Classic American West Coast Boxing

dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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scartissue wrote:Don't quite know how much the Cuban people were kept in the dark over the last number of decades, but on the radio the other day there was this dude who left the island back in the early '80s and went on to become a successful restaurateur. Over the last few years anyone that made their way to these shores saw him and what he was amazed at was their complete lack of any kind of technology. I guess sheep are easier to herd when they just react to a bell.
Dan,I don't know if you saw awhile back the documentary of the great major league player Luis Tiant going back to Cuba.One of his reasons was to visit family members.He returned to his old neighborhood. It was run down to say the least. Inside the house, where he grew, up lived his grandmother,nieces,nephews,cousins,etc. Every room was a bedroom. Of course everybody was ecstatic to see him.Those people didn't have the money nor the freedom to leave Cuba to visit him.One time when Tiant pitched in the World Series,he asked the Cuban government if his father,Luis Tiant Sr.(who was a baseball legend in Cuba),could come to the States to watch his son perform. Castro,making a grandstand play, OK'd the deal out of the goodness of his heart.When the game was over it was back to Cuba to live in abject poverty.

After the hysteria wore off from Luis's visit to his relatives,after handing out his gifts:the chocolate bars,the chewing gum,the clothes,etc.,his family literally threw themselves on the ground asking him for money so they could buy things like enough food and commodities to make their lives better.It was gut wrenching to watch his grandmother crying and praying, and it must have been agonizing for Luis Tiant as well. His grandmother was sick,and although medical treatment was free,there weren't enough doctors left in Cuba and treatment was behind the times.

This Castro was the biggest fake around,and a brutal despot. If you were against him ,you'd wind up in prison if you were lucky. The way these dreamers would glorify Castro and Che Guevara made me sick. They saw them as the champions of the little people.Every one would be on an even playing field working together in harmonious solidarity. The problem with these myth believers is that they never went to places like Cuba or Russia to live. The reality check would have shattered their illusions.

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Jose Napoles.He got out of Cuba in time.However, "Mantequilla's" idol in Cuba, Ciro Morensen, couldn't get out in time. Later committed suicide.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Take a look at the posts on the Fidel Castro thread in the Off Topic section of BoxRec. I couldn't believe how delusional a number of the posters were about Castro and Cuba.

At least one poster even compared Cuba in a favorable manner to Argentina and Chile. It is true that Argentina and Chile were under murderous, oppressive governments forty or so years ago. Argentina also has had some tough economic times and a government which is a fiscal mess in recent decades. But compared to Cubans, the people of Argentina have far more personal freedom and a much better standard of living. Besides having a fairly stable democratic government, Chile is regarded as one of the most prosperous Latin American countries with Chileans having comparatively high incomes. Under Castro, Cubans have had a very low standard of living and the Cuban economy has been shambolic.

- Chuck Johnston
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Chuck1052 wrote:Take a look at the posts on the Fidel Castro thread in the Off Topic section of BoxRec. I couldn't believe how delusional a number of the posters were about Castro and Cuba.

At least one poster even compared Cuba in a favorable manner to Argentina and Chile. It is true that Argentina and Chile were under murderous, oppressive governments forty or so years ago. Argentina also has had some tough economic times and a government which is a fiscal mess in recent decades. But compared to Cubans, the people of Argentina have far more personal freedom and a much better standard of living. Besides having a fairly stable democratic government, Chile is regarded as one of the most prosperous Latin American countries with Chileans having comparatively high incomes. Under Castro, Cubans have had a very low standard of living and the Cuban economy has been shambolic.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck,this is what's happening more and more in our society. People have these misconceptions about reality and to be quite honest,it scares me.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Roger, a number of the posters on the mentioned Fidel Castro thread are British. Some of them think that Castro did a great thing when he stood up to the United States. I might add that I have read that while Fulgencio Batista was a brutal, corrupt dictator, Cuba was a relatively prosperous country by Latin American standards while he was in power. As a result, I was wondering how Cuba would have fared if someone rather than Castro became the leader of the country after Batista was overthrown.

- Chuck Johnston
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Chuck1052 wrote:Roger, a number of the posters on the mentioned Fidel Castro thread are British. Some of them think that Castro did a great thing when he stood up to the United States. I might add that I have read that while Fulgencio Batista was a brutal, corrupt dictator, Cuba was a relatively prosperous country by Latin American standards while he was in power. As a result, I was wondering how Cuba would have fared if someone rather than Castro became the leader of the country after Batista was overthrown.

- Chuck Johnston
Interesting that you said the many of the posts are by Brits. If any of British posters are out there and read this, please consider:Gandhi has been hailed as one the great 20th century rights advocates and a man working to give his people a change to be free from British rule. I concur. But Gandhi would have never had a platform and gained such a domestic and international following if England hadn't recognized his right to express himself openly.His freedom of expression was inherent with England's moral compass,an obligation to give a voice to the other side. It's sense of fair play.England had the decency to let him rally his countrymen to the cause, though there were many in England who winced(Winston Churchill for one). Thus Gandhi will go down through the ages as a great man of principle and a model for the rights of others. If he would have been a Cuban, alive during Castro's regime, speaking out for more freedoms,civil and human rights,,he would have been tortured,thrown in prison,and probably killed. His voice would have never been a whisper inside Cuba not to mention muted throughout the world. HAIL BRITTANIA!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagosd2000 wrote:
Chuck1052 wrote:Roger, a number of the posters on the mentioned Fidel Castro thread are British. Some of them think that Castro did a great thing when he stood up to the United States. I might add that I have read that while Fulgencio Batista was a brutal, corrupt dictator, Cuba was a relatively prosperous country by Latin American standards while he was in power. As a result, I was wondering how Cuba would have fared if someone rather than Castro became the leader of the country after Batista was overthrown.

- Chuck Johnston
Interesting that you said the many of the posts are by Brits. If any British posters are out there and read this, please consider:Gandhi has been hailed as one the great 20th century rights advocates and a man working to give his people a change to be free from British rule. I concur. But Gandhi would have never had a platform and gained such a domestic and international following if England hadn't recognized his right to express himself openly.His freedom of expression was inherent with England's moral compass,an obligation to give a voice to the other side. It's sense of fair play.England had the decency to let him rally his countrymen to the cause, though there were many in England who winced(Winston Churchill for one). Thus Gandhi will go down through the ages as a great man of principle and a model for the rights of others. If he would have been a Cuban, alive during Castro's regime, speaking out for more freedoms,civil and human rights,,he would have been tortured,thrown in prison,and probably killed. His voice would have never been a whisper inside Cuba not to mention muted throughout the world. HAIL BRITTANIA!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagosd2000 wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:
Chuck1052 wrote:Roger, a number of the posters on the mentioned Fidel Castro thread are British. Some of them think that Castro did a great thing when he stood up to the United States. I might add that I have read that while Fulgencio Batista was a brutal, corrupt dictator, Cuba was a relatively prosperous country by Latin American standards while he was in power. As a result, I was wondering how Cuba would have fared if someone rather than Castro became the leader of the country after Batista was overthrown.

- Chuck Johnston
Interesting that you said the many of the posts are by Brits. If any British posters are out there and read this, please consider:Gandhi has been hailed as one the great 20th century rights advocates and a man working to give his people a change to be free from British rule. I concur. But Gandhi would have never had a platform and gained such a domestic and international following if England hadn't recognized his right to express himself openly.His freedom of expression was inherent with England's moral compass,an obligation to give a voice to the other side. It's sense of fair play.England had the decency to let him rally his countrymen to the cause, though there were many in England who winced(Winston Churchill for one). Thus Gandhi will go down through the ages as a great man of accomplishment, principle, and a model for the rights of others. If he would have been a Cuban, alive during Castro's regime, speaking out for more freedoms,civil and human rights,he would have been tortured,thrown in prison,and probably killed. His voice would have never been a whisper inside Cuba not to mention muted throughout the world. HAIL BRITTANIA!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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[quote="dagosd2000"][quote="dagosd2000"][quote="dagosd2000"]

Interesting that you said that many of the posts are by Brits. If any British posters are out there read this, please consider:Gandhi has been hailed as one of the great 20th century rights advocates and a man working to give his people a change to be free from British rule. I concur. But Gandhi would have never had a platform and gained such a domestic and international following if England hadn't recognized his right to express himself openly.His freedom of expression was inherent with England's moral compass,an obligation to give a voice to the other side. It's sense of fair play.England had the decency to let him rally his countrymen to the cause, though there were many in England who winced(Winston Churchill for one). Thus Gandhi will go down through the ages as a great man of accomplishment, principle, and a model for the rights of others. If he would have been a Cuban, alive during Castro's regime, speaking out for more freedoms,civil and human rights,he would have been tortured,thrown in prison,and probably killed. His voice would have been a whisper inside Cuba not to mention muted throughout the world. HAIL BRITTANIA!

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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It's A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood

What I knew of Archie Moore was probably what just about everybody knew about him. He was always himself. No matter what rung you lived on in society it didn't matter to him. If you were yourself, you'd more than likely get to share what he was like. He finally settled in San Diego.He had fought all over. Finally,after connecting himself with the right people like a Doc Kearns,he easily outpointed Joey Maxim to win the light heavyweight title.He didn't jump and down in the ring after that fight.He didn't drop to his knees and pray or cry. He knew he was the best light heavyweight in the world. It was just that it was a long time comin' to him and now it was over.

Like I said, he finally put up stakes in Southeast San Diego. Southeast San Diego was the Black neighborhood then. You could still say that today,but mostly Mexicans reside there now. In fact there isn't a predominantly Black neighborhood in San Diego anymore. But if Archie Moore was still around,it wouldn't have made one bit of difference who was his neighbor. I hung out a lot in Southeast when I was younger. I played on that semi pro football team,the Ghetto Messengers.I was the "token" White guy(just joking). Henry Brown,who I played ball with at City College.called me up one today and asked me if I'd be interested in teaming up with the rest of the brothers. Sure,why not. Looking back on that, I don't think I ever laughed and had so much fun playing ball on that team. Practicing at the Ocean View Recreation Center, that was in the heart of the neighborhood,I'd see the ol' ex champ making the rounds.You see Archie didn't separate himself from his neighbors. He frequented the local businesses;bought his steaks, chops, and chicken at C & M Meats,got his hair cut at Gary's Barber Shop,and when he'd have a yen for barbeque,he,d be sitting down at Ray Huffman's joint.Huffman's was the "stick" in Logan Heights.

It was one day that I happened to bump into Archie Moore at Huffman's Barbeque. I told you the story. He was eating by himself. It was around that time I was helping him at his ABC(Any Boy Can) Club for boys. He was showing the kids how to box and also giving them a good dose of what it takes to be an individual of character. I think that was his real emphasis. Anyway, Archie caught me out of the corner of his eye and asked me if I wanted to destroy a plate of pork ribs with him. You think I'd say no to something like that? Well,Archie wanted to talk music. Jazz music. Archie would always pick the topics.I didn't care.He always had some very interesting takes on things. He was the most philosophical person I ever knew.He didn't give you all that erudite stuff and want to try to impress you with a load of facts. He didn't want to try to" one up" you.In fact he often asked you what your take was.

If Archie Moore could have had a second life,he would have wanted to be a jazz musician, At one time he sat in with the Lucky Thompson's group and was thinking of hanging up his gloves and going on the road with the merry music makers.But the lifestyle of a jazz musician and that of a fighter is about as much of an 180 as there is. So Archie would once in awhile "noodle" on his bass fiddle and take in the jam sessions when musicians like Jimmy Smith or the Modern Jazz Quartet came to town.

Archie Moore also dabbled with the Hollywood set. He's probably best remembered for playing the slave Jim in that movie Huckleberry Finn.Now I'm sure the militant Blacks like a Malcolm X might have thought of Archie Moore as an Uncle Tom,but he was nothing close to that perception. Although Archie Moore wasn't a Sidney Poitier on the movie screen,he was an individual who walked the way he wanted and didn't care about what others thought of his gait.He was as proud as one could be and I'm sure he was very comfortable when he looked at himself in the mirror.

Archie Moore was certain he also had the best recipe for cooking chicken on the planet. He gave a lot of thought about opening a restaurant in Southeast.On time at the MLK Festival at the park,Archie set up a stand grilling his birds and letting the locals get in on his dishes. Archie said it was "his" sauce that worked the magic.Of course he wouldn't share his sauce recipe with anyone.I helped myself plenty. No kidding,Archie Moore had the mojo for making chicken.

But the thing that everyone loved about him was that he saw a person one on one . I never heard him mention race as a determining factor. He never played the card that a lot of Blacks had up their sleeves. If there was anybody that could have sounded off, it was him. He was born in Mississippi,started out fighting in St. Louie,and was denied and ducked for decades by the White establishment boxing spin doctors.

I'll tell you this,he didn't like Muhammad Ali(when they fought he was Cassius Clay).Archie Moore didn't go for all that mouthy stuff. He didn't care if it was all an act.Archie Moore figured you didn't have to "act" to make a statement. I remember when Moore was in George Foreman's corner in Zaire. After the stunning upset,there was ol' Arch draping Foreman's robe over his big shoulders.

Archie ,more than any other African American, was cherished by the Mexican community.His politeness and respect won him over.When Olivares,who was at the top of his game,fought in the downtown bullring in Tijuana,it was Archie Moore who got the standing ovation when he was brought into the ring for the introduction. He was blowing kisses to the far reaches of the crowd. The aficianados loved him.There was a little bar off Revolution Street in TJ that was one of my watering holes. On the back wall hung four beautiful oil paintings of boxers. The old guy who owned the bar was a big fight fan.He had died and I ventured to get my hands on the artwork. I approached his wife but she wouldn't let them go.Sentimental reasons.I understood. But here is a list of those paintings:Kid Azteca,Raton Macias,Mantequillia Napoles,and yes,Archie Moore.Archie never fought in San Diego after beating Maxim,but he did dispose of Howard king in Tijuana in the late 50's.

Archie Moore stayed pretty much at home in San Diego.I remember he raised money for the legal defense of a local Latino fighter who got in trouble on a manslaughter beef. he visited the kids' wards at the hospitals.His son played football at the community college. You'd see Arch there sitting in the bleachers quietly supporting his son. He went through a string of wives and had a lot of kids.I'm sure he loved his wives,but having a bit of the rascal in him,quashed those relationships.None of his boys became fighters.He never pushed them in that direction.

With all that said,Archie Moore was certainly bigger than life in a world that he honed down to : the neighborhood he lived in. When he won the title,he had a big brick house built in Southeast San Diego. He put a swimming pool in the shape of a boxing glove in the back yard.Today,that house is a rendezvous for swingers. The neighborhood isn't what it once was for sure.The gangs and the drugs have drug things down. One day I wanted to visit the old house. Archie would put on block parties on that street.All the locals would attend;and yes there'd be plenty of his chicken to go around.It ain't like that no more.You can see the old place clearly from the freeway,but once you drive off the ramp, it's a little hard to find.As I was searching ,I finally had to ask for directions. I saw this cat all decked out in "blue" from head to toe with a "do rag" around his head.He was with this woman and he was pushing a baby stroller with a baby in it.
"Excuse me,can you tell me where Archie Moore's old house is?" I asked humbly.
"What the f--k you talking about?" he shouted back.
"You know.Archie Moore.The old fighter,"again wanting to be gracious.
The gangbanger gathered himself.He stopped to think a bit.His shoulders relaxed.
"Oh yeah.Go to the next corner and turn right.It's at the end."
The Crip had settled down. Maybe it was my query about Archie Moore. Maybe he knew something about the Mongoose. Perhaps some of the old timers had told him some of the stories. Anyway, he wasn't so angry.Archie Moore had that effect on people.

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Archie Moore
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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This Old House




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Took these pictures several years ago of Archie Moore's old place.Funny,but when I mention his old house to the younger set they don't make the connection till I mention "Thads". That's the in spot for the local orgies. Then they light up a smile and get it. I remember inside Archie's boys club where he schooled them in pugilism,but just as importantly, with a decent way to behave.There were signs that he put up on the wall for using cuss words. Fines were levied if Archie heard you using a dirty word. I believe if you said the "F" word the fine was a dollar. That was throwing the book at you. Once in awhile Archie would slip up and have to ante some change also. No one had to call their attention to it. If he "sinned",he would laugh and say the devil made him do it.

Just one more thing I remember about the man. Nothing was to be taken that seriously. A friend of mine that owned a bar in National City told me the story about how Archie came to visit the kids in the TB ward at the downtown hospital. This guy was one of the kids in the ward.Well, it was just before Moore's fight with Marciano. Archie promised the kids he'd bring home the bacon,and the crown.The kids were permitted to stay up that night and listen to the fight on the radio. Well,you know what happened. My friend said all the kids were cryin' and felt real bad.They were sure their hero would beat the champ. The nest day who do you think shows up at the hospital? With a face that looks like someone who got in a hatchet fight and forgot his hatchet is the ol' Mongoose with cake and ice cream for all the kids. He sees the kids are down,but that just challenges him.
"C'mon,"he said."You kids are gonna' lick this thing and you'll be getting out of here soon. After Marciano had me down for the final count I didn't know if I'd ever get out of there alive. We'll all make it because we have each other pulling together."

Dick Saddler worked with Archie at the end of his career. There probably was never a happier training camp with Saddler running things.Dick,I know, played the piano.Archie on the bass fiddle?I wish I could have been there. :clap:


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This is how ol' Arch looked to the kids at the TB ward the day after the Rocky fight.Isn't he beautiful? :salut:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Rog, some of the stories here on ol arch had me thinking. I recall Archie used to actually write a boxing column for a Jamaican newspaper. He would regale them with insight on the boxing world. Arch must have had some connection there in the Carribean because he was also managing a jr welterweight named Johnny DePeiza. Arch was a task master who did not baby fighters. He said once you've gotten to contender status you have to fight the best from there on. Can you imagine fighters today thinking that way? Today you break into the top 10 then fight pure crap to protect your forthcoming title shot. And everyone today gets a title shot. Clubfighters, prospects, journeymen, etc. Anyways Moore brought his fighter down to Juarez to fight this kid everyone was talking about. Unfortunately, this kid was named 'Mantequilla' Napoles and DePeiza was knocked kicking in the first round. Moore was so impressed he said any punch that Napoles kid throws could take you out. High praise from someone who knew the trade.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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scartissue wrote:Rog, some of the stories here on ol arch had me thinking. I recall Archie used to actually write a boxing column for a Jamaican newspaper. He would regale them with insight on the boxing world. Arch must have had some connection there in the Carribean because he was also managing a jr welterweight named Johnny DePeiza. Arch was a task master who did not baby fighters. He said once you've gotten to contender status you have to fight the best from there on. Can you imagine fighters today thinking that way? Today you break into the top 10 then fight pure crap to protect your forthcoming title shot. And everyone today gets a title shot. Clubfighters, prospects, journeymen, etc. Anyways Moore brought his fighter down to Juarez to fight this kid everyone was talking about. Unfortunately, this kid was named 'Mantequilla' Napoles and DePeiza was knocked kicking in the first round. Moore was so impressed he said any punch that Napoles kid throws could take you out. High praise from someone who knew the trade.
Dan,Very interesting anecdote about DePeiza.I think the most difficult relationship in sports is the connection between a fighter and his trainer. When I helped out at Moore's ABC Club,most of the kids there were just that,kids.I don't think Moore was looking to find any diamonds in the rough.I think his club was subsidized by the city of San Diego. He said he was earning 30 grand a year salary.Yes,he was a task master.Though he was very congenial,he did have the last word. Of course, if you're training a fighter,the fighter has to obey your instructions,and have a trust.But the trust has to be earned and then it becomes established. Certainly Archie Moore knew his trade,but I think he was inflexible when it came assessing that perhaps his protegy might not have the mental make up nor the physical attributes to fit Archie's conception of what a fighter should be. The first thing that comes to mind is the young Cassius Clay. His backers thought that Moore would be the perfect fit for the Olympic Gold Medalist. Moore was still fighting at the time.

Moore had a training facility in the foothills of San Diego outside a small town named Ramona. It was in the middle of nowhere.(The camp is not there anymore,but the road that led to it is.It's named Archie Moore Road)A crude structure that he Moore believed would be conducive to what a fighter needed,a Spartan life.Well,we know what happened.Moore not only wanted Clay to fight the way he did with his arms crossed and flat footed,and boxing by the book(no pulling your head back to avoid punches).And then to add "insult to injury", after and before workouts,Cassius would have to wash dishes and sweep floors. Moore wouldn't budge. The relationship was short lived.

Moore was a guy who liked to preach.With Clay that didn't work. Moore wanted to dominate,take up too much of the limelight,impose his standards. Clay ,like his idol,Sugar Ray Robinson,wanted to be the center of attention,have that entourage of acolytes.You were OK with Cassius if you knew your place,and that spot was not sharing the top rung of the ladder with him. Archie Moore didn't sweep floors or wash dishes at his training camp.He should have figured out real early that Clay had never worked at Denny's.

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Cassius Clay and Archie Moore.Boxing's short lived odd couple.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Pearl Harbor Day

Took this picture off the wall as I was typing on the forum.Laid it down,snapped a shot, and thought I'd pass it on. !961,my Colt League All Star Team.I'm the dude with the specs 2nd row, third from the left. Boy did we think we were hot s--t. We sure had a load of fun. BTW. The three gentlemen who were our coaches and had sons on the team.

The dad top row far left: Captain Herb Palmtag,U.S. Army Air Corps. Flew B-24's over the Ploesti oil fields.

Dad top row far right:Commander Jack Keilch United States Navy. At the Battle of the Coral Sea aboard the cruiser Astoria.

My dad bottom row far right: Cpl. Joe Esty (Esposito) U.S. Marines Ist Division, 5 Corps. Engaged Japanese at the Battles of Pelileu and Okinawa.

They wanted us kids to feel like heroes.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Larry And Muhammad

"Muhammad and Larry"is the name of the documentary.It's part of the 30 for 30 series shown on ESPN. The film showcases the fight between Larry Holmes and Muhammad Ali.Most of the footage are flashbacks prior to the fight.One of the most hyped upped fights of the century .This one sided match was one of the biggest letdowns in boxing annals.During the film there are current interviews with many of the players who were in both fighters' camps. In the Ali circle ,only Ferdie Pacheco divorced himself from the Holme's affair.

I remember when Ali came back after his forced retirement.One of the big issues was his weight.He could never tip the beam of his Float Like A Butterfly Sonny Liston Days of around 210 pounds. Many said that the added pounds were the reason it was now the time of The Rope A Dope. When I saw him train in San Diego for Kenny Norton,Ali certainly thought he could wup ass on Norton regardless of what the results of the weigh in were.Ali lost.He looked sluggish.I never saw the flight of the butterfly lift off the ground.

But it was all very similar after his three and a half lay year exile from the ring.His first fight back,it was hard to tell. Quarry stated his bleeding schtick and the fight was stopped early.Next was the ponderous Bonavena.I really don't think the Ali camp,or anyone else, thought that Ringo would would respresent anything more than just a good workout.But what we saw that night was what Muhammad Ali had morphed into and would remain more or less that way depending upon how much effort he put into his training,a a heavier,slower,and more pathetically, a fighter who became an easy to hit.But watching the Bonavena fight,I heard Cosell say that Ali must be "physically sick."He wasn't then,but in time, after getting worked over by his opponents and letting his sparring partners bang him around,eventually Ali's organs began to turn into jelly.His outer torso was Smucker's like. The skin was soft.His chest was puffy.After awhile, his speech became slurry. He was on a path to oblivion.

But after Ali's return in 1970,he was a living legend. He began as a villain in the early 60's,except with some of the younger generation.His boasting was unfamiliar with the fans of sportsmanship.It was all an act,but actors belonged in the movies,not inside a boxing ring.When he fought Sonny Liston,a somber morose hulk,Cassius was still seen by the majority as someone who needed The Bear to plant his big fists into Clay's mouth to shut him up.The huge upset won Cassius some votes,but in the rematch many of the boxing public thought the first time was a fluke(a dislocated shoulder on Sonny's part)and now Liston would even the score with the converted Muslim,Muhammad Ali.

After the second Liston fight the only opposition that could lay a glove on Ali was the Selective Service.It(and the commissions)put Ali's fighting career on the back burner for the three and a half years. But we were in an unpopular war. It riveted the country. Ali was becoming a hero and a prophet. He also represented big bucks for the boxing promoters.It was going to happen sooner or later.He'd fight again. Ali was still recognized by Ring Magazine(at that time Boxing's authoritative journal)as the heavyweight champion.

However, there was a young heavyweight on the horizon ,and like Cassius Clay,an Olympic champ;a guy who came out "smokin' and was undefeated. They called it the" Fight of The Century."They had to put it in the greatest boxing venue in the world:Madison Square Garden. But I never thought the fight lived up to its expectations. It was Muhammad's fault.He didn't have the cat like moves anymore. He was getting tagged on the ropes. We should have seen the forecast in the Bonavena fight.

Ali's career trudged along for another eleven years with a two year "retirement"beginning in 1978.When I say "trudged along", his fights against Frazier,Foreman,and Norton are considered monumental.But they were contests that defined,for a great part,their careers,but they hadn't fought a "peak" Ali.If Ali hadn't have been around their legacies would have been short a few paragraphs.

Include Young,Wepner,Evangelista,Lyle,Coopman,Dunn,and Spinks and they can say they fought "The Greatest" even though Ali had left that might in the ring when those fellows were watching him do his magic on Wide World of Sports.There were some close calls. Kenny Norton would give you an earful on that topic. What if Carlos Padilla would have started taking points away for Ali's grabbing behind the head in Manila? But even though Ali was getting torn up on the outside and the inside,like Ferdie Pacheco said,"He always found a way to win in the end."

But now we're back to the documentary "Muhammad and Larry."They put Ali's name first even though ,if they had let the fight continue,Ali would have been lying in the morgue instead of the hospital.That probably would have given the producers greater reasoning to give Ali top billing. But here's another example of a fighter,even as great as Larry Holmes,getting put on the pay no mind list.Holmes was the champ,but he'd never been on the Johnny Carson Show.He wasn't the showman like Ali,but ever was. Neither was Joe Frazier,Sonny Liston,and Kenny Norton.Mike Tyson got the attention,but he was scary. You had to hide him from the women and little kids.It wasn't until George Foreman did some soul searching after his loss in Zaire,that he became a personable sort.The way they edited the documentary, if Larry hadn't had fought Ali, the producers wouldn't have considered making the film.

Muhammad Ali got down to that mid 1960's fighting trim for the Holmes fight. He had taken the weight off. Now the butterfly would emerge from the cocoon. But Ali stumbled upon a quack doctor that told him he could lose the pounds by taking thyroid pills. Instead of taking "one" Ali would ingest the drugs like M&M's. The pounds tumbled away along with Ali's chances.The Nevada Commission wanting to play it safe,asked the Mayo Clinic to give Ali a pre fight exam. He had trouble touching his nose with his finger. But that was OK with the commission.Besides the biggest "handle" was awaiting the betting world in the state of Nevada. Angelo Dundee was fooling himself.Bundini Brown thought Ali was a prophet. The Ali faithful still believed. But when Muhammad's business manager,Gene Kilroy,told Muhammad he wanted to place a 40 grand wager on him,The Greatest replied that that "greatness" had dwindled to mediocrity. Couldn't they see the hunched shoulders,the lethargy of speech and movement. The flesh fluttering under Wali Muhammad's rubdowns.Ali was sporting a mustache! He wasn't even a shadow of himself.

If it hadn't been for Herbert Muhammad ordering Angelo Dundee to keep Ali on his stool,Muhammad Ali might have died that night. But that documentary carried the loss off as putting Ali in the echelons of martyrdom. Larry Holmes did a "bad thing".Many fans,including Blacks,chastied Larry for pounding the man that" gave" them their dignity.Then, after seeing a blubbery Ali shoved out there against Trevor Berbick,the cult disbanded for good.

So Larry if you're out there,I proudly put your name first, ahead of Ali's, when writing this piece.Now if I had a late night TV show,you'd be my first guest.


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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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An obituary of Howard Bingham, longtime of friend of Muhammad Ali and a well-known photographer, appeared in the December 17, 2016 edition of the Los Angeles Times. Bingham, 77 years of age, died in a Los Angeles hospital on Thursday afternoon.

- Chuck Johnston
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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The Sword Is Mightier Than The Pen

"So you'll keep me appraised?"asked Burke.
"You mean apprised,"I said.
"Isn't that what I said?" he came back with.
"You said 'appraised', like trying to put a value on something. 'Apprised' means to let you know what's going on."
This conversation was back when I was wanting to get Burke Emery inducted into the California Boxing Hall of Fame. I was going over with Burke about it in his bar,Champs.Burke was there with his girlfriend Shirley and partner in the place.I was nursing a beer at the bar while Shirley was counting last night's receipts.
"You are good with words.You must like to read,"said the ex fighter."I never went to college."
I had finally convinced Burke that he was a worthy inductee. He didn't fight much on the coast,only at the end of his career when his days as a legitimate contender were over. But he settled in San Diego and went on to handle much of the local talent. The weekly cards at the Coliseum always featured a few of his fighters.

Burke at that time was starting to slip more into the dementia. Shirley knew it.She was influential in convincing Burke to accept his award.At first he didn't want to go to Los Angeles. Burke was forgetting a lot lately. Not only could you see the all scar tissue over his eyes(his cuts frequently opened up when he fought and cost him in the ring),but now the brain damage was becoming evident.He couldn't remember what you had just said to him, and if you called him out about it,he'd just say it wasn't worth remembering anyway.
"You still write on the computer?",he asked me.
"From time to time."
"I don't have a computer so I wouldn't know."
"You're not missing anything,"I said.
" I never knew any reporters except you,"said Burke.
"i'm not a reporter,"I said."I just like to put my thoughts down once in awhile."
"When I fought I never saw many reporters,"remarked Burke."When I handled fighters later on, they came around. I never did trust them.
I always thought they were looking for something that wasn't there,and if they couldn't find it,they'd make something up."
"You don't see many sportswriters hanging with the athletes."
"That's why. They remind me of lawyers,"said Burke.
Shirley finished counting the receipts and then came over to Burke who was standing behind the bar.
"Roger,let me give you a down payment for the tables that I want to reserve,"she said holding a fifty dollar bill in her hand.
"No need to do that now.Rick Farris will get back with me and then you can set things up with him after he gets the go ahead from Don Fraser."
Shirley walked to the other side of the bar where I was seated and pulled me aside.
"You don't know how much this means to Burke,"she said softly."If you only knew what his past was like. I understand why he turned to fighting."
"They say that boxing is a 'poor man's out',but too often it doesn't get him out of the situation he's in,and then later if he gets sick..."
"That's why it's important that he gets in."
"He'll get in,"I said."He's certainly qualified and besides, if you can get enough tables reserved,Don Fraser will rubber stamp it."
Shirley went back behind the bar and stood next to Burke. She had some years on Burke.I think she was a model once. She had kept her shape. Her platinum blond hair was pulled back.You could tell she had much beauty when she was younger. Shirley was always very nice to everyone.She kept things together. Burke had met her in the bar before it was Champs. Burke was a bartender back then. When the owner wanted to sell out,Burke and Shirley went in as partners.
"Can you write something up for Rick Farris?"I asked Shirley."He'll need some biographical information."
"Oh,Shirley is a good writer,"interjected Burke with a big smile."I never could put two words together on paper.I don't like talking much either.Mostly when I'm asked something."
"That's not a bad trait," I said.
"I don't offer many opinions either.They're like a-- holes.Everybody's got one,"he said laughing.

I finished up my business with Burke and Shirley. I knew Rick would get back with me and then I'd hand everything off to Shirley. I heard that Don Fraser and Burke used to like to go out on the town from time to time. That had to count for something as long Shirley could sell enough tickets for the induction ceremony.She wouldn't have any problem. Burke had a lot of friends in his corner. As I waked to my car,I began to think about what Burke had said about reporters.There certainly was something to be said for that. I almost turned around and went back inside the bar. I wanted to tell him something thought I'd thought up awhile back."The apocalypse started with the first spoken word." But I caught myself. If I said that, it would only validate Burke's take on writers. Besides, he'd probably ask me what "apocalypse" meant.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Stanley Ketchel
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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A Cup Of Coffee

I drove over to my daughter's house to get a cup of coffee.In the late afternoon I need a jolt. Now I know that while I'm having a cup of coffee,and then chasing it down with usually another,whoever is sitting across from me is going to have to listen to me as a loosen up. Today it was my granddaughter ,Amanda's turn in the barrel.She was in the process of typing a term paper on the dining room table for her literature class.So as I felt the juices flowing,i start into my stream of consciences spiel. I began with the first thing that popped into my head.

"I see you have an anthology of short stories. I wonder how these guys that put these kind of books together decide what stories to pick. When I was an English major,I studied a lot of this.I see they left out Hemingway. It really doesn't require much effort in selecting a story someone else wrote and then compiling it with a bunch of other stories and making a book. I see there's a short bio of the authors in the back.i guess you can look that stuff up in no time.When it's all put together they feel like they're a group of academics.I think fiction is dead anyway. Before, when you wanted to read about the 'real' world you'd read Tennessee Williams or Norman Mailer. Today it's kind of passe. 'Death Of A Salesman' doesn't have the impact it once had,at least on me. Today, you can go to the internet a see all the horror and reality you want.It's not made up anymore. But then again short stories like the ones in this book will be studied in literature classes long after I'm gone.If I were you Amanda,I'd go study next semester in one of those cities you haven't been to.I know you love Florence,but you've never been to Barcelona or Beijing.If I had to do it all over again I wouldn't have concentrated on sports so much. I was what you call an over achiever. My eyes were bad for baseball and I knew I could never play pro football,but I was pretty good in my day.But back then if you were a good athlete you became instantly popular.It didn't matter how rich your family was or where you bought your clothes. Jocks were popular. Everyone went to the games. If I were to do it all over again ,I'd focus more on writing and music.Me and Tita went to Tijuana yesterday.When we left I could see all the kids and the dogs taking a nap in the big bed.Even Ernesto,Rosa's husband,was sleeping with them. That's a Latin thing. The other night when we went downtown to see the Nutcracker at the Civic Center,i was thinking about what downtown San Diego was like when I was a kid. I know that you can't relate to it,but take it from me,the San Diego had a lot more character. There was the old Pacific League ballpark at the foot of Broadway,Lane Field. It was an old rickety wooden structure,but there sure was a lot of history connected with it.Archie Moore,one of the greatest fighters of his age, fought there.Of course that was before my time. One night Archie was to fight 'Shorty' Hogue's brother,'Big Boy',but for some reason 'Big Boy' couldn't make it into the ring. 'Shorty' was sitting at ringside and enthusiastically jumped through the ropes to take his brother's place. He lost, but he had beaten Archie before,and besides,'Shorty' didn't like him.Then the old minor league Padres played there. You know Harry 'Suitcase' Simpson holds the record for hitting the longest homerun ever.I saw it. He hit one over the fence in left field. The ball bounced onto one of the freight cars on the tracks behind the ball park.The train took off and stopped all the way up to Union Station in Los Angeles. I remember Carl's Baseball Inn over on 16th Street. It was a couple of blocks from the old Coliseum.Carl's Baseball In was like walking into a baseball museum. On the walls were pennants and photographs of the old Pacific League stars. You see there was no major league clubs on the west coast yet.The old timers would talk about those guys on the wall. They were big name players in the Coast League.There was Lefty O'Doul,Max West,Rudy Regalado. Rudy Regalado was very popular. He was one of the first Mexican players to have success.There was Steve Bilko who played for the Hollywood Stars. He hit over 60 homeruns one year.He was so popular that when Nat Hiken,the creator of the Phil Silvers Show,had to give Silver's character a name,he chose the name 'Bilko'.But most of those players couldn't hit a big league curve ball and struggled when they were brought up. Two guys in the Coast League who made it big were Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio. That was in the 30's before my time,Williams played for the Padres and DiMaggio for the San Francisco Seals.Like I said the old Coliseum was down the street. There was a weekly card and I saw a lot of good fights and good fighters. Kenny Norton started off there. Archie Moore fought there early in his career,but that was before my time. I used to work out with some of the fighter there when Burke Emery had his boys training . I remember the old locker room with the leaky shower heads and the mold on the stucco.The place stunk real bad too. I remember when the wrestlers would come in after the fighters left,they'd empty a bottle of after shave lotion on the floor to get the smell out.Before we took California from Mexico after the Mexican American War there were Mexicans that lived in California and after the war they stayed. They were called Californios. in Texas,the Mexicans there were called Tejanos. There were more Tejanos than Californios.But the Californios were allowed to keep their private property after California became a part of the United States.Some of those Mexican families went back to the days of Conquistadores.They prided themselves in not having any Indian blood. They were very proud and were very wealthy.Remember when I took you and your brother on the train when we went to Union Station in Los Angeles?Remember when we walked aross the street to Olvera Street?It was kind of a tourist trap,but they left a lot of the old buildings like they were.I liked going inside the old stores as they left them like they were with all the artifacts.Boyle Heights is close by. It's an old Mexican neighborhood with a lot of history.In 1943,I think it was,there were fights in the downtown area between the Mexican kids and the sailors and Marines. The servicemen stationed at Camp Pendleton and Long Beach would go downtown to let off steam. Well,it was the old story. The servicemen tried to move in on Mexican guys' women. All hell broke loose. They called it the Zoot Suit Riots. You know not one serviceman went to jail,but the cops sure kicked the crap out of those Mexican kids.The cops in LA were big racists for quite a long time. They had moved out west from the south and states like Oklahoma. Some of those cops wee in the Klan.But it would have looked bad to them to throw those servicemen in jail.Hell,they were fighting the War. Those Mexican kids who got caught up with that weren't participating,at least those Mexican kids didn't. Hell,even the Mexican girls were fighting and got arrested.. Some of the Hollywood movie stars that were Latinos put up a defense fund for those Mexican kids so they'd get a proper defense. Anthony Quinn and Rita Hayworth helped those kids out.There was an actor in Hollywood called Leo Carrillo.His family owned practically all of San Diego.He played those parts in the movies like a cowboy,'vaqueros' is what they call them in Mexico.He was in that movie 'Viva Villa' with Wallace Beery. I still think that is the most accurate depiction of Pancho Villa. Not so much historically correct,but Wallace Beery captured the variances of Villa's personality.Mexican movies make Pancho Villa into too much of a cruel person. He had that side for sure,but he had a funny side also.Carrillo usually played that kind of role.Carrillo was also in the first television series that was in color,'The Cisco Kid.'Carrillo played the Cisco Kid's sidekick,Pancho.Duncan Renaldo was Cisco,but I don't think he was Mexican.His lineage was Eastern European ,but I might be wrong about that.At the end of each episode they'd be on their horses and Cisco would turn to Pancho and say'Oh Pancho'and then Pancho would say 'Oh Cisco'.It was kind of funny.You'd have to see it to know what I mean.Another thing. Cisco and Pancho were the good guys.The white guys were the bad guys.Cisco and Pancho always won all the fights with the white guys.Cisco and Pancho also would outsmart the white dudes.Well I've finished my coffee.I think I'll be going."
"You sure you don't want another cup?"asked Amanda.
"No.If I did you'd never finish your paper."

'


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Ted Williams
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagos,just a short note to pick your brain a little, talking to a friend of mine recently, about jack o; Halloran, and he mentioned that in 2011 jack wrote a book entitled "family legacy" o'holloran says he's the son of albert Anastasia. well, this blew me away. as I belong to a site that we discuss O.C. and the mob, and some posters are very knowledgable..... thought I might ask you if you have any knowledge of his claim. I can't find anyone who believes this is true.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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L.A. kidd wrote:dagos,just a short note to pick your brain a little, talking to a friend of mine recently, about jack o; Halloran, and he mentioned that in 2011 jack wrote a book entitled "family legacy" o'holloran says he's the son of albert Anastasia. well, this blew me away. as I belong to a site that we discuss O.C. and the mob, and some posters are very knowledgable..... thought I might ask you if you have any knowledge of his claim. I can't find anyone who believes this is true.

Kidd,never heard that one before.I know at one time Big Jack was kidnapped and supposedly held for ransom.That was after that first Superman movie. When I heard he was yanked off the street,the first thing that popped into my mind was "Where do you hide him?" :oops:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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yeah, dagos, if you google jack O'Halloran, it will tell you of his claim, and his book. I can't believe that one !
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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d]
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagosd2000 wrote:
L.A. kidd wrote:yeah, dagos, if you google jack O'Halloran, it will tell you of his claim, and his book. I can't believe that one !

Kidd,often people want to rub shoulders with nefarious types of characters. They think that some of that wickedness will rub off on them.It might make them feel tougher or braver. It's like the dudes that walk around with these big ol' pit bulls.They're saying "I'm as mean as this dog." In the case of Jack O'Halloran though, he sounds like he's boasting about the chance that Albert Anastasia was his father.Big deal. If he's not positive, why in the hell would he want to announce that to the world? Obviously,if Anastasia was his father,he never married his mother or stuck around,let alone take care of him. As far as I'm concerned, if I was Jack O'Halloran, and I heard that rumor,I'd deny it emphatically and wouldn't want to tell anybody. :doh:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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A Diamond As Big As The Sun

Getting back to L.A. Kidd's post about Jack O'Halloran saying that Albert Anastasia might be his father. When I hear stuff like this,I think of my father.When his dad,Diamond Joe Esposito,was murdered near his house coming back from a hod carriers union meeting, my father his mother ,sister,and little brother were turned on their heads.My grandmother went to Capone and asked why that happened. Capone said it was an accident,and then he took all my grandfather's diamond rings and other diamond jewelry. My grandfather wore a diamond ring he called "the Sun".He also wore a diamond studded money belt and a diamond stick pin.Together that "ice" was worth more than 200 g's. Capone got it all.My grandmother wasn't much of a mother. She was only 16 when my grandfather pushed himself on her and her family. He was 44. I would say that my grandfather did more good for the Italian community(the 19th Ward) than bad. He was a bootlegger,but he wasn't a murderer and didn't order hits on anyone.Like I said,he was the alderman of the 19th Ward and was the Godfather of Little Italy in Chicago. But after he died,my father wanted to walk in his shoes. Since my grandfather mentored all the future Dons of the Chicago Outfit like Paul "The Waiter" Ricca,Sam Giancana,and Tony Accardo,my father was well connected later on. But my father never reached the heights,so to speak,of his dad,Diamond Joe.Capone took my father in to live with him,his wife ,mother, and his son,Sonny.Capone said my dad was a bad influence on his boy. After that, my dad went to live with his Uncle Chas who was a policy guy in the Bronx. Oh,he got himself in the rackets when he got older.Then he joined the Marines during WWII. He was thinking of staying in,but my mother talked him out of it("I don't want any babies born in China").Well, my father fell back into the Outfit.In the 50's he got himself in trouble with the government. The mob guys got him off,but his name was spread all over the papers.So my mother put her foot down and we moved to California. The problem was that my father couldn't let go of that Outfit kind of lifestyle.He was always calling Chicago.In the meantime he wasn't looking to work for anyone unless his name was Ricca or Giancana.The mob guys threw him a few crumbs out here,but it didn't amount to much. My mother was disgusted with the whole thing. Towards the end of his life,when my father was taking stock of everything,he lamented for his days in the Corps. He was very proud of how he served. Funny,he always would tell stories about the Outfit,but hardly ever mentioned what he did at Okinawa and Pelileu.I think he wanted to keep that part of his life clean and and sacred. Only if he met another Marine who were at those battle sites, would he open up.

Looking back now,I don't think I would have had any problem being born in China.

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CPL. Joe Esposito. United States Marine Corps,1st Division,5 Corps,Company B
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by L.A. kidd »

yeah, dagos it shocked me that jack O'Halloran would say that. I'm not making this up, but, I can't understand the reasoning of his claim.
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