Most Skillfull Fighter Of Alltime ?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The second fight, Duran is immediately not as quick or inspired. Plain as day. I guess neither of them earned a victory, they both just fought the wrong fight.

Of course they earned their victories.

Are you actually interested in discussing boxing or are you just on here to make snide remarks and be rude, condescending, ignorant and childish?

Not much to discuss with a junkie bitch like yourself.

[keithmoonhangover]

The second fight, Duran is immediately not as quick or inspired. Plain as day. I guess neither of them earned a victory, they both just fought the wrong fight.

Of course they earned their victories.

Are you actually interested in discussing boxing or are you just on here to make snide remarks and be rude, condescending, ignorant and childish?

Not much to discuss with a junkie bitch like yourself.

Is that the best you've got Saad? Surely you can do better.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Of course they earned their victories.

Are you actually interested in discussing boxing or are you just on here to make snide remarks and be rude, condescending, ignorant and childish?

Not much to discuss with a junkie bitch like yourself.

Is that the best you've got Saad? Surely you can do better.

I give you a little attention as you so desperately crave it. You're under no obligation to constantly quote me on non Boxing related topics. I know your life is bleak. Mine isn't, little time for the likes of you.

[keithmoonhangover]

constantly quote me on non Boxing related topics.

Where?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

constantly quote me on non Boxing related topics.

Where?

[keithmoonhangover]

constantly quote me on non Boxing related topics.

Where?

Two posts on this thread is constantly? Yeah, of course.

You can tell you've stopped taking your meds,

[Crease]

Just watch their fights again. Neither of the two were good inside fighters. They can't fight inside.

"They can't fight on the inside"

- I'm sorry sir, but I afraid that we are going to disagree on that one. At the risk of repeating myself, they did prefer fighting a different style but they could fight on the inside when cornered and the situation required it.

[elmersalsa]

Just watch their fights again. Neither of the two were good inside fighters. They can't fight inside.

"They can't fight on the inside"

- I'm sorry sir, but I afraid that we are going to disagree on that one. At the risk of repeating myself, they did prefer fighting a different style but they could fight on the inside when cornered and the situation required it.

They never did. And they never knew how.

[BoxBuzz]

bump for new opining.

[jaclem3]

willie pep. thank you for asking.

[BoxBuzz]

willie pep. thank you for asking.

I can think of a couple of LHW's that often think of that surely could vie for this especially if weight is considered a handicap in factoring such skills.

I also ponder the nearly astronomical amount of luck that one of these fighters always carried with him when entering a ring where the other happened to be his opponent.

[keithmoonhangover]

Buzz, I think this depends on what the word means to each poster. When you say skillful, it automatically brings to mind someone like SRL, but isn't boxing ultimately about winning and if you win a fight, then surely you have proved more skillful than your opponent. Take Marciano as an example, he was no SRR, but he used his skills to overcome his opponents.

As my late father would say, "you don't get any points for artistic merit."

[Tomasino]

Buzz, I think this depends on what the word means to each poster. When you say skillful, it automatically brings to mind someone like SRL, but isn't boxing ultimately about winning and if you win a fight, then surely you have proved more skillful than your opponent. Take Marciano as an example, he was no SRR, but he used his skills to overcome his opponents.

As my late father would say, "you don't get any points for artistic merit."

I feel the Rock was more will than skill, also an unnaturally hard puncher.

[BoxBuzz]

Buzz, I think this depends on what the word means to each poster. When you say skillful, it automatically brings to mind someone like SRL, but isn't boxing ultimately about winning and if you win a fight, then surely you have proved more skillful than your opponent. Take Marciano as an example, he was no SRR, but he used his skills to overcome his opponents.

As my late father would say, "you don't get any points for artistic merit."

I feel the Rock was more will than skill, also an unnaturally hard puncher.

It is an interesting conversation, always has been. Sometimes I think "who would I rather be once the fight was over?" is the quintessential "Who won the fight" answer. If you can let yourself be beaten to a pulp, while wearing out your opponent, so that you eventually stop him, certainly that is a skillset. The onion farmer was good at that as I recall. But always winning is a skillset, but two examples...Marciano and Ottke, couldn't be further apart in the "how" of that.

And sometimes "Artistic Merit" can win you a decision. Surely in the amateurs that is true.

[keithmoonhangover]

Buzz, I think this depends on what the word means to each poster. When you say skillful, it automatically brings to mind someone like SRL, but isn't boxing ultimately about winning and if you win a fight, then surely you have proved more skillful than your opponent. Take Marciano as an example, he was no SRR, but he used his skills to overcome his opponents.

As my late father would say, "you don't get any points for artistic merit."

I feel the Rock was more will than skill, also an unnaturally hard puncher.

It is an interesting conversation, always has been. Sometimes I think "who would I rather be once the fight was over?" is the quintessential "Who won the fight" answer. If you can let yourself be beaten to a pulp, while wearing out your opponent, so that you eventually stop him, certainly that is a skillset. The onion farmer was good at that as I recall. But always winning is a skillset, but two examples...Marciano and Ottke, couldn't be further apart in the "how" of that.

And sometimes "Artistic Merit" can win you a decision. Surely in the amateurs that is true.

I agree to some extent, but if the slugger outlands the stylist 2 to 1, who is the more skillful?

[BoxBuzz]

I would say to consider yourself a "stylist" you'd need to defend at a better rate than a 2 to 1 deficit.

If you are getting hit twice as often has you are landing, then we would need some sort of "nogginometer" to figure out what was going on.

I suppose if you just weren't rattled by the shots you could go about your business of fighting. But I'd be hard pressed to figure how a judge could give you the fight.

Some referees have defended their odd decisions by saying that they were in a position to tell if the shots had "meaning" or not. But the farther you get away from the action,

the harder that has to be to get a "reading".

[Kalan]

You sure your not lettin' Angelo Dundee sell ya a bill of goods? You know he was owned by that Sandy Saddler fella.

A question Buzz.

How do you get owned by a guy who you beat in brilliant fashion? Which is what everyone says about his rematch with Saddler. In addition Pep was winning on ALL SCORECARDS at the end of his 3rd and 4th Saddler fights. He was forced to retire because of a separated left shoulder in the 3rd fight, but Pep says Saddler pulled his shoulder out of its socket by illegal wrestling tactics and wrenching his arms in the 3rd fight. The story is on this website so do your due research. In the 4th fight Pep was also ahead on all cards, but determined not to be out-fouled by Saddler. Pep said the referee was doing nothing about Saddler’s holding and hitting, wrestling, and palming his face, so he fouled back. Pep claimed Saddler ripped open cuts on his eyes with the palms of his gloves and Pep tried his best to retaliate with the same tactics. “I was no match for Saddler in dirt fighting.” Eventually Pep quit because “The fight was a total farce. A free-for-all. It was the only street fight I was ever involved in. That’s why Saddler won. That’s not my game.” Saddler was suspended for wrestling and fouling and Pep had his license revoked outright. Ring Magazine called the donnybrook “The Dirtiest Fight of all Time” In the first fight Saddler won by holding Pep behind the neck and uppercutting him. Pep was ready for that tactic in the rematch. Pep won the first 10 rounds easily. Then Saddler started the very rough tactics, holding and hitting and palming in the late rounds and still lost by a wide margin.

The Saddler fights came after the horrific mid-winter plane crash that killed several people and put Pep out for a number of hours. It messed up some of his internal organs, messed up his chest broke several vertibrae in his back, and left one leg shorter than the other. Pep was in a complete body and leg cast for 5 months. He would have gotten a massive insurance settlement if he quit Boxing but he was determined to continue because of his love for it.

Many say it wasn’t the same Pep after the plane crash and statistics bears this out… Pep was 108-1-1 before the plane crash and 121-10 after the plane crash. Pep said the accident took away his chin. He was never knocked out before the accident and suffered all 6 of his KO losses after the accident. Most of his career losses came by KO in fact. That is very unusual for a master boxer who can generally save himself from that fate. Pep went down 3 times from seemingly light punches by Lulu Perez and had his license revoked. Pep was outraged. He said the punches legitimately knocked him down. He sued Newsweek for 75 million for defamation for insinuating he took a dive.

Robinson was knocked down often but stopped only once in his 19 losses. Salvador Sanchez was never knocked out but lost once. He was the most skillful Featherweight ever before his death. Probably Tunney was the most skilled boxer ever.

[BoxBuzz]

You sure your not lettin' Angelo Dundee sell ya a bill of goods? You know he was owned by that Sandy Saddler fella.

A question Buzz.

How do you get owned by a guy who you beat in brilliant fashion? Which is what everyone says about his rematch with Saddler. In addition Pep was winning on ALL SCORECARDS at the end of his 3rd and 4th Saddler fights. He was forced to retire because of a separated left shoulder in the 3rd fight, but Pep says Saddler pulled his shoulder out of its socket by illegal wrestling tactics and wrenching his arms in the 3rd fight. The story is on this website so do your due research. In the 4th fight Pep was also ahead on all cards, but determined not to be out-fouled by Saddler. Pep said the referee was doing nothing about Saddler’s holding and hitting, wrestling, and palming his face, so he fouled back. Pep claimed Saddler ripped open cuts on his eyes with the palms of his gloves and Pep tried his best to retaliate with the same tactics. “I was no match for Saddler in dirt fighting.” Eventually Pep quit because “The fight was a total farce. A free-for-all. It was the only street fight I was ever involved in. That’s why Saddler won. That’s not my game.” Saddler was suspended for wrestling and fouling and Pep had his license revoked outright. Ring Magazine called the donnybrook “The Dirtiest Fight of all Time” In the first fight Saddler won by holding Pep behind the neck and uppercutting him. Pep was ready for that tactic in the rematch. Pep won the first 10 rounds easily. Then Saddler started the very rough tactics, holding and hitting and palming in the late rounds and still lost by a wide margin.

The Saddler fights came after the horrific mid-winter plane crash that killed several people and put Pep out for a number of hours. It messed up some of his internal organs, messed up his chest broke several vertibrae in his back, and left one leg shorter than the other. Pep was in a complete body and leg cast for 5 months. He would have gotten a massive insurance settlement if he quit Boxing but he was determined to continue because of his love for it.

Many say it wasn’t the same Pep after the plane crash and statistics bears this out… Pep was 108-1-1 before the plane crash and 121-10 after the plane crash. Pep said the accident took away his chin. He was never knocked out before the accident and suffered all 6 of his KO losses after the accident. Most of his career losses came by KO in fact. That is very unusual for a master boxer who can generally save himself from that fate. Pep went down 3 times from seemingly light punches by Lulu Perez and had his license revoked. Pep was outraged. He said the punches legitimately knocked him down. He sued Newsweek for 75 million for defamation for insinuating he took a dive.

Robinson was knocked down often but stopped only once in his 19 losses. Salvador Sanchez was never knocked out but lost once. He was the most skillful Featherweight ever before his death. Probably Tunney was the most skilled boxer ever.

Moore and Charles were pretty deft as well.


I don't fully disagree with you regarding Pep and Saddler, and you accounted for that nicely in my opinion.


So Pep was able to be rehabilitated after an accident? But not Cleveland Williams? Seems inconsistent, especially when you take a look at Williams record after the incident. He healed up nicely as well.

Also....Saddler gets his arm out of wack because he was goofing about, and I think Peps style could twist a man into some pretzel knots along the way as well. Seems we agree...

But Chris could never have done that to Vitali? And yet.....


Hey wait a minute, you are using pretzel logic here. Favoring your boys over the crowd. Stop doing that, and admit to your lowful todying in this case. You almost slipped one past me there.

Gotta hand it to ya Kalan, Ya gotta get up pretty early in the afternoon to accomplish that.

[Kalan]

So Pep was able to be rehabilitated after an accident? But not Cleveland Williams? Seems inconsistent, especially when you take a look at Williams record after the incident. He healed up nicely as well. Also....Saddler gets his arm out of wack because he was goofing about, and I think Peps style could twist a man into some pretzel knots along the way as well. Seems we agree... But Chris could never have done that to Vitali? And yet.....Hey wait a minute, you are using pretzel logic here. Favoring your boys over the crowd. Stop doing that, and admit to your lowful todying in this case. You almost slipped one past me there

Don't be daft... Williams wasn't anywhere near the athlete to begin with that Pep was... Was Williams and ATG??? ... Williams record after the near-fatal shooting was miserable... He never beat a single Heavyweight Contender... And the guys Williams fought leading into the Ali fight were NOT guys you are awarded a title shot for beating... It was an instance of Ali cherry-picking.

Pep was GOOFING ABOUT??? These guys were engaged in serious business. If a referee is NOT calling fouls he's favoring the fouling expert. If you retaliate the referee is STILL not going to call the fouls, but you've already been pulled out of your game and you're fighting the other guy's fight.

Straighten out your pretzels boy... A torn rotator cuff like Vitali suffered is a very common sports injury if you'd up your brain in gear... It generally has NOTHING to do with anything your opponent does...It's like the knee going for Czar Glazkov or the twisted ankle for Saddam Ali... It's unfortunate and it can cost you the fight... You live with it... But if a bigger, taller, stronger opponent wins by fouling the Hell out of you... that's not justice is it???? ... You're the biggest toady going Buzz -- I'm just looking for justice... Watch the Denzel Movie "The Hurricane" and you'll understand.. when Carter tells the judge.. "Don't turn your eyes away from the law and the truth.. All I ask for is justice... Simple justice... That's all I ask"

[BoxBuzz]

Daft? Are you talkin' to me?


So what your tellin' the pantin' public, is that you don't bring sentiment to the table?....it's all about a cold calculated assessment?

And this is what brings you to the opinion that Joshua and GGG are without a doubt the best of the best of the best?

Even if they haven't yet been vetted with a full career behind them?

Seems assumptive, and quite possibly opportunistic IF you happen to be own a chunk of their contracts.

But it's nice to see that at least SOMEBODY thinks the sport is improving, and that the best is still ahead for the boxing fans.

Sort of makes you the Ronald Reagan of the forum.

[Keko]

Willie Pep for me.

[Scypion]

SRL

Not sure that I agree about SRL as far as skill. SRL had 40 fights. I don't think that he compares in skill with greats like Charles, Moore, Pep, and Robinson, who had well over 100 fights. What Leonard had was speed and talent. When he started losing some of his speed, he started having trouble in some fights. I believe that SRL saw the handwriting on the wall when he lost to Norris at 34, and then retired (at least until the Camacho fight).

Roberto Duran fought until he was 50, and his skill carried him in some of his fights even though he was far past his prime. He gave a 34 year old Camacho a good fight even though he was 45 at the time. Some even thought he won including none other than Sugar Ray Leonard (which led up to his fight with Camacho).

JMO, but I thought what made SRL so good was his speed and talent. I would go along with Crease's list and have SRL as top 5 all time in the welterweight division.

SRL top 5 ATG? I saw him many times, and disagree. He was great, but not top 5. Super close fight with Benitez, his fight with Hearns he was definitely losing through 12 or 13....would have lost it by UD if a 12 rounder. He admitted Hearns beat him in a rematch that was called a draw. Great at stealing rounds with little flurries at the end. Beat? Hagler at the end of Hagler's career. Was totally shot at 34. If him and Floyd fought at 34, I guess that would make Floyd the GOAT? I actually put Hagler and Hearns on equal footing status as Leonard.

Actually, I said that SRL was a top 5 all time in the welterweight division. I did not say that he was a top 5 ATG.

I just noticed that after all this time.

[NateJR]

Skills.. by skills do we mean adaptability, ring IQ, ring generalship, technique and so on? I'm not to say I've seen every fighter or know all, but I've seen Willie Pep, SRL, Duran, SRR, Ali etc.. and I'm hard pressed to see how any of them were more "skilled" than Floyd Mayweather.

[elmersalsa]

Skills.. by skills do we mean adaptability, ring IQ, ring generalship, technique and so on? I'm not to say I've seen every fighter or know all, but I've seen Willie Pep, SRL, Duran, SRR, Ali etc.. and I'm hard pressed to see how any of them were more "skilled" than Floyd Mayweather.

Floyd Mayweather, Jr is a once a generation fighter just like Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, Willie Pep and Muhammad Ali to name a few. As the years go by, he will definitely would be remembered in high regard.

[davie]

a once a generation fighter just like Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard.

Who lived in the same generation...