Big heavyweights vs Smaller great heavyweights.

[Ambling Alp II]

This thread is about big heavyweights vs smaller great heavyweights.
It isn't meant to be about theories. Its about what has actually happned in real life.

If you or anyone else can name more examples of a big heavyweight beating a smaller great heavyweight, please name them. Or vice versa. Big heavyweights have to be 240 or above and smaller heavyweight has to have been a great and 220 or below. Losing fighter has to be close to his prime to be fair.

So far the big heavyweights are 2-12.

[Ambling Alp II]

If anyone isn't clear what counts, just ask. Thought this would be fun.

[Kalan]

How much did Mavrovic weigh against lewis? wasn't he like 190lb or something or have I got that wrong? Lewis was surely like 240+?

I know lewis won but lewis was a huge puncher and mavrovic took the best he had. Does this surely go some way to proving that at heavy - its not so much the size but the fighters? Just a thought.

Mavrovic weighed 214 but was built very powerful and solid... He had a great chin, but didn't have a prayer of winning the decision to the 243 pound Lewis... Liston weighed 214 for the 189-pound Patterson... That's only 25-pounds, but his arms and shoulders were twice as big---so he made Patterson look like a frightened little mouse as he dispatched him in 2 minutes... Liston's hands were so big he needed custom make gloves.

George Foreman only weighed 217 for his first fight with Frazier who was 214... That was extremely deceptive as Foreman was in the best shape of his living life.. George was ripped to the gills -- and Frazier was pudgy as Hell.. If Frazier were as ripped as Foreman he would have gone 190 -- and that's about the size Joe looked as Foreman tore into him with his massive advantage of size, strength, and firepower.. Frazier should have stood in bed.

So it's not just size... if you're a rock-solid 225 who walks around at 250 -- you're going to look more impressive at the ripped weight than your regular weight... And obviously you're going to be faster and sharper with hair-trigger reflexes if you're trained to the minute and at the lighter weight.

[Ambling Alp II]

I am adding the following: Bob Fitzimmons beating Ed Dunkorst, Tommy Loughran def Ray Impettetiere, and Sharkey beating Carnera in their first fight.

-Remember fights in which the loser was clearly not in his prime don't count. So for example Holyfield over Foreman doesn't count. Smaller guy has to be under 220 and bigger guy has to be at least 240. Smaller guy has to be great.

So here is what we have so far:
Smaller guy winning:
Fitzsimmons (170) over Dunkhorst (260)
Dempsey 187 over Willard (245)
Loughran (188) over Impelletiere (254)
Sharkey (202) over Carnera (261)
Louis (196) over Carnera (260)
Louis (207.5) over Simon (255)
Louis (206.5) over Buddy Baer (250)
Frazier (204.5) over Mathis (243)
Holyfield (208) over Douglas (246)
Holyfield (217) over Bowe (246)

Bigger guy winning against a great:
Carnera (260.5) over Sharkey (201)
Carnera (270) over Loughran (186)

So far, the smaller ATG leads 10-2 against the big heavyweights.

Here are two more:
Max Baer (209.5) over Primo Carnera (263)
Max Baer (204) over Jose Santa (244)

The smaller ATGs now lead 12-2 over the big heavyweights.

And two more:
Holmes (211) over Leroy Jones (254.5)
Holyfield (219) over Lou Savarese (242)

The smaller ATGs now lead 14-2 against the big heavyweights.

[Syntax Error]

I am adding the following: Bob Fitzimmons beating Ed Dunkorst, Tommy Loughran def Ray Impettetiere, and Sharkey beating Carnera in their first fight.

-Remember fights in which the loser was clearly not in his prime don't count. So for example Holyfield over Foreman doesn't count. Smaller guy has to be under 220 and bigger guy has to be at least 240. Smaller guy has to be great.

So here is what we have so far:
Smaller guy winning:
Fitzsimmons (170) over Dunkhorst (260)
Dempsey 187 over Willard (245)
Loughran (188) over Impelletiere (254)
Sharkey (202) over Carnera (261)
Louis (196) over Carnera (260)
Louis (207.5) over Simon (255)
Louis (206.5) over Buddy Baer (250)
Frazier (204.5) over Mathis (243)
Holyfield (208) over Douglas (246)
Holyfield (217) over Bowe (246)

Bigger guy winning against a great:
Carnera (260.5) over Sharkey (201)
Carnera (270) over Loughran (186)

So far, the smaller ATG leads 10-2 against the big heavyweights.

Here are two more:
Max Baer (209.5) over Primo Carnera (263)
Max Baer (204) over Jose Santa (244)

The smaller ATGs now lead 12-2 over the big heavyweights.

And two more:
Holmes (211) over Leroy Jones (254.5)
Holyfield (219) over Lou Savarese (242)

The smaller ATGs now lead 14-2 against the big heavyweights.

It's hard to believe that Larry Holmes only weighed around 211 in his pomp.

He seems to be a much larger guy.

[Boxing Writer]

214 lbs Zeljko Mavrovic and 215 lbs Evander Holyfield took Lennox Lewis punches 1000 times better than 250 lbs Michael Grant or 244 lbs Andrew Golota.

[BoxBuzz]

Should there just be another couple of weight classes on the upper end?

Super HW

Uber HW

and maybe DoubleCheeseGoliath weight for the couch potato fighters.

Why does the weight limit thing just end with Heavies?

Is it still 200? Shows you what I've kept up with. I think 200 is Cruiser now right?

[Ambling Alp II]

The results are showing that it is not necessary. The big size advantage theory is way overblown. The people that love to point to the big heavyweights being superior can only make lame excuses. Notice they can't come up with actual real results where the big heavyweight beat a smaller great heavyweight. 14-2.

[Kalan]

214 lbs Zeljko Mavrovic and 215 lbs Evander Holyfield took Lennox Lewis punches 1000 times better than 250 lbs Michael Grant or 244 lbs Andrew Golota.

Just because a guy is 215 doesn't mean he can't have a great chin, and very good skills... And just because somebody goes 244 doesn't mean he can't be extremely slow, extremely inept, China chinned, a terrible boxer, and have all the cleverness of Dan Quayle.

And 214-pound fatty Joe Frazier had a great chin...but that didn't matter when rock-solid, 217-pound, much better trained and prepared George Foreman started smashing his brains in...getting him out of there in less than 2 rounds.. At times you need a few defensive skills to go along with that great chin.. Jack Sharkey didn't have stellar skills (who is anybody trying to kid, great fighter my ass) -- and that's why super slow Carnera clocked him.

[keithmoonhangover]

214 lbs Zeljko Mavrovic and 215 lbs Evander Holyfield took Lennox Lewis punches 1000 times better than 250 lbs Michael Grant or 244 lbs Andrew Golota.

Just because a guy is 215 doesn't mean he can't have a great chin, and very good skills... And just because somebody goes 244 doesn't mean he can't be extremely slow, extremely inept, China chinned, a terrible boxer, and have all the cleverness of Dan Quayle.

And 214-pound fatty Joe Frazier had a great chin...but that didn't matter when rock-solid, 217-pound, much better trained and prepared George Foreman started smashing his brains in...getting him out of there in less than 2 rounds.. At times you need a few defensive skills to go along with that great chin.. Jack Sharkey didn't have stellar skills (who is anybody trying to kid, great fighter my ass) -- and that's why super slow Carnera clocked him.

Kalan, you have proven that you know absolutely nothing about what does or does not make a great or even good boxer, but yet you continue with your biased and completely silly ramblings. You sir are the worst possible kind of poster.... a knowledgeable idiot.

[Kalan]

You're an unknowledgeable idiot... That's worse than having knowledge all day... If you can point out where you disagree instead of issuing personal attacks I would get an idea of just where you disagree with me...

If you don't believe I think Frazier was a great fighter you're mistaken... If you think a guy can't be a great fighter if he's not a skilled boxer that's also a huge mistake on your part... I'm allowed to point out the strengths and weaknesses of various fighters and how they would interplay with the strengths and weaknesses of other fighters... Some guys are just a big fan of one fighter and say, "He could beat anybody." ... That's thinking with your heart, not your brain.

[bollocks]

I have a theory that HW's have overstepped their optimum size. 6'3 and 220 is about it IMO

[Kalan]

Then you have a good nickname... Why wouldn't a bigger, faster, stronger, and more athletic big man beat a smaller man with the same skill set??? Anthony Joshua and Luis Ortiz wouldn't have been better Heavyweights if they were smaller and lighter.. Anymore than LeBron James would be better if he were 6'3" X 220... They don't need to make a Super Heavyweight Division yet because the Cruiserweight Division was created only 1 generation ago... There's a division for small Heavyweights who weigh 220 to boil down to if they so choose to do that. They can make Cruiserweight.

However I believe 220-pound Heavyweight Champions are going to become a rarity in the future -- as bigger, taller, stronger, and faster, athletes seem to be emerging in all very physical sports... Not just Boxing, but Basketball, Football, Rugby, etc. are seeing bigger, stronger players every generation.

[bollocks]

Then you have a good nickname... Why wouldn't a bigger, faster, stronger, and more athletic big man beat a smaller man with the same skill set??? Anthony Joshua and Luis Ortiz wouldn't have been better Heavyweights if they were smaller and lighter.. Anymore than LeBron James would be better if he were 6'3" X 220... They don't need to make a Super Heavyweight Division yet because the Cruiserweight Division was created only 1 generation ago... There's a division for small Heavyweights who weigh 220 to boil down to if they so choose to do that. They can make Cruiserweight.

However I believe 220-pound Heavyweight Champions are going to become a rarity in the future -- as bigger, taller, stronger, and faster, athletes seem to be emerging in all very physical sports... Not just Boxing, but Basketball, Football, Rugby, etc. are seeing bigger, stronger players every generation.

Tyson, Holyfield, Marciano etc etc beat much bigger men than themselves and they did it regularly. They did it because they were better fighters. Valuev was a giant...heap of crap

p.s a 220 pound natural HW will never get down to 200 and be a prime fighter

[Kalan]

What weight does Canelo enter the ring at??? ... And what weight does he fight at??? ... So although dehydrating is tough, the process can be learned and applied... The heavyweights Tyson lost to were bigger and taller than him... or in the case of Holyfield he was just as big as Mike and several inches taller.. Because Douglas and Lewis were very good boxers and punchers they could use their size to control Tyson and beat the living crap out of him.

Nobody ever was ahead of Vitali Klitschko on points -- or ever floored him ... and VK fought to age 41... Nobody has come close to beating Joshua or Ortiz and they would flatten Buster Douglas like he wasn't happening.. They're bigger and stronger and work out hard for every fight, not just one fight in their life.. Tyson beat a natural Light Heavyweight in Spinks like he was nothing.. Michael Spinks was too small to deal with Tyson.. HIs arms were half the size of Tyson's and he got plowed by the much bigger man.. That didn't happen to the bigger Buster Douglas.. Bob Sheridan was certainly amazed "WOW.. Look at this"

[keithmoonhangover]

instead of issuing personal attacks.

I learnt it from you Kalan.

[Ambling Alp II]

Found another. I think Kalan will appreciate it.
Mike Tyson (220) over Frank Bruno (247)

And, gasp, Bruno even had big arms!

Smaller great heavyweights now lead big heavyweights 15-2.

[Seamus]

Why not just look at the BoxRec heavyweight rankings top 20 or top 50 and look at the heights and weights each fighter is listed at. 10 years ago alot of guys were making this same argument on here and 10 years later it hasn't changed, the Heavyweights are still dominated by much bigger men then a few decades ago.

[Ambling Alp II]

The debate is really about how big of an advantage size is. I agree that if you a mediocre 200 pound guy up against a 250 pound mediocre guy, the 250 pound guy will probably win. However, is bigger simply better? Is 300 pound better than 250?
I believe size is advantage to a point. In football, a 170 pound runningback is probably not going to make it. However, how many 280 pound running backs do you see? I think there is an optimal size. You get too big for something and start to have disadvantages.

However, that is just my theory. Other people have there own. People have argued about this on other threads.
That is why I just wanted to see what has really happened in real life.

The argument is clear. Put a smaller great heavyweight up against a really big heavyweight and see what happens. So far it's 15-2 for the smaller great fighter.

[Seamus]

The best heavyweights now tend to be between 6-3 and 6-7, and from about 220 to 250. It's never been like that in the history of boxing.

[keithmoonhangover]

So it's not just size...

Or if someone has ever stepped into a boxing ring...

[BoxBuzz]

It can't be that weight classes matter up until some arbitrary number.

And since people are getting bigger over all....maybe it's time for those additional weight classes.

Or the poor little 220 pounder will be lost in the shuffle when the future finally arrives.

Is that the point your making Kalan?

If so...I'm not sure you've completely lost your mind on that one.

But don't quote me on that.

[Kalan]

You've lost your mind and you can quote me on that. You managed another post filled with utter drivel.

[keithmoonhangover]

You've lost your mind and you can quote me on that. You managed another post filled with utter drivel.

Kalan, you are the World Heavyweight Champion of Drivel. Wilt Chamberlain doesn't even beat Lionel Butler, let alone Ali and Frazier.

[elmersalsa]

How about these results?:
Muhammad Ali W15 Ernie Terrell
Mike Tyson WTKO8, W12 Razor Ruddock
Larry Holmes WTKO14 Gerry Cooney
Jimmy Young W10 George Foreman

More power to the smaller heavyweights, Kalan?