Enzo Calzaghe: boxing genius?

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:01

He seems to be one of the most unpopular figures in British boxing, probably because he says exactly what's on his mind, and doesn't mind who he pisses off in the process. He's never on any boxing TV shows - never ringside giving his views, never in the Sky studios ( loads of news print hacks though )

He's completely ignored by the boxing media on the whole.

But surely it's time the man got some major credit at long last? He's brought his son along, undefeated in 18 years, into the top 5 P4P boxers in the world.
He told everyone who'd listen ( which was virtualy no-one ) that Joe was a different league from Lacy. That the Americans had made a huge mistake in taking the match, and that Joe was going to take the guy apart no trouble at all.

And was he ever right.

And this is a man who has never boxed: a completely self taught trainer, working out of a shed in a field in the middle of Wales.

Taking on the boxing world's elite trainers and fighters, and leaving them in the dust.

I'd say that's a phenominal achievement. Well done Enzo

"He can't punch shit!" link -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebZqEBVf ... 20calzaghe

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:07

Very true re: Enzo - maybe he swears a bit too much for tv?.

Maybe you can find the showtime version of the fight?.

He caaaaan punch for shit - he ainlt f all - he is shit!

Easy Joe!

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:15

Yeah just watching the Showtime version right now - took about 30 mins to down load here's the link -

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5ALZ82H6

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:16

Wouldnt put Joe in the top 5 P4P just based on that fight mate but hey its all opinions...

Enzo has done well but look what he is working with?

Would he be so successful working with others? I doubt it...

No doubt he has done well with Joe though.

HH

bugs · Post by **bugs** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:22

Hardhitters11 wrote:Wouldnt put Joe in the top 5 P4P just based on that fight mate but hey its all opinions...

Enzo has done well but look what he is working with?

Would he be so successful working with others? I doubt it...

No doubt he has done well with Joe though.

HH

It is not just based on that fight, althought the total dismantling of a respected world champion (regardless of the revisionists) helps. It is being so long undefeated, it is beating some good fighters along the way, it is his skill level, it is the number of fighters he has stopped, it is the success he has had in so many fights, it is a lot of things, and it is difficult to see how you cna not have him there, what is your top ten, if those accomplisments are not enough??

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:26

Hahaha he can't punch shit.

Wish ITV didn't throw ads on the main events though, I don't mind on the undercards but not the main event.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:30

Well I said before the fight that in terms of ability alone, Joe was top ten P4P - he just hadn't had the big platform to show it.

But he certainly showed that ability Sat night. The heart, chin, speed and combination punching puts him right up there with the very best.

Almost the complete fighter, only lacking one punch power I'd say.

Like you say HH, it's all opinions, but I reckon you'd be hard pressed to come up with 5 boxers who definitely have more talent than Joe Calzaghe.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:33

He's provisionally number 6 in my list, which I won't send to max until the end of the month. Leapfrogs into the spot held by Hatton.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Mar 2006, 07:37

By the way, how's this for a f*** up - unlike the rest of the country, ITV Wales didn't bother screening the Sunday AM repeat.

They screened a Swansea football match instead.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 08 Mar 2006, 08:14

Sounded like the showtime version made the boos sound lower than they were.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Mar 2006, 08:21

MightyWarrior wrote:Well I said before the fight that in terms of ability alone, Joe was top ten P4P - he just hadn't had the big platform to show it.

But he certainly showed that ability Sat night. The heart, chin, speed and combination punching puts him right up there with the very best.

Almost the complete fighter, only lacking one punch power I'd say.

Like you say HH, it's all opinions, but I reckon you'd be hard pressed to come up with 5 boxers who definitely have more talent than Joe Calzaghe.

Indeed. Aside from Mayweather, name another fighter who is head and shoulders above Calzaghe in terms of talent, and I don't even feel the gulf there is extraordinarily wide. Mayweather has betted defence, but Calzaghe is better offensively. Corrales, Castillo? Neither is more talented.

Barrera, possibly, he's a very good all around fighter. Pacquaio, physically perhaps, in terms of technique, not sure about that.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 08 Mar 2006, 08:27

But are there any boxers who can punch shit?

I know about Duran being literally full of shit in the Leonard rematch but i'm sure he couldn't have punched it

or is punching shit some sort of gay sex thing, either way there is no place for it in a boxing ring and if Joe can manage it I hope he keeps it to himself

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 08 Mar 2006, 08:32

Personally i think Enzo is a bit of a prick, but you can't argue with his achievements with Joe considering he started from scratch. Fair play Enzo

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Mar 2006, 08:35

Beat me too it terrence old son. Just like Gainford , he is lucky to have a very talented fighter in his gym, and similarly hasn't produced anyone of similar calibre. Perhaps though that is due to focussing on Calzaghe's career so much.

How come boxrec has Harry Wiley listed as Robinson's trainer, thought it was George Gainford?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Mar 2006, 08:58

Calzaghe shades it because of overall better comp. How many fighters of the calibre of Reid, Woodhall, Mitchell, Brewer has Hatton faced?

The win over Tszyu was against a more proven competitor, but one at the end of a long career.

Joe just nicks it as he has proven himself world class over a longer period, hard to argue that before Tszyu Hatton had proven himself world class.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Mar 2006, 12:11

Terence wrote:To put my money in about the original theme of the thread I think Enzo is in a similar position to the great Sugar Ray's trainer; when he boasted he was the greatest trainer by dint of the greatest fighter someone asked how many other greats he trained.

trainers like Roach & McGirt are rated the best of the best, but how many world class fighters have these guys trained from scratch? Zero I'd guess.

And Bouie Fisher - who else has he got except Hopkins?

You only need one masterpiece in a lifetime

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 08 Mar 2006, 12:37

There was a programme on Enzo on Radio Wales - he trained Joe for a bit - took him to a amateur club at a very young age, and the amateur club said he had a huge future and they didn't want to tamper with his progress.

As much as Enzo deserves praise, and I have slagged him off in the past - its the fighter that makes the trainer in most instances. Take Matthew and Ricky Hatton - both had the same upbringing, but one is a world beater - the other isn't.

As for P4P - I don't have Joe in the top 5 yet either, its very close between him and Hatton. Joe has still yet to beat a Kostya Tszyu esque opponent.

At least Carlos Maussa beat a top 5 Light Welterweight something still none of Joe's opponents have managed with the exception of Eubank.

Although I have Calzaghe sneeked past Hatton due to the manner of the Lacy win.

1) Mayweather 2) Pacquiao 3) Barerra 4) Wright 5) Rafael Marquez 6) Calzaghe 7) Hatton 8) Taylor 9) Castillo 10) Tarver

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Mar 2006, 12:49

Similar to mine stu

1 Mayweather (1)
2 Manny (2)
3 Barrera (3)
4 Toney (4)
5 Wright (5)
6 Calzaghe (12)
7 Hatton (6)
8 Castillo (7)
9 Marquez (8)
10 Corralles (9)

Just outside, Taylor, Tarver, Chris John, lots of other little guys.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 08 Mar 2006, 12:54

MightyWarrior wrote:Well I said before the fight that in terms of ability alone, Joe was top ten P4P - he just hadn't had the big platform to show it.

But he certainly showed that ability Sat night. The heart, chin, speed and combination punching puts him right up there with the very best.

Almost the complete fighter, only lacking one punch power I'd say.

Like you say HH, it's all opinions, but I reckon you'd be hard pressed to come up with 5 boxers who definitely have more talent than Joe Calzaghe.

Joe doesn't have the resume for top 10 P4P before the Lacy fight. No one should've had Lacy in the top ten, so I don't see how it would put Joe in the top 5. I have Joe at 10 at the moment, but if he takes a shit fight next fight, and even if he wins, he's dropping.

You got guys at the top of p4p like Floyd, Manny, Barrera, and JLC who have had numerous fights that were the caliber of Calzaghe/Lacy...to have Joe leapfrog all of them is a bit on the crazy side.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 08 Mar 2006, 13:03

MightyWarrior wrote:Yeah just watching the Showtime version right now - took about 30 mins to down load here's the link -

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5ALZ82H6

Nice one!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Mar 2006, 13:03

It doesn't work that way. You don't have to beat someone in the top 10 to enter the top 10.

Earlier in his career, there were a lot of other fighters who deserved a top 10 spot, and Joe kept trudging along winning and racking up defences, without having a defining fight to elevate him.

After all, Hopkins got right near the top after beating Tito, but let's face it, Tito wasn't a real middleweight in any case, and though a very impressive performance, people were judging Hopkins placement based on the fact that he had been champ a very long time in a weak era.

I think you have to consider longevity. If someone is at the top or very near it in their weight a long time, and then pull off the kind of one sided beating Joe gave Lacy, then they deserve a top 10 spot.

Jermaine Taylor by contrast beat absolutely nobody before beating Hopkins, and barely squeaked a decision which was highly debatable, especially in the 1st fight, so right now doesn't deserve a top spot until we see a dominant performance against a genuine middleweight threat.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 08 Mar 2006, 13:07

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Similar to mine stu

1 Mayweather (1)
2 Manny (2)
3 Barrera (3)
4 Toney (4)
5 Wright (5)
6 Calzaghe (12)
7 Hatton (6)
8 Castillo (7)
9 Marquez (8)
10 Corralles (9)

Just outside, Taylor, Tarver, Chris John, lots of other little guys.

Chris John Beat JM Marquez the other day!

( if you mean JM Marquez is number 9 and not his brother)

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 08 Mar 2006, 13:18

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Similar to mine stu

1 Mayweather (1)
2 Manny (2)
3 Barrera (3) - 1 good win since been dominated by MP
4 Toney (4) - hes a HW debateable
5 Wright (5) - was Mosley a great LMW champ? 2 great wins but I think hes overated
6 Calzaghe (12) - I'd have him top3 not just for Lacy but the manner of the win and
7 Hatton (6)
8 Castillo (7)
9 Marquez (8) - JMM just lost his brothers comp isn't as strong
10 Corralles (9)

Just outside, Taylor, Tarver, Chris John, lots of other little guys.

Neri · Post by **Neri** » 08 Mar 2006, 13:45

MightyWarrior wrote:Yeah just watching the Showtime version right now - took about 30 mins to down load here's the link -

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5ALZ82H6

What does it open with? WMP won't play it.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 08 Mar 2006, 13:47

stujones wrote:There was a programme on Enzo on Radio Wales - he trained Joe for a bit - took him to a amateur club at a very young age, and the amateur club said he had a huge future and they didn't want to tamper with his progress.

As much as Enzo deserves praise, and I have slagged him off in the past - its the fighter that makes the trainer in most instances. Take Matthew and Ricky Hatton - both had the same upbringing, but one is a world beater - the other isn't.

As for P4P - I don't have Joe in the top 5 yet either, its very close between him and Hatton. Joe has still yet to beat a Kostya Tszyu esque opponent.

At least Carlos Maussa beat a top 5 Light Welterweight something still none of Joe's opponents have managed with the exception of Eubank.

Although I have Calzaghe sneeked past Hatton due to the manner of the Lacy win.

1) Mayweather 2) Pacquiao 3) Barerra 4) Wright 5) Rafael Marquez 6) Calzaghe 7) Hatton 8) Taylor 9) Castillo 10) Tarver

i hope damn well calzaghe's opposition didn't beat top 5 light welters. Robin reid did beat an ex 154 champ, JC Vasquez however, LOL

seriously, Joe's opp is better than you think

Byron Mitchell beat Siaca twice (top 10 s/m) and KO'd Frankie Liles (top 5). Brewer beat Herol Graham (coming off a comeback win over touted Chris Johnson and also Paz, to get a solid rating). Woodhall beat titlists Malinga, Silvio Branco and Nardiello, some of whom were surely top 10. Reid beat Nardiello, Wharton and would be robbed vs Ottke. Lacy spanked a top 10 guy in Reid, I don't know if Pemberton was or wasn't in the top 10.

hell, Sheika beat Glen Johnson who should have been top 10 on the strength of his fight with Ottke, i.e. barely losing