Jess Willard vs. Lennox Lewis?

The Keed · Post by **The Keed** » 01 Apr 2003, 20:45

Two big men with big right hands.

Who wins?

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 01 Apr 2003, 23:17

I take Lewis. But comparing guys this far apart seems a little unfair. I ussually keep the comparison with half centuries.

Our knowledge about training methods, suppliments, nutrition, weight training (not many did that back then) and boxing in general has come a long way.

Lewis has too many tools. Willard's jab can not help him here. His chin and stamina may help him last, but it would get ugly.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 02 Apr 2003, 00:37

If you're serious, Terap... you're a dumb bitch.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 02 Apr 2003, 14:16

Zzzzzzz... Oh Ya... Lewis wins. 21rst century athlete against early 1900s farmboy-strongman. This is not to say all of todays fighters would win against their old-time counterparts. But in this case it works.

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 02 Apr 2003, 21:55

For fun lets say the fight is set for 45 rounds in Havana Cuba. And Willard gets to use the wraps and tape they were allowed to use back then.

Only seems fair if Lewis gets all of the perks of today's training and knowledge of fighting.

ANy one change their vote?

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 03 Apr 2003, 03:18

Regardless of the circumstances, I just cant see Lennox getting hit by one of Willards slow, clumsey and severely telegraphed attacks. Yes terap, Lewis beats Jess Willard who was slaughtered by cruiserweight Jack Dempsey.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 03 Apr 2003, 12:20

Terap.. Your minority opinion that Jess Willard could beat Lennox Lewis just seems laughable to me. Maybe Jess might win 1 out of 5 but to think he would do any better is bizzare. Of course it doesnt bother you that no one agrees with you.

The two loses you point out are to Heavyweights and were avenged. You have yet to explain Willard's being destroyed by a cruiserweight. Has Lewis ever lost to a man who weighs 185lbs?

If just 1 forum member agreed with you and seriously explained why Willard was a superior fighter, I might make an attempt to re think my position. A personality trait you might think about incorporating.

I seriously am thinking about the facts here and the two facts you have yet to explain away:

1. Willard defended his title just once before losing it. Lewis has defended his title many times against many different types of fighters.

2. He lost his title to a man he outweighed by 75lbs

If you seriously think Lewis could lose to a man who weighs 185lbs dont expect any further discussion from me.

A.Will · Post by **A.Will** » 03 Apr 2003, 15:04

terap wrote:Obviously glass-chinned Lewis loses.

You really have got some serious problems with anyone who has ever been a heavyweight champion of the world haven't you

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 03 Apr 2003, 21:59

terap wrote:Tomato Can,

What you know about boxing you could write on the head of a pin,

and still have room for your name and address.

That's the best you can do? You could not even address 1 of the reasons I consider Lewis superior to Willard. Obviously your position was a weak one to begin with. Perhaps the fact that you think Willard would win yet you have no idea why says more about your lack of knowledge than it does mine.

In my last post I laid out all the reasons why I think Willard could not beat Lewis. Lets take a look at your last post. Where is all that boxing knowledge you profess to have? It looks like you are just trying to "bring down the forum."

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 04 Apr 2003, 19:23

I agree with you tomato, but this has brought up some interesting schools of thought.

Like you said Willard lost to a man who was only 185 lbs. And like you said I find it very hard to imagine Lewis loosing to a guy that size.

So what does that say for Dempsey? How would he fair against Lewis?

Or other small heavyweights like Joe Louis (who was around 200 pounds)?

You think either would have a chance against a well prepared Lewis? I remember a RIng magazine article saying they picked both smaller men to win over Lewis. What do you think?

I personally think Louis is the best fighting machine we have produced. He could negate size with his titanic power. 6'5" 240-250 lbs. guys like Baer, Simon, and Carnera are proof of that. Sure Lewis is much better than those fighters, but my point is size it self is not enought to beat a magnificant fighter like Joe.

Joe, like Lewis (as you mentioned), has face them all. The fancy boxers. The lighter guys with quick hands (conn), the unothodox fighters (Godoy), the tricky ring generals (Walcott), the giants (Baer, Simon, Carnera), the short squat attackers (Galento), you name them. When you are on top for over a decade you face them all.

I think he would be able to beat Lewis. Joe had the power to KO him. Joe had the power to KO any heavyweight he faced regardless of size.

That being said, Dempsey also had great power. Bone crushing power. ANd I mean that literally. If he caught Lewis with a couple of those shots that broke Willard's eye socket and his jaw right on Lewis' jaw I think he would drop Lewis too.

If Lewis got up he would have hit the canvas again moments later. Dempsey was relentless, and would never let his man off the hook. Like Louis, his power could be felt by any man, regardless of size. A hitter like those two really does come along once a generation.

Dempsey could hurt any man he hit. WIth the gloves from that time, he would brake bones on the regular.

I agree with you that Lewis would beat WIllard under pretty much any conditions (thought I give Willard more credit than calling him a farmboy strongman). I just have a problem with citing his loss to Dempsey as a reason Lewis would beat WIllard.

I guess I get the impression you are not giving Dempsey enough respect. It sounds like you are saying "look if he could loose to that guy then how on earth could he beat Lewis".

MOJO RISIN · Post by **MOJO RISIN** » 04 Apr 2003, 23:16

The notion, that lewis has a glass jaw is ridickulous.
He was clearly up and ready in time in the Mccall bout, and it was ended way to prematurely. The rahman fight took place, so early in the morning Lewis really never looked very awake to me and got caught sleepin, so, to speak. To me that is is only real concrete KO. One fight in 40+ heavyweight matches, especially when the Circumstances such as a wierd start time, hardly give just cause for a glass chin. Joe Louis got Ko'ed by Schmeling once, does he have a glass chin? Heavyweight hit real hard folks, 1 or even 2 knockouts don't constitute a career stigma, Tom Sharkey was knocked out Twice by Gus RUhlin and he was hardly had a glass chin fighting 25 rounds with some broken ribs with Jeffries. Being Knocked out can happen, it's how you Avenge it that proves character.
I think willard wasn't very good on a championship level, the heat more than anything wore Jack Johnson down as he faded after a good showing earlier when he clearly wasn't in great shape.
Lewis would land that big overhand right, and Willard would look like Golata falling through the ropes.
You need to remember in between Johnson-Dempsey he was so booed during the Moran fight, they were throwing things in the ring he was so timid, do you really think he would attack full steam a hulking Lennox?
I don't think so, for a man that couldn't beat Firpo, he wouldn't last long.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 05 Apr 2003, 02:48

6 Pack wrote:I agree with you tomato, but this has brought up some interesting schools of thought.

Like you said Willard lost to a man who was only 185 lbs. And like you said I find it very hard to imagine Lewis loosing to a guy that size.

So what does that say for Dempsey? How would he fair against Lewis?

Or other small heavyweights like Joe Louis (who was around 200 pounds)?

You think either would have a chance against a well prepared Lewis? I remember a RIng magazine article saying they picked both smaller men to win over Lewis. What do you think?

I personally think Louis is the best fighting machine we have produced. He could negate size with his titanic power. 6'5" 240-250 lbs. guys like Baer, Simon, and Carnera are proof of that. Sure Lewis is much better than those fighters, but my point is size it self is not enought to beat a magnificant fighter like Joe.

Joe, like Lewis (as you mentioned), has face them all. The fancy boxers. The lighter guys with quick hands (conn), the unothodox fighters (Godoy), the tricky ring generals (Walcott), the giants (Baer, Simon, Carnera), the short squat attackers (Galento), you name them. When you are on top for over a decade you face them all.

I think he would be able to beat Lewis. Joe had the power to KO him. Joe had the power to KO any heavyweight he faced regardless of size.

That being said, Dempsey also had great power. Bone crushing power. ANd I mean that literally. If he caught Lewis with a couple of those shots that broke Willard's eye socket and his jaw right on Lewis' jaw I think he would drop Lewis too.

If Lewis got up he would have hit the canvas again moments later. Dempsey was relentless, and would never let his man off the hook. Like Louis, his power could be felt by any man, regardless of size. A hitter like those two really does come along once a generation.

Dempsey could hurt any man he hit. WIth the gloves from that time, he would brake bones on the regular.

I agree with you that Lewis would beat WIllard under pretty much any conditions (thought I give Willard more credit than calling him a farmboy strongman). I just have a problem with citing his loss to Dempsey as a reason Lewis would beat WIllard.

I guess I get the impression you are not giving Dempsey enough respect. It sounds like you are saying "look if he could loose to that guy then how on earth could he beat Lewis".

6-pack...After reading your post and then going back to read mine it is clear to me I was overstating my position. Though I still would not give Willard much of a chance to beat Lewis, using Dempsey as an example of any old cruiserweight was not a good idea. I rate Dempsey ahead of Lewis whenever I make an all-time list and although Lewis would present Dempsey with some problems he never had to deal with (combination of speed and size) Jack's fast two fisted attack would probably beat Lewis say 3 out of 5?

Joe Louis on the other hand is in a league of his own. I think it is pretty obvious that Lennox would destroy any 199lb fighter today but even on his best day he would get KOed by Joe. The only fighter that would have a prayer against a prime Joe Louis would be the Muhammad Ali who we saw against Cleveland Williams. It is hard to imagine anybody who ever lived beating Muhammad that night.

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 05 Apr 2003, 12:38

We are on the same page now

I also think not many would beat JOe. As for Ali the night he beat Williams...how about Joe the night he beat Max in the rematch? Could have been a good one.

Joe just gave me the feeling he was invincable in his prime. He could beat any style. But I think Ali was right up there with him.

SOme times its hard to say who was better. I ussually lean towards Joe. With those two, I can be argued either way who was better.

BTW I agree with you on Willard-Lewis, Dempsey-Lewis, Lewis-Louis, and may be even Louis-Ali (and that is saying alot, as I regard Louis as the best).

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 05 Apr 2003, 13:47

6-pack...Overall, career wise I also lean toward Louis as the best heavy ever. It's just that Ali on that one night against Williams. Wow!!

Then you have to go bring up Louis the night he beat Schmeling. Joe was so detemined that night he could have beat five guys at once. That really is a tough one to pick so I wont even try

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 05 Apr 2003, 13:48

MOJO RISIN,

You are right that Lewis would beat Willard. You are right that Lewis does not have a "glass" chin.

But some of your points on WIllard seem bias. True he jabbed his way to victory over Moran (newpaper decision any ways), but after killing Bull Young he was content to jab his way to a win if possible. That is a major reason he appeared 'timid' in fights at times.

A win is a win. WIth an 84 inch reach you might as well be a jabber. He did beat a number of world class contenders (Morris, Moran, Johnson, Pelkey, Rodel, etc.) and was the heavyweight champion of the world. He must have done alright at the championship level.

THough I agree he was an average champion and not one of the stand outs.

As for his loss to Firpo you brought up...Willard was 41 years old and in his second fight of an illadvised comeback. He would have beat Firpo in his prime. Hey, ALi lost to Berbick too, but you won't catch me talking trash about that loss.

But you are right, WIllard would not beat Lewis. Lewis has too many tools. While i agree with you there, I do think Willard is better than you are letting on (for his era that is).
If you are insinuating that Firpo was better than WIllard you are way off.

A.Will · Post by **A.Will** » 07 Apr 2003, 15:08

MOJO RISIN wrote:The notion, that lewis has a glass jaw is ridickulous.
He was clearly up and ready in time in the Mccall bout, and it was ended way to prematurely. The rahman fight took place, so early in the morning Lewis really never looked very awake to me and got caught sleepin, so, to speak. To me that is is only real concrete KO. One fight in 40+ heavyweight matches, especially when the Circumstances such as a wierd start time, hardly give just cause for a glass chin. Joe Louis got Ko'ed by Schmeling once, does he have a glass chin? Heavyweight hit real hard folks, 1 or even 2 knockouts don't constitute a career stigma, Tom Sharkey was knocked out Twice by Gus RUhlin and he was hardly had a glass chin fighting 25 rounds with some broken ribs with Jeffries. Being Knocked out can happen, it's how you Avenge it that proves character.
I think willard wasn't very good on a championship level, the heat more than anything wore Jack Johnson down as he faded after a good showing earlier when he clearly wasn't in great shape.
Lewis would land that big overhand right, and Willard would look like Golata falling through the ropes.
You need to remember in between Johnson-Dempsey he was so booed during the Moran fight, they were throwing things in the ring he was so timid, do you really think he would attack full steam a hulking Lennox?
I don't think so, for a man that couldn't beat Firpo, he wouldn't last long.

The only problem is that Louis got Ko'd by Schmeling and Marciano, don't you think they hit just a teenie bit harder than McCall or Rahman.