine heavyweights he beat to submission, often when he was old, out of shape and blind. Utterly spectacular.

My one complaint was that the author appeared to have an excuse for every defeat on his record and at times seemed to struggle with neutrality.
There would be no shame in Sam losing some of his 300+ fights.
I've no doubt there were some that had legit excuses but to take an example, he told a story of avenging a defeat to Gunboat Smith in 1914, he said Sam had lost the previous year as he was in terrible shape, but he entered the ring in this bout in excellent fighting condition, yet less than a week later he lost to Jeff Clark, a man he defeated several times and the author said he entered in terrible condition.
How badly did he abuse himself in 6 days?

That's a minor gripe though, a really good read from start to finish

[davie]

I am disappointed that King Carlos is not #1. I don't consider the great Sam Langford a middleweight. There is no indication in his record that he had a long stay in that class. He was going up and down to different weight classifications.

Also, I am disappointed about the great Dick Tiger not making the top 10 in this list. What a fighter! He is a top 10 middleweight in my view.

Langford at 160lbs would have knocked Tiger into next week
I wouldn't despair too much for Tiger though, there's only a point seperated him RJJ, Burley and Golovkin

As for Carlos, I'm disappointed he finished above Hagler. Marv beats him head to head and in resume in my humble (and it would appear, completely flawed) opinion

[Tomasino]

They were sitting in my Amazon basket.
Your nod was all I needed to confirm the order.
I'll report back with my thoughts

Anyway, we can let this thread get back on topic now

Enjoy the reading Davie Burley books good too. Man got a raw deal.

Just finished the Langford book and have to say it has deepened my respect for an incredible fighting man.

I already appreciated just how spectacular his achievements in the sport were, but reading over the circumstances, the weight he gave up at times, understanding the lifestyle he led, knowing the amount of unjust decisions he was on the wrong end of and the politics he faced in his way, one can only speculate he was arguably the best in the sports history. (I say arguably, because we will never know)
Anyone that fought and beat Joe Gans at lightweight as a novice, drew with (beat?) Joe Walcott at welter, defeated a middleweight Ketchel & Tiger Flowers, a LHW Philadelphia Jack O'Brien and lasted 15 against a 30lb heavier Jack Johnston deserves enormous credit, that's before you consider the vast array of huge genuine heavyweights he beat to submission, often when he was old, out of shape and blind. Utterly spectacular.

My one complaint was that the author appeared to have an excuse for every defeat on his record and at times seemed to struggle with neutrality.
There would be no shame in Sam losing some of his 300+ fights.
I've no doubt there were some that had legit excuses but to take an example, he told a story of avenging a defeat to Gunboat Smith in 1914, he said Sam had lost the previous year as he was in terrible shape, but he entered the ring in this bout in excellent fighting condition, yet less than a week later he lost to Jeff Clark, a man he defeated several times and the author said he entered in terrible condition.
How badly did he abuse himself in 6 days?

That's a minor gripe though, a really good read from start to finish

I did notice that too. If he would have had his chance I believe he could have had a longer career as a middleweight. He also outboxed a prime Barbados Joe Walcott which I think is one of his best performances.

[davie]

Enjoy the reading Davie Burley books good too. Man got a raw deal.

Just finished the Langford book and have to say it has deepened my respect for an incredible fighting man.

I already appreciated just how spectacular his achievements in the sport were, but reading over the circumstances, the weight he gave up at times, understanding the lifestyle he led, knowing the amount of unjust decisions he was on the wrong end of and the politics he faced in his way, one can only speculate he was arguably the best in the sports history. (I say arguably, because we will never know)
Anyone that fought and beat Joe Gans at lightweight as a novice, drew with (beat?) Joe Walcott at welter, defeated a middleweight Ketchel & Tiger Flowers, a LHW Philadelphia Jack O'Brien and lasted 15 against a 30lb heavier Jack Johnston deserves enormous credit, that's before you consider the vast array of huge genuine heavyweights he beat to submission, often when he was old, out of shape and blind. Utterly spectacular.

My one complaint was that the author appeared to have an excuse for every defeat on his record and at times seemed to struggle with neutrality.
There would be no shame in Sam losing some of his 300+ fights.
I've no doubt there were some that had legit excuses but to take an example, he told a story of avenging a defeat to Gunboat Smith in 1914, he said Sam had lost the previous year as he was in terrible shape, but he entered the ring in this bout in excellent fighting condition, yet less than a week later he lost to Jeff Clark, a man he defeated several times and the author said he entered in terrible condition.
How badly did he abuse himself in 6 days?

That's a minor gripe though, a really good read from start to finish

I did notice that too. If he would have had his chance I believe he could have had a longer career as a middleweight. He also outboxed a prime Barbados Joe Walcott which I think is one of his best performances.

I've just opened 'The killings of Stanley Ketchel' and realised it's a work of fiction.
A story, not the biography I'd expected.
Not really what I was looking for, it better be bloody good

[dr_devious]

It is a good read Davie

[keithmoonhangover]

Our FINAL TABLE looks like this:

FINAL Scoreboard: (23 Members have voted)

1st - 196 pts Harry Greb
2nd - 181 pts Carlos Monzon
3rd - 168 pts Sugar Ray Robinson
4th - 165 pts Marvin Hagler
5th - 100 pts Stanley Ketchel
6th - 62 pts Mickey Walker
7th - 61 pts Bernard Hopkins
8th - 54 pts Bob Fitzsimmons
9th - 41 pts Sam Langford
10th - 26 pts Charley Burley

Tied 11th - 25 pts Roy Jones Jr
Tied 11th - 25 pts Dick Tiger
Tied 11th - 25 pts Gennady Golovkin
14th - 22 pts Jake LaMotta
15th - 21 pts Tiger Flowers
16th - 15 pts Mike Gibbons
17th - 13 pts Nino Benvenuti
Tied 17th - 12 pts James Toney
Tied 17th - 12 pts Tommy Ryan
20th - 9 pts Freddie Steele

Tied 21st - 8 pts Tony Zale
Tied 21st - 8 pts Marcel Cerdan
23rd 7 pts Holman Williams
Tied 24th - 3 pts Kid McCoy
Tied 24th - 3 pts Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
Tied 24th - 3 pts Gene Fullmer
Tied 24th - 3 pts Billy Papke
28th - 2 pts Mike McCallum
29th - 1 pts Mike O'Dowd

Harry Greb is voted as our Greatest Ever Middleweight!!!

GAME CLOSED!!!

Great work Crease.

[davie]

It is a good read Davie

Sat and read about 100 pages this morning, it is indeed a good read.
It actually serves as a bit of a boxing biography book too, as it lists his fights and historically significant circumstance surrounding them, with a bit of story and drama around it to make it more interesting

of course, how much artistic license he adds is another thing entirely. I wanted to learn about Ketchel and now don't know how much weight to put behind what I'm reading, from what is ultimately a work of fiction. (for instance, I can find nothing to back up the tale that Maurice Thompson was his early manager and trainer, who taught him a few early boxing lessons. Thompson was a 20 year old himself at the time and it strikes me as a way of making Ketchels 2 early defeats into an interesting part of his story)

But a good story non the less

[davie]

It is a good read Davie

It is a bloody good read
I wonder now how much of it is truth and how much fiction?