28.06.1950. Rocky Graziano vs Jake La Motta

[Keko]

This fight was cancelled because of an injury - what would you think would be the outcome if it had taken place?

[klompton]

LaMotta would have won and Graziano knew it. Supposedly, according to press present at his camp, Rocky was under the impression that Jake wasnt going to go through with the fight. When he was told that the fight was on he walked over to a tree and punched it, breaking his finger and giving him an excuse to drop out of a title shot. Remember, Graziano got his ranking hy beating shot lightweights and welterweights and losing 2 of 3 to a guy who ducked jake for years. His only real asset was his punch and he wasnt knocking jake out. He knew he couldnt beat jake. Its one of the easiest mythical matchups to pick. Jake by decision or stoppage, doesnt matter, hed kick the shit out of Graziano.

[Keko]

Rocky is up to 1946 years had to 154 lb and often less while the Jake in career started with 170 lb. Also interesting.

I do not think Rocky fleeing the fighting or agree to Jake probably got the decision. A shame that is not made after the match.

[gilgamesh]

I can't see any scenario where Rocky Graziano wins this. He's a big right hand puncher, but Lamotta has one of the most famously hard to dent chins of all time, and I think he'd take Graziano's best right hands and keep right on pressuring Graziano and beating the hell out of him to the body and head until he broke his will and broke his body down and got the TKO.

Lamotta TKO between 7 and 10. I don't think Graziano could beat Lamotta if they fought 20 times.

[Kalan]

Graziano would win if they really went at it with a vengeance.. LaMotta would win if they didn't want to fight that bad because they were buddies.. Neither could box a lick.. Both got tagged up like crazy but LaMotta a little more.. Rocky was the harder puncher by far.. LaMotta was a light hitter but Graziano could fire.. He was a little wild and possibly would get outboxed if they sparred around for much of the fight..

They both knocked Sugar Ray Robinson down, but Graziano's wild shot was very far from flush.. Obviously LaMotta had the better chin but there would be no KO. Whoever scored the most would win and it wouldn’t be artistic.

[klompton]

Graziano would win if they really went at it with a vengeance.. LaMotta would win if they didn't want to fight that bad because they were buddies.. Neither could box a lick.. Both got tagged up like crazy but LaMotta a little more.. Rocky was the harder puncher by far.. LaMotta was a light hitter but Graziano could fire.. He was a little wild and possibly would get outboxed if they sparred around for much of the fight..

They both knocked Sugar Ray Robinson down, but Graziano's wild shot was very far from flush.. Obviously LaMotta had the better chin but there would be no KO. Whoever scored the most would win and it wouldn’t be artistic.

"Neither could box a lick" ??? You haven't seen much of LaMotta I take it. How do you outjab Ray Robinson not knowing how to box a lick? Graziano didn't hit anywhere near as hard as Bob Satterfield and Bob Murphy and both those guys were bigger, stronger, and better boxers than Graziano and LaMotta beat both. In fact how many rated middleweights did Graziano even beat to prove he was on Jakes level. Theres a reason Zale CHOSE to fight Graziano over Jake LaMotta...

[Ambling Alp II]

A lot what said in this last post. Agree with some of it; not all all of it.
LaMottta did not outjab Robinson. If it is implied that Zale ducked LaMotta, that is doubtful.

LaMotta certainly beat much better competition that Graziano did.
Graziano was a hard puncher but probably did not hit hard enough to stop LaMotta who had a great chin. LaMotta didn't hit that hard but the sheer amount of punches might be enough to eventually stop Graziano.

[APerno]

On Zale ducking La Motta

I would have no way of knowing - but in regards to Graziano, that was a mega fight - everyone (in New York) was calling Graziano the uncrowned champion - New Yorkers were demanding/calling for the fight - Zale v. Graziano was a mega fight even before it was a great fight. - La Motta never had the kind of passionate following that Graziano had. - Zale v. Graziano made sense, but that doesn't mean Zale wasn't ducking La Motta, maybe he was, but Graziano was the money fight.

[Kalan]

Graziano would win if they really went at it with a vengeance.. LaMotta would win if they didn't want to fight that bad because they were buddies.. Neither could box a lick.. Both got tagged up like crazy but LaMotta a little more.. Rocky was the harder puncher by far.. LaMotta was a light hitter but Graziano could fire.. He was a little wild and possibly would get outboxed if they sparred around for much of the fight..

They both knocked Sugar Ray Robinson down, but Graziano's wild shot was very far from flush.. Obviously LaMotta had the better chin but there would be no KO. Whoever scored the most would win and it wouldn’t be artistic.

"Neither could box a lick" ??? You haven't seen much of LaMotta I take it. How do you outjab Ray Robinson not knowing how to box a lick? Graziano didn't hit anywhere near as hard as Bob Satterfield and Bob Murphy and both those guys were bigger, stronger, and better boxers than Graziano and LaMotta beat both. In fact how many rated middleweights did Graziano even beat to prove he was on Jakes level. Theres a reason Zale CHOSE to fight Graziano over Jake LaMotta...

I've seen enough of LaMotta to know he couldn't box, couldn't out-jab Robinson, and never did too much to Robinson... He beat Robbie once when he outweighed him by a lot and put him down with a body shot... LaMotta lost a lot of fights to guys who weren't real good boxers... He was very easy to hit... He wouldn't have a prayer against Roy Jones, Hopkins, Toney, Griffith, Valdez, Monzon, Nunn, McCallum, Golovkin, Martinez, Cotto, Canelo, Golovkin, Jacobs, Saunders, Quillin, or anyone who can box pretty well... I concede he was a better boxer than Graziano,.. That's why I posted that if they were sparring around too much LaMotta would win... Graziano would have to throw like he did in Zale 2 and keep throwing.

[Kalan]

Middleweight Champs who LaMotta would have a fair chance to beat: Daniel Geale... Darren Barker... Paul Pender... Gene Fullmer... Carmen Basilio... Felix Sturm... and Iran Barkley... He was in the right place at the right time when Marcel Cerdan suffered a freak shoulder injury and couldn't finish... I think tough battlers like Dick Tiger and Mickey Walker would have beaten the crap out of him because they had more power.

[davie]

So the Jake Lamotta, that beat SRR and would, in your opinion, beat Gene Fulmer and Carmen Basilio, wouldn't stand a chance with Billy Joe Saunders?

How do you even construct the following sentence with a straight face
"Roy Jones, Hopkins, Toney, Griffith, Valdez, Monzon, Nunn, McCallum, Golovkin, Martinez, Cotto, Canelo, Golovkin, Jacobs, Saunders, Quillin"

Seriously, how can you put all these names together? what do they all have in common, other than they all had 2 arms?

[Kalan]

So the Jake Lamotta, that beat SRR and would, in your opinion, beat Gene Fulmer and Carmen Basilio, wouldn't stand a chance with Billy Joe Saunders?

How do you even construct the following sentence with a straight face
"Roy Jones, Hopkins, Toney, Griffith, Valdez, Monzon, Nunn, McCallum, Golovkin, Martinez, Cotto, Canelo, Golovkin, Jacobs, Saunders, Quillin"

Seriously, how can you put all these names together? what do they all have in common, other than they all had 2 arms?

They can all box well can't they??? ... Something LaMotta was very challenged at. Admit it please... When LaMotta had 28 fights he had 4 losses and a draw.. The guys who beat him weren't very good boxers -- they were better than LaMotta and that's it.. When you watch his fights he's not very good and he's a weak hitter.. LaMotta had very poor discipline and his record was spotted with losses throughout his career.. He was a bit of a psycho, and it's remarkable he didn't self destruct.. How do you get a babe like Vicki and accuse her of blowing your brother? The idiot really did things like that and admitted it.

Saunders is the guy you're picking on and I'm no fan of his either because he's insane too... But he's unbeaten. He"s 5'11" and weighs 170+ into the ring.. He can box and punch well and he has real talent, but he's the biggest jerk in the world.. He's not going to remain unbeaten because he seems to be falling off the rails like Tyson Fury. I don't know what's wrong with those 2 idiots.. Saunders has made an arch enemy of Eubank and if they fight again he'll get knocked out after being punished severely. He might just decide to retire like Fury, because his mouth has written checks his fists can't cash.

And as for your question about Carmen Basilio, you've got to be kidding!!! ... He was very short and hittable and his record was very spotty, losing to guys who weren't very good. So yes, I think BJS would prevail over Basilio because he's so much bigger and stronger.. Didn't Gene Fullmer stop Basilio twice??? And didn't Gene Fullmer go 26 fights without scoring a single KO??? That included his first 2 fights with Sugar Ray Robinson. So you're telling me that these banjo hitters like LaMotta and Basilio are going to beat Saunders?

[davie]

So the Jake Lamotta, that beat SRR and would, in your opinion, beat Gene Fulmer and Carmen Basilio, wouldn't stand a chance with Billy Joe Saunders?

How do you even construct the following sentence with a straight face
"Roy Jones, Hopkins, Toney, Griffith, Valdez, Monzon, Nunn, McCallum, Golovkin, Martinez, Cotto, Canelo, Golovkin, Jacobs, Saunders, Quillin"

Seriously, how can you put all these names together? what do they all have in common, other than they all had 2 arms?

They can all box well can't they??? ... Something LaMotta was very challenged at. Admit it please... When LaMotta had 28 fights he had 4 losses and a draw.. The guys who beat him weren't very good boxers -- they were better than LaMotta and that's it.. When you watch his fights he's not very good and he's a weak hitter.. LaMotta had very poor discipline and his record was spotted with losses throughout his career.. He was a bit of a psycho, and it's remarkable he didn't self destruct.. How do you get a babe like Vicki and accuse her of blowing your brother? The idiot really did things like that and admitted it.

Saunders is the guy you're picking on and I'm no fan of his either because he's insane too... But he's unbeaten. He"s 5'11" and weighs 170+ into the ring.. He can box and punch well and he has real talent, but he's the biggest jerk in the world.. He's not going to remain unbeaten because he seems to be falling off the rails like Tyson Fury. I don't know what's wrong with those 2 idiots.. Saunders has made an arch enemy of Eubank and if they fight again he'll get knocked out after being punished severely. He might just decide to retire like Fury, because his mouth has written checks his fists can't cash.

And as for your question about Carmen Basilio, you've got to be kidding!!! ... He was very short and hittable and his record was very spotty, losing to guys who weren't very good. So yes, I think BJS would prevail over Basilio because he's so much bigger and stronger.. Didn't Gene Fullmer stop Basilio twice??? And didn't Gene Fullmer go 26 fights without scoring a single KO??? That included his first 2 fights with Sugar Ray Robinson. So you're telling me that these banjo hitters like LaMotta and Basilio are going to beat Saunders?

Yes, all day every day
He's not very good
I can't believe we are even discussing it

[Ambling Alp II]

You are conversing with someone who does not understand context. LaMotta had those 28 fights in his first 15 months of fighting! LaMotta was fighting about once every two weeks! One of his losses came three days after his previous fight!

All of that is lost on him. LaMotta was simply outboxed; he knows this even though he never actually saw these fights.

He thinks pretty win/loss records are important without taking inconsideration the quality of competition.
He thinks the number of title defenses are the "Gold Standard" of rating a fighter. Doesn't matter who the title defenses are against.
A disputed win over a fighter 10 years past his prime is the same as beating clearly in his prime.

If someone believe all that, it's no wonder he says things like this.

[klompton]

Ive seen Kalan say some ignorant things before but I believe his posts here take the cake.

[Kalan]

So the Jake Lamotta, that beat SRR and would, in your opinion, beat Gene Fulmer and Carmen Basilio, wouldn't stand a chance with Billy Joe Saunders?

How do you even construct the following sentence with a straight face
"Roy Jones, Hopkins, Toney, Griffith, Valdez, Monzon, Nunn, McCallum, Golovkin, Martinez, Cotto, Canelo, Golovkin, Jacobs, Saunders, Quillin"

Seriously, how can you put all these names together? what do they all have in common, other than they all had 2 arms?

They can all box well can't they??? ... Something LaMotta was very challenged at. Admit it please... When LaMotta had 28 fights he had 4 losses and a draw.. The guys who beat him weren't very good boxers -- they were better than LaMotta and that's it.. When you watch his fights he's not very good and he's a weak hitter.. LaMotta had very poor discipline and his record was spotted with losses throughout his career.. He was a bit of a psycho, and it's remarkable he didn't self destruct.. How do you get a babe like Vicki and accuse her of blowing your brother? The idiot really did things like that and admitted it.

Saunders is the guy you're picking on and I'm no fan of his either because he's insane too... But he's unbeaten. He"s 5'11" and weighs 170+ into the ring.. He can box and punch well and he has real talent, but he's the biggest jerk in the world.. He's not going to remain unbeaten because he seems to be falling off the rails like Tyson Fury. I don't know what's wrong with those 2 idiots.. Saunders has made an arch enemy of Eubank and if they fight again he'll get knocked out after being punished severely. He might just decide to retire like Fury, because his mouth has written checks his fists can't cash.

And as for your question about Carmen Basilio, you've got to be kidding!!! ... He was very short and hittable and his record was very spotty, losing to guys who weren't very good. So yes, I think BJS would prevail over Basilio because he's so much bigger and stronger.. Didn't Gene Fullmer stop Basilio twice??? And didn't Gene Fullmer go 26 fights without scoring a single KO??? That included his first 2 fights with Sugar Ray Robinson. So you're telling me that these banjo hitters like LaMotta and Basilio are going to beat Saunders?

Yes, all day every day
He's not very good
I can't believe we are even discussing it

Have you ever seen LaMotta or Basilio box??? ... I want to know how you figure that a small Welterweight like Basilio, who was knocked out by the bigger, stronger Fullmer for his 14th and 15th losses---and remember Fullmer went 26 straight fights in his prime without scoring a single KO win, Fullmer was a very light hitter---could beat an undefeated World Champion who goes 5'11" and can box and punch??? Saunders went 12 rounds with Chris Eubank who's a brutally powerful man -- a killer who puts people into Intensive Care.. I think what people tend to do, is if boxers fought generations ago, no matter how slow, clumsy, or bad they were, they were automatically better than the top guys fighting today.. Especially if the old timers were Americans and the contemporary boxers are foreigners.

[klompton]

I wont even waste my time arguing with an idiot who thinks Billy Joe fornicating Saunders would beat Gene Fullmer, much less Jake LaMotta simply because those guys werent punchers. Its the definiton of stupidity.

[davie]

Have you ever seen LaMotta or Basilio box??? ...

Yes I have

--could beat an undefeated World Champion who goes 5'11" and can box and punch???

Have you ever seen Saunders fight?

the guy can't punch for shit!

I need to break this statement down to really pick it apart, as it's utterly ridiculous from start to finish

Billy Joe Saunders is "undefeated". He has fought no one. his 2 best wins are against Andy Lee and Matt Korobov. I'm not even going to start to compare those names to the lists on Basilio and Lamottas records. Yes these guys lost but they fought in an era when they fought far far more regularly at the top level. From 52-61, Basilios record is packed, same goes for Lamotta fro 42-52

"world champion" Billy Joe Saunder is one world champion of many. He beat an ordinary Andy Lee, who only held the title because he picked up a vacant tile against an equally ordinary Korobov and even then he was getting beat when his right hand dug him out.
If he'd fought in an era like the 40s and 50s, he would not have been considered a chmpion until he fought and beat GGG. Something he will only do when he decides to cash out. Simple as that

5'11". Lamotta and Basillio fought and beat guys at 5'11". they went the distance with 5'11", Sugar Ray Robinson was 5'11", not to mention he could also box and punch (just a bit)
It has absolutely no relevance or bearing on anything what so ever. None, nada. please stop mentioning it like it actually mean something


In your posts, you go on at length listing the various wins and losses of fighters through the ages but can't look at the careers of BJS and CEJ and realise that they have fought pretty much no one worth talking about

Just look at the guys Carmen Basilio and Jake lamotta shared a ring with, the legends of the sport he beat or took the distance.
The latter took so much from Robinson they got De Niro to play him in a film to tell the world how fornicating hard he was.
But Saunder is too much of a puncher for him?
Do you even think about this shit before you post it

[davie]

I wont even waste my time arguing with an idiot who thinks Billy Joe effing Saunders would beat Gene Fullmer, much less Jake LaMotta simply because those guys werent punchers. Its the definiton of stupidity.

One of these days I'll learn but I just can't help myself, I really can't.

It shouldn't even require explanation, but I simply cannot see such utter tripe and not challenge it

And that's how the trolls win

[Kalan]

I wont even waste my time arguing with an idiot who thinks Billy Joe effing Saunders would beat Gene Fullmer, much less Jake LaMotta simply because those guys werent punchers. Its the definiton of stupidity.

You're beyond stupid... How many 2nd raters beat Gene Fullmer??? A fellow by the name of Bobby Boyd boxed the crap out him in his 34th fight... Boyd had been knocked out 5 times in his 6 losses when he faced the punchless Fullmer.. Fullmer also got a lot of rigged decisions up in Utah.

Saunders is a bigger, taller, faster, stronger, punches much harder, and boxes much better than the slow, plodding, punchless Fullmer.

[Kalan]

I liked the Tiger-Fullmer fights.. Except the 2nd one where Fullmer ran all night and got a gift draw.. Tiger couldn't box well but he beat the crap out of Fullmer

[Kalan]

Have you ever seen Saunders fight?

the guy can't punch for poo

I've seen him fight several times because he's appeared on American TV. His fights are available as well as all the top 50's fighters.

Saying he can't punch for poop is a blanket condemnation isn't it? He's a fair puncher. He took out Blandamura and Fletcher pretty impressively and he has a 50% KO ratio.. He certainly can't punch like GGG, Ketchel, or Monzon but he has fair power for a Middleweight. Garziano and Zale punched harder, but LaMotta, Basilio, and Fuller had KO ratios in the 20's and 30's. They mostly beat the living crap out of people to stop them and didn't take impressive cuts. I don't think Andy Lee is a good boxer for instance, but he's a dangerous puncher. Same with Graziano.

[klompton]

Lauds Billy Joe Saunders then bashes Bobby Boyd.

Bobby Boyd would have kicked the living shit out of Billy Joe Saunders. Boyd was a terrific talent that was fighting contenders in his second year as a pro. He was a damn good contender who had his career essentially ruined after a brutal stoppage to all time great Joey Giardello (Who would have also kicked the shit out of Graziano and Saunders).

[davie]

Have you ever seen Saunders fight?

the guy can't punch for poo

I've seen him fight several times because he's appeared on American TV. His fights are available as well as all the top 50's fighters.

Saying he can't punch for poop is a blanket condemnation isn't it? He's a fair puncher. He took out Blandamura and Fletcher pretty impressively and he has a 50% KO ratio.. He certainly can't punch like GGG, Ketchel, or Monzon but he has fair power for a Middleweight. Garziano and Zale punched harder, but LaMotta, Basilio, and Fuller had KO ratios in the 20's and 30's. They mostly beat the living crap out of people to stop them and didn't take impressive cuts. I don't think Andy Lee is a good boxer for instance, but he's a dangerous puncher. Same with Graziano.

Another thing worth bearing in mind is there were fights with Basilio and Lamotta where their opponent would have been stopped many times over in the current day. Equally there are opponents of Billy Joes that would have been allowed to fight on in the 50, guys who may have gone on to fight the distance and make BJS KO record look less impressive or better still, beaten him.

In Basilios 5 consecutive fight of the year contests, how many times do you think Carmen or his opponent would have got pulled out in the present day in those 5 contests alone

I don't think I even need to list fight where the same applies to Lamotta

I'm in the UK and BJS has been televised since he turned pro more or less, I've probably watched every fight of his (more or less) and can say with some authority, the guy is no puncher.

[Kalan]

I think it depends more on the referee than the era the fight took place...

Some referees pull the plug too early and some idiots wait too long to jump in... There aren't a whole lot of fights that get stopped early but Froch-Groves 1 was one of them.. Nobody could complain about Froch-Groves II -- I don't know if you were there...

Larry Holmes tried to wave the referee in versus young Marvis Frazier, who only had 10 previous fights and was overmatched... The referee ignored Holmes, so Larry made like, "Well, I guess I'm going to have to kill this kid" and started smashing Marvis, and the referee finally jumped in... The Griffith-Paret fight was an abomination -- and the referee just stood there and watched as Tommy Morrison was held up by the ropes as Ray Mercer issued bips to his chin... Mercer didn't load up with Morrison helpless, because he was waiting for the referee to do something.