hhaehre wrote:This whole contract story is falling apart quickly, isn't it?keithmoonhangover wrote:I thought Ali refused to sign the contract?Kalan wrote:The contract was only valid if Ali beat Frazier and retained the Heavyweight Championship. Ali punked out by getting beaten up, decked hard, and losing.
Yes Kalan, but Wilt never applied for a licence did he?Kalan wrote:Conor McGregor never had a boxing match... He got a license in case his proposed fight with Mayweather got through negotiations with Dana White etc. The commission certainly wouldn't hold it up.. They approved his fight with Berto who lost 3 his previous 6, when there were much tougher Welterweights available for Mayweather to fight. I think a famous Author who never had a fight fought Jack Johnson in a World Title Fight. I'll have to check that out. I'm sure Jeffries, Corbett, and Fitzsimmons fought raw novices and Patterson fought a guy making his pro debut.. Do commissions sanction fights that don't make any sense??? ... Obviously they do and you know it... Joe Louis fought a raw novice who had no ability for the Heavyweight Title -- and so did many others..Controversial wrote:So name some, the criteria is they had zero amateur or pro fights and fought for a world title in their debut.Kalan wrote:
MANY a world champions fought novices -- and some who were making their pro debut, so don't talk like an ignorant jackass... Commissions let just about anybody fight just about anybody... When it comes to raw novices, many boxers have been in the business of lining them up and punching them out... Sean O'Grady was one who fought guys making their pro debut when he had over 50 pro fights.
Unlike those cannon fodder fights, Chamberlain-Ali made a lot of sense... The guy in the most danger of getting hurt in the Ali-Chamberlain fight was Ali... Everybody knew it and that's why the fight was promoted and the public interest was so big... Chamberlain was so big, tall, long, athletic, fast, strong, and powerful that nobody in their right mind would want to step into a ring against him if he had 6 months of boxing lessons and sparring.
So these guys had zero amateur and pro fights when they fought for a world title? Don't go making a schoolboy error and assume that records from 100 odd years ago that are incomplete means they actually had zero fights.Kalan wrote:Conor McGregor never had a boxing match... He got a license in case his proposed fight with Mayweather got through negotiations with Dana White etc. The commission certainly wouldn't hold it up.. They approved his fight with Berto who lost 3 his previous 6, when there were much tougher Welterweights available for Mayweather to fight. I think a famous Author who never had a fight fought Jack Johnson in a World Title Fight. I'll have to check that out. I'm sure Jeffries, Corbett, and Fitzsimmons fought raw novices and Patterson fought a guy making his pro debut.. Do commissions sanction fights that don't make any sense??? ... Obviously they do and you know it... Joe Louis fought a raw novice who had no ability for the Heavyweight Title -- and so did many others..Controversial wrote:So name some, the criteria is they had zero amateur or pro fights and fought for a world title in their debut.Kalan wrote:
MANY a world champions fought novices -- and some who were making their pro debut, so don't talk like an ignorant jackass... Commissions let just about anybody fight just about anybody... When it comes to raw novices, many boxers have been in the business of lining them up and punching them out... Sean O'Grady was one who fought guys making their pro debut when he had over 50 pro fights.
Unlike those cannon fodder fights, Chamberlain-Ali made a lot of sense... The guy in the most danger of getting hurt in the Ali-Chamberlain fight was Ali... Everybody knew it and that's why the fight was promoted and the public interest was so big... Chamberlain was so big, tall, long, athletic, fast, strong, and powerful that nobody in their right mind would want to step into a ring against him if he had 6 months of boxing lessons and sparring.
This just in... BuzzBox is an idiot who never thinks things through before he posts... Chamberlain wasn't the World's most famous athlete when Marciano fought... The public wasn't aware of him... What was Marciano's excuse for retiring and not facing Patterson??? What were Patterson's excuses for avoiding Sonny Liston for so long??? What was Ali's excuse for fighting unranked Leon Spinks instead of Larry Holmes??? What were Martinez, Chavez, Cotto, Canelo, Saunders, and Jacobs' excuses for not fighting Golovkin??? What was Mayweather's excuse for fighting Berto instead of Thurman or Brook??? What was Santa Cruz's excuse for avoiding Gary Russell, and before that Vasyl Lomachenko??? The real reason for such things is that they don't want to be knocked out and they don't find it too difficult to avoid that risk.BoxBuzz wrote:Kalan wrote:I'm not saying Ali DELIBERATELY lost to a fat little pudgy shorty like Frazier... who weighed only 205, and had short arms and was wide open for everything, as the big, strong, powerful George Foreman later proved when he blew little Smokin' out in only 2 rounds... Ali tried hard to beat the little tyke, but he just didn't have the firepower to compete that well at that time, apparently... In the back of Ali's mind might have been the idea that if he won the fight, there was a valid contract out there for him to meet Chamberlain...
Psychological factors can work insipidly on your brain, because Ali had no trouble beating Frazier when there was no Chamberlain fight in the offing. However, with Ali's history of punking out on Wilt Chamberlain fights -- if he won, I'm sure he would have found another way out of the fight.
This just in!
I like the above factoiding! This could be the troo fax! We'll never know fer sure....id'll be a misteree FOR ALL TIMES!
Butt I'll betcha by golly wow, that it jez mite bee sew!!
With all that said...just what was the Rock's excuse for not facing Chamberlain?.....and let's not get into the "age" thing....as you've taught us all, those "swan song" fights are just as meaningful as a fighters Prime, when it comes to getting down to the nitty gritty. If he could fight Ali via Computer, surely he could've gloved up for real to face Wilt.
Fear of Frazier? Ellis? Terrell? Ernie was pretty tall himself ya know.Controversial wrote:If Chamberlain was so desperate to be HW champ why didn't he just arrange fights with other champs? As it's so simple for a novice to fight for the world title it would've been very easy to arrange.
Frazier was very short so an easy win for Stilt surely. It baffles me what Chamberlain was playing at, it's almost like he was trying to get publicity by using the most famous HW of the day and negotiate a better basketball contract. But he wouldn't do that would he?BoxBuzz wrote:Fear of Frazier? Ellis? Terrell? Ernie was pretty tall himself ya know.Controversial wrote:If Chamberlain was so desperate to be HW champ why didn't he just arrange fights with other champs? As it's so simple for a novice to fight for the world title it would've been very easy to arrange.
Until Kalan produces some kind of evidence of a contract or at least Wilt's boxing licence, then what do we actually have?Controversial wrote:Frazier was very short so an easy win for Stilt surely. It baffles me what Chamberlain was playing at, it's almost like he was trying to get publicity by using the most famous HW of the day and negotiate a better basketball contract. But he wouldn't do that would he?BoxBuzz wrote:Fear of Frazier? Ellis? Terrell? Ernie was pretty tall himself ya know.Controversial wrote:If Chamberlain was so desperate to be HW champ why didn't he just arrange fights with other champs? As it's so simple for a novice to fight for the world title it would've been very easy to arrange.
I'll address your last bullcrap first... He wasn't concerned... And it wouldn't have made any difference if he was concerned... Because it would only divulge that he's a rank idiot... The guy running Wilt Chamberlain was Wilt Chamberlain and he knew he could kill Ali, and people needed to worry about AliBoxBuzz wrote:Yeah, I was just ribbin' ya about the Marciano-Wilt in real time thing. Let it go...
ON THE OTHER HAND.....regarding your statement on Wilt vs Ali....
Did "EVERYBODY" know it? Or just "Everybody" on the East Coast?
Why didn't anyone tell Wilt's dad? Or was he not part of "Everybody?"
Cuz he was all worried and concerned.
We have this evidence that Ali refused to sign the contract to fight Chamberlain.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0skeithmoonhangover wrote:Until Kalan produces some kind of evidence of a contract or at least Wilt's boxing licence, then what do we actually have?
I see a pen, I don't see a contract. Where is the contract in this video? This is your key piece of evidence and there is no paper in sight. Do you know what a contract looks like?Kalan wrote:We have this evidence that Ali refused to sign the contract to fight Chamberlain.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0skeithmoonhangover wrote:Until Kalan produces some kind of evidence of a contract or at least Wilt's boxing licence, then what do we actually have?
So not only did Kalan not realise the video was from 1967 and not 1971 he also didn't realise there was no contract in the video. Oh dear, can it get any worse?keithmoonhangover wrote:I see a pen, I don't see a contract. Where is the contract in this video? This is your key piece of evidence and there is no paper in sight. Do you know what a contract looks like?Kalan wrote:We have this evidence that Ali refused to sign the contract to fight Chamberlain.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0skeithmoonhangover wrote:Until Kalan produces some kind of evidence of a contract or at least Wilt's boxing licence, then what do we actually have?
I think Kalan needs to man up and admit that he was wrong.Controversial wrote:So not only did Kalan not realise the video was from 1967 and not 1971 he also didn't realise there was no contract in the video. Oh dear, can it get any worse?keithmoonhangover wrote:I see a pen, I don't see a contract. Where is the contract in this video? This is your key piece of evidence and there is no paper in sight. Do you know what a contract looks like?Kalan wrote:
We have this evidence that Ali refused to sign the contract to fight Chamberlain.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s
Right after Bob Fitzsimmons won the World Heavyweight Championship he fought Lew Joslin, who was making his debut and never fought an amateur or professional fight in his life before or afterwards he fought Fitz... He was simply a guy who wanted to fight the champ so he was obliged.Controversial wrote:A complete novice would never be allowed to fight for a world title in their debut so stop talking nonsense. So name some, the criteria is they had zero amateur or pro fights and fought for a world title in their debut.
It wasn't for the HW title was it. Try again.Kalan wrote:Right after Bob Fitzsimmons won the World Heavyweight Championship he fought Lew Joslin, who was making his debut and never fought an amateur or professional fight in his life before or afterwards he fought Fitz... He was simply a guy who wanted to fight the champ so he was obliged.Controversial wrote:A complete novice would never be allowed to fight for a world title in their debut so stop talking nonsense. So name some, the criteria is they had zero amateur or pro fights and fought for a world title in their debut.
There are no "overweight" fights for Heavyweights so the title is always on the line... Joslin had no possible chance in the world to win so why make the fight??? I Boxing matches don't have to make sense. If Fitz did a promotional tour with Joslin nobody would have cared. He wasn't a famous athlete, famous fighter, or famous person. He didn't have a following. That didn't stop the fight from happening
I always said the video was from the 1960's not the 1970's... Ali refused to sign the contract when Chamberlain produced his pens... Chamberlain's lawyer had a signed copy of the contract "I have in my hands a signed contract. The fight is actually going to happen." But Ali refused to sign it.keithmoonhangover wrote:I think Kalan needs to man up and admit that he was wrong.Controversial wrote:So not only did Kalan not realise the video was from 1967 and not 1971 he also didn't realise there was no contract in the video. Oh dear, can it get any worse?keithmoonhangover wrote:
I see a pen, I don't see a contract. Where is the contract in this video? This is your key piece of evidence and there is no paper in sight. Do you know what a contract looks like?
No you frequently mixed the events of 1967 and 1971 together, you didn't know at all.Kalan wrote:I always said the video was from the 1960's not the 1970's... Ali refused to sign the contract when Chamberlain produced his pens... Chamberlain's lawyer had a signed copy of the contract "I have in my hands a signed contract. The fight is actually going to happen." But Ali refused to sign it.keithmoonhangover wrote:I think Kalan needs to man up and admit that he was wrong.Controversial wrote:
So not only did Kalan not realise the video was from 1967 and not 1971 he also didn't realise there was no contract in the video. Oh dear, can it get any worse?
And don't be an idiot... Ali would never get into a ring with Wilt Chamberlain in a million years... Larry Holmes was a lot smaller and less intimidating than Wilt Chamberlain, and it took Ali YEARS to agree to a fight with Holmes -- of course Ali got his ass trashed big time when he finally did fight
Larry Holmes said, "Nobody is going to fight Wilt Chamberlain. He's too big and strong. I wouldn't fight him." and Holmes said about Too Tall Jones, who was also a great athlete but much smaller than Chamberlain.. "I don't think it's going to work. How do you fight somebody like Too Tall Jones???
Holmes said he would fight Jones, "In the near future" ... meaning weeks or a couple months... He wouldn't give Jones time to develop his game. Holmes reiterated his thought that if Jones became a good boxer nobody was going to fight him... That played out... Jones got 3 decent fights in 3 weeks and the pace slowed down... After he smashed out Montes in 41 seconds he couldn't get any fights at all -- except with 5th raters desperate for rent money after they beat the canebreaks for weeks to turn up a desperate soul... NOBODY wants to watch a slaughter like that.. Too Tall was completely screwed.Controversial wrote:No you frequently mixed the events of 1967 and 1971 together, you didn't know at all.Kalan wrote:I always said the video was from the 1960's not the 1970's... Ali refused to sign the contract when Chamberlain produced his pens... Chamberlain's lawyer had a signed copy of the contract "I have in my hands a signed contract. The fight is actually going to happen." But Ali refused to sign it.keithmoonhangover wrote:
I think Kalan needs to man up and admit that he was wrong.
And don't be an idiot... Ali would never get into a ring with Wilt Chamberlain in a million years... Larry Holmes was a lot smaller and less intimidating than Wilt Chamberlain, and it took Ali YEARS to agree to a fight with Holmes -- of course Ali got his ass trashed big time when he finally did fight
Larry Holmes said, "Nobody is going to fight Wilt Chamberlain. He's too big and strong. I wouldn't fight him." and Holmes said about Too Tall Jones, who was also a great athlete but much smaller than Chamberlain.. "I don't think it's going to work. How do you fight somebody like Too Tall Jones???
You have no proof of a contract, no contract can be seen.
If Chamberlain wanted to fight for the HW title why only didn't he challenge anyone else or at least have a few fights to show he was serious?
If Ali didn't want to fight him why go through it all again in 1971? It's well documented that Chamberlain pulled out using various excuses such as money and his dad.
You can't produce a list of complete novices with zero amateur and pro fights fighting for a world title in their debut.
Holmes said he would fight Jones.
Chamberlain did all the dancing to get it done... Ali did all the mealy mouthed side stepping -- saying he had to wait to sign the contract.. and "Don't rush things" All Chamberlain wanted to know is WHEN Ali was going to sign for the fight.. He was real.. He didn't want to scam the public like Ali did.BoxBuzz wrote:Here's what's real.
Wilt was not willing to do the proper dance to get this fight signed. It could never be done on the challegers terms....and Ali's handlers made such decisions. And believe me if the money was REALLY there for this to have happened, and WILT REALLY wanted it....there is nothing that could have stopped it