Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Who wins?

Poll ended at 07 Dec 2016, 11:41

Vitali - KO/TKO
7
25%
Vitali - Decision
3
11%
DRAW
2
7%
Tyson - Decision
4
14%
Tyson - KO/TKO
12
43%
 
Total votes: 28

Ambling Alp II
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Ambling Alp II »

man wrote:
Ambling Alp II wrote:KO% does not mean much by itself. You have to take into competition.
He never came close to stopping Byrd in their crappy fight before he was injured and quit.
Don't see how he showed courage against Lewis. He fought an obese fighter, and got stopped in six rounds.

A serious ankle injury is completely different than a shoulder injury. If you can't stand up, you can't fight. If you hurt your shoulder, you can still stand up. Remember, all he had to do was stand up for three rounds. Any fighter worth his salt would have toughed it out.
Tyson was light years better.
well, everyone else on the planet, including
the commentators and the crowd on location
had thought he had shown courage. actually
they all couldn't stop talking about it.

and "obese" might be a stretch. plus lennox
was not the bouncing around type to begin
with. his additional seven pounds would
have played a role towards the end of the
fight, but up to that point, lewis didn't
seem to gas to me.

on the injury. i don't know, i find it weird to
hold this against him despite all achievements
and define him by being a quitter. first of
all he had real, physical reason and second
no serious boxing fan calls even roberto duran
a "quitter". there are indeed "quitters", but these
two proved in many hours of other bouts that
they were not such men.
-Why was it such an act of courage? His face looked like hamburger. We have all seen this countless times. Why is is such a big deal when Klitschko does it? Any fighter worth his salt would have continued. Ridiculous that people think this is a big deal.

- Take a look at Lewis in that fight. He was soft. Lewis was never soft in any other fight. It is important for many reasons.
He was clearly rusty. It didn't look like he had trained much at all. Yes Lewis did looked "gassed" at times, even though the fight only went six rounds. He looked slow.

-It's not weird at all to hold quitting Byrd against Klitschko. It happened. It was one of the two important fights of Klitschko's career. Duran's quitting against Leonard should be held against him too. Obviously that has to be weighed against Duran's many great performances; never the less it happened and has to count against Duran.

Klitschko does not have much else to weigh this against. His many achievements consist of being poor-mediocre competition. The WBS title defenses don't mean much. His best win was against Corrie Sanders. That says a lot right there.
He did not have to face adversity because his competition was so bad. It's what happens when you fight quality opponents that counts.

His best two opponents was a woefully out of shape Lewis and Chris Byrd, a good, but certainly not a great fighter. He went 0-2.
He had two big fights in his career; in one he quit. The other he got stopped in six rounds.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by davie »

Kalan
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

Jaywheel wrote:
Kalan wrote: He fought many clever boxers like Kevin Johnson, 22-0-1... Tomasz Adamek, 44-1... Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Kevin Johnson 34-1... and Herbie Hide, 31-1...
:lol: :lol: so many that you have to name Kevin Johnson twice out of 4 names. And Adamek... do you even know what clever means?
I meant Kirk Johnson 34-1... He fought a clever fight beating Larry Donald.. Clever is the opposite dumb -- the latter describes many of your posts.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

Tyson refused to say he would have beaten the Klitschko's... He said that fighters get better with each generation and modern Heavyweights are better -- better nutrition etc... I think an interesting fight will be Joshua knocking out Wladimir ... Heavyweights are still getting better.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Vitalis poor technique, lack of inginuity and poor power was hardly boxing evolution.
Kalan
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

He had good enough ingenuity and technique to be winning all his fights on points at their conclusion... and to never be knocked down.

Plus he won more World Heavyweight Title Fights than Tyson did.. Lewis beat the not too clever Tyson every single round.. Vitali was winning on all scorecards at the conclusion of his fight with Lewis, so he must have been a clever boxer.. Vitali brutalized Danny Williams and stopped him early.. In his next fight Danny Williams put Mike Tyson down for the 10-count.

Funny thing about people making the age excuse for Tyson -- because he was younger than Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis.
Ambling Alp II
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Ambling Alp II »

People that know boxing don't make excuses for Tyson losing to Douglas and Holyfield. He lost to opponents who fought great fights. Like almost anyone, he was not good enough to win those fights.

People that know boxing know that he was shot against Williams and McBride and that those fights mean almost nothing..
Kalan
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

People who know Boxing DO know that Tyson got knocked out legitimately by the OLDER Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis... 4 fights with them, 4 losses.. People who know Boxing also know that Vitali Klitschko was winning on ALL SCORECARDS following his fight with Lennox Lewis.

People who know Boxing also know Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's -- but agreed to fight Danny Williams, a fighter who Vitali just brutalized and knocked out early... People who know Boxing know that Williams put Tyson down for the count in a fight where Tyson suffered his 4th KO loss... People who know Boxing know that Vitali came back at age 37, after not having a fight or even a tune-up in 4 years, and destroyed Sam Peter, 30-1, only previously beaten by his brother Wladimir, to win the Heavyweight Championship in his first fight in 4 years. Tyson could never do anything like that.

If Tyson fought Vitali, the little tyke would have been beaten and smashed all over the ring and knocked out -- in a similar manner to what Lewis did to him.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by man »

BoxBuzz wrote:Vitali lost a fight to Chris Byrd, because Chris was able to impose an injury on Vitali (with Vitali's unwitting help) by cleverly working the angles.
goodness.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by man »

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Vitalis poor technique, lack of inginuity and poor power was hardly boxing evolution.
true.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by wouter »

Kalan wrote:People who know Boxing also know Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's -- but agreed to fight Danny Williams, a fighter who Vitali just brutalized and knocked out early...
People who know boxing also know that Williams fought Tyson before facing Klitschko.
Ambling Alp II
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Ambling Alp II »

:lol: :TU:
Kalan
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

wouter wrote:
Kalan wrote:People who know Boxing also know Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's -- but agreed to fight Danny Williams, a fighter who Vitali just brutalized and knocked out early...
People who know boxing also know that Williams fought Tyson before facing Klitschko.
Those fights were back-to-back... which came 1st if irrelevant... Williams knocked out Tyson -- but then was crushed by Klitschko.
Ambling Alp II
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Ambling Alp II »

Kalan wrote:Tyson sucked... 42-1 underdog Buster Douglas.. Who was a lot shorter and smaller than Vitali Klitschko, but dwarfed Mike Tyson. He beat the living crap out Tyson and put him out with brutal smashes... Tyson was as short as the flabby little Frazier and he couldn't avoid those punches... Douglas was so big and long and fast, that all he had to do was throw and he hit Mike right in the face... He was big and strong enough to get Mike out.

You can't compare Vitali to big, stiff, slow guys like Michael Grant... Tomasz Adamek easily out boxed a 38-year-old Grant and beat him -- but Vitali Klitschko won every minute of every round from Adamek and stopped him -- so there's no comparison... Lewis did beat Grant by fouling the poo out of him and holding and hitting like crazy. He destroyed him quickly but should have been DQ'd ... He could't do that to Vitali who completely out-boxed Lewis and was winning on all scorecards after 6 rounds... The fight should have gone to the scorecards because those cuts were slashed opened by foul blows... Lewis was in perfect vs Vital condition... He averaged over 250 for his final 6 fights and deliberately added weight to be much stronger.
Notice the part in bold that Tyson sucked and Lewis was in perfect condition.
In the Rocky Graziano vs Jake LaMotta thread, (December 29) I mentioned these two comments among other things that he said which are ridiculous.

Just want it noted that Kalan responded with "You just spouted a ton of BULLCRAP... I never said Tyson sucked..."

Kalan also said "I didn't say Lewis was in perfect condition... "

:clap:
Is there any reason we should believe anything that Kalan says?
BoxBuzz
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by BoxBuzz »

Kalan wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Chris Byrds athleticism allowed him to lure Vitali into twisting himself into injurious knots.

That is a fact.

Vitali lost a fight to Chris Byrd, because Chris was able to impose an injury on Vitali
Your brain is fried BuzzBox... That is a fact... It's incredible how Chris Byrd was able to lose 4 times to Alexander Povetkin, Ike Ibeabuchi, and Wladimir Klitschko while gettting knocked out 3 times -- and wasn't able to bring that magical gift of imposing injuries into play in those fights.

And it's just unbelievable how an undefeated Heavyweight Champion with Vitali Klitschko's vast experience and skills could be lured into twisting himself into injurious knots... He fought many clever boxers like Kevin Johnson, 22-0-1... Tomasz Adamek, 44-1... Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Kevin Johnson 34-1... and Herbie Hide, 31-1... never over extending himself, and never injuring his arms, back, elbows, or shoulders.. The injury happened because injuries happen to every professional athlete at one time or another. They happen to great boxers and pathetic boxers alike. Usually they happen in training camp -- but sometimes they happen during a fight... How many fights have been postponed because of injuries suffered in camp???

You can't predict an injury... That would be like Charles Martin saying he planned for Czar Glazkov to blow his knee out... If your opponent suffers an injury that allows you to win easily it's very fortunate for you... Stop inventing stupid theories that can only happen in your warped and biased mind.

My Brain is not fried....only lightly toasted....some of that coming from your hot air.

Now...to be specific....you are right....you can not "PREDICT" an injury.....and yet, that does not change the relative odds that on occasion a big powerful slower fighter can be lured into damaging himself by over committing to a smaller faster opponent.

What I can predict is that you will push back against this idea. But I advise you to simply let it roll over your psyche for the rest of the year.....you'll come back in 2017 all the better for taking my sage advice.

Now take pause, and have yourself a 24oz Coke, and reflect on this truth.
SaadOffTheDeck
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Vitali was CRAP! Willie wise beat Julio Chavez who destroyed Hector Camacho who flattened ray Leonard who massacred Thomas hearns who schooled Nate Miller who plastered Alexander gurov who murdered Shaun George who decimated Chris Byrd who made vitali QUIT! CRAP!!!!!!! You TURD!!!!!!!!
IKSRTFO
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by IKSRTFO »

Kalan wrote:
wouter wrote:
Kalan wrote:People who know Boxing also know Tyson refused to fight the Klitschko's -- but agreed to fight Danny Williams, a fighter who Vitali just brutalized and knocked out early...
People who know boxing also know that Williams fought Tyson before facing Klitschko.
Those fights were back-to-back... which came 1st if irrelevant... Williams knocked out Tyson -- but then was crushed by Klitschko.
The title thread said prime for prime. The Tyson that fought Williams is as prime as the Holmes that fought Tyson.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

Doesn't matter... Great boxers age very gracefully... For instance, Vitali Klitschko beat 30-1 Sam Peter for the Heavyweight Championship when he was 37... It was Klitschko's 1st fight in 4 years -- Vitali won his last 12 Heavyweight Championship Fights in a row, fighting to the age of 41.

Mike Tyson was knocked out by 36-year-old Lennox Lewis when he was 35... Mike was a lot younger than Evander Holyfield (30) and Buster Douglas (23) when they beat the living trash out of Mike and knocked him out... Anybody who combined size, height, weight, reach, strength, power, and great boxing skills beat the crap out of lil' Mike... Mike was there to be hit if you had the size, skills, strength, and power -- and didn't back down from a bully.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by elmersalsa »

Kalan wrote:Doesn't matter... Great boxers age very gracefully... For instance, Vitali Klitschko beat 30-1 Sam Peter for the Heavyweight Championship when he was 37... It was Klitschko's 1st fight in 4 years -- Vitali won his last 12 Heavyweight Championship Fights in a row, fighting to the age of 41.

Mike Tyson was knocked out by 36-year-old Lennox Lewis when he was 35... Mike was a lot younger than Evander Holyfield (30) and Buster Douglas (23) when they beat the living trash out of Mike and knocked him out... Anybody who combined size, height, weight, reach, strength, power, and great boxing skills beat the crap out of lil' Mike... Mike was there to be hit if you had the size, skills, strength, and power -- and didn't back down from a bully.
Well, Vitali Klitschko was TOO SLOW for a guy like Iron Mike. Lennox Lewis caught Tyson easy out his prime. Tyson was already washed up. I even knew that he was going to get a beat down. That Lewis is THE BIGGEST FRAUD I know when it comes to rating all time great heavyweights. Nothing of what he did in his prime would convince me that he would have beaten a prime Riddick Bowe, Evander Holyfield, or prime Tyson.

Lewis was champion at the right time. He was not nothing to be awed about.
Kalan
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

[
elmersalsa wrote:
Kalan wrote:Doesn't matter... Great boxers age very gracefully... For instance, Vitali Klitschko beat 30-1 Sam Peter for the Heavyweight Championship when he was 37... It was Klitschko's 1st fight in 4 years -- Vitali won his last 12 Heavyweight Championship Fights in a row, fighting to the age of 41.

Mike Tyson was knocked out by 36-year-old Lennox Lewis when he was 35... Mike was a lot younger than Evander Holyfield (30) and Buster Douglas (23) when they beat the living trash out of Mike and knocked him out... Anybody who combined size, height, weight, reach, strength, power, and great boxing skills beat the crap out of lil' Mike... Mike was there to be hit if you had the size, skills, strength, and power -- and didn't back down from a bully.
Well, Vitali Klitschko was TOO SLOW for a guy like Iron Mike. Lennox Lewis caught Tyson easy out his prime. Tyson was already washed up. I even knew that he was going to get a beat down. That Lewis is THE BIGGEST FRAUD I know when it comes to rating all time great heavyweights. Nothing of what he did in his prime would convince me that he would have beaten a prime Riddick Bowe, Evander Holyfield, or prime Tyson.

Lewis was champion at the right time. He was not nothing to be awed about.
Lewis was awesome... He crushed prime Ruddock, Grant, and Golota in 1 or 2 rounds each... beat Morrison silly... outslugged Ray Mercer... and boxed David Tua's ears off... Lewis was older than Tyson -- but he beat the loud mouthed bully right into the canvas.. Lewis punched MIke right in his motor mouth practically through 8 rounds -- and leveled the relentless braggart for the count.

The slow and punchless Golota punched the crap out of Bowe.. Bowe had no defense.. Even Michael Grant was faster than Golota, and made him quit.

Lewis would have murdered the wide open Bowe... Bowe trashed his Championship Belt rather than get knocked cold by Lewis.. Bowe was so easy to hit that he avoided big, tall, great punchers.. Bowe would have done as poorly vs big, tall, great punchers as Joe Frazier---who didn't fight any other than Foreman... Frazier certainly didn't fight Ron Lyle, who had Foreman down twice and very nearly knocked him out. In contrast Frazier couldn't reach Foreman with anything.. Bowe, Tyson, and Frazier were all bully types - if you stood up to bullies like Lewis always did, they melted into the woodwork..

Saying Vitali was slow is like saying Lewis was SUPER slow.. Vitali easily beat Lewis to the punch and outscored him by a wide margin.. But Lewis easily out-sped Mike Tyson and outscored HIM by a wide margin.. So you just hate Eastern Europeans and will malign them in any event.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by bollocks »

Tyson on points without too much trouble
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

Mike would never last... Even 42-1 underdog Douglas beat the living crap out of 23-year-old MIke Tyson in Mike's 38th fight... so the kid was no greenhorn.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by elmersalsa »

Kalan wrote:[
elmersalsa wrote:
Kalan wrote:Doesn't matter... Great boxers age very gracefully... For instance, Vitali Klitschko beat 30-1 Sam Peter for the Heavyweight Championship when he was 37... It was Klitschko's 1st fight in 4 years -- Vitali won his last 12 Heavyweight Championship Fights in a row, fighting to the age of 41.

Mike Tyson was knocked out by 36-year-old Lennox Lewis when he was 35... Mike was a lot younger than Evander Holyfield (30) and Buster Douglas (23) when they beat the living trash out of Mike and knocked him out... Anybody who combined size, height, weight, reach, strength, power, and great boxing skills beat the crap out of lil' Mike... Mike was there to be hit if you had the size, skills, strength, and power -- and didn't back down from a bully.
Well, Vitali Klitschko was TOO SLOW for a guy like Iron Mike. Lennox Lewis caught Tyson easy out his prime. Tyson was already washed up. I even knew that he was going to get a beat down. That Lewis is THE BIGGEST FRAUD I know when it comes to rating all time great heavyweights. Nothing of what he did in his prime would convince me that he would have beaten a prime Riddick Bowe, Evander Holyfield, or prime Tyson.

Lewis was champion at the right time. He was not nothing to be awed about.
Lewis was awesome... He crushed prime Ruddock, Grant, and Golota in 1 or 2 rounds each... beat Morrison silly... outslugged Ray Mercer... and boxed David Tua's ears off... Lewis was older than Tyson -- but he beat the loud mouthed bully right into the canvas.. Lewis punched MIke right in his motor mouth practically through 8 rounds -- and leveled the relentless braggart for the count.

The slow and punchless Golota punched the crap out of Bowe.. Bowe had no defense.. Even Michael Grant was faster than Golota, and made him quit.

Lewis would have murdered the wide open Bowe... Bowe trashed his Championship Belt rather than get knocked cold by Lewis.. Bowe was so easy to hit that he avoided big, tall, great punchers.. Bowe would have done as poorly vs big, tall, great punchers as Joe Frazier---who didn't fight any other than Foreman... Frazier certainly didn't fight Ron Lyle, who had Foreman down twice and very nearly knocked him out. In contrast Frazier couldn't reach Foreman with anything.. Bowe, Tyson, and Frazier were all bully types - if you stood up to bullies like Lewis always did, they melted into the woodwork..

Saying Vitali was slow is like saying Lewis was SUPER slow.. Vitali easily beat Lewis to the punch and outscored him by a wide margin.. But Lewis easily out-sped Mike Tyson and outscored HIM by a wide margin.. So you just hate Eastern Europeans and will malign them in any event.
First of all, Eastern European boxers or people have not done anything to me.

Second, Vitali Klitschko IS NOT FAST ENOUGH to beat a beast like the great Mike Tyson. He couldn't beat an ill-prepared, running out of gas and wilting champion like Lennox Lewis. I imagine if a prime Tyson or just the Tyson before biting the great Evander Holyfield would have been on that ring. Lewis ain't beating Tyson that night. Lewis would have get A NASTY KNOCKOUT! I could even see it.

And even when Lewis beat that OLD VERSION AND WASHED UP TYSON didn't impressed me one bit. I knew that Tyson was gonna get his ass kicked that night. I just knew it. Tyson was not even close to his former self.

The Tyson of the 80s was a phenomenal fighting machine. Not too many boxers from the past and present would have beaten him.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Klee Gluckman »

In all honestly

Klitschko deserve credit for their longitivity and professionalism. But I cant see 1988 Tyson losing to either fighter, I don't think Tyson v Wlad is much different to Tyson v Tubbs. I don't think Tyson has any problem going 12 rounds under Rooney, Rooney wont forget the Enswell and Tyson respects Rooney's advice. While Tyson is never invincible, I still think he would beat the brothers.
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Re: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson prime for prime

Post by Kalan »

elmersalsa wrote:
Kalan wrote:[
elmersalsa wrote:
Well, Vitali Klitschko was TOO SLOW for a guy like Iron Mike. Lennox Lewis caught Tyson easy out his prime. Tyson was already washed up. I even knew that he was going to get a beat down. That Lewis is THE BIGGEST FRAUD I know when it comes to rating all time great heavyweights. Nothing of what he did in his prime would convince me that he would have beaten a prime Riddick Bowe, Evander Holyfield, or prime Tyson.

Lewis was champion at the right time. He was not nothing to be awed about.
Lewis was awesome... He crushed prime Ruddock, Grant, and Golota in 1 or 2 rounds each... beat Morrison silly... outslugged Ray Mercer... and boxed David Tua's ears off... Lewis was older than Tyson -- but he beat the loud mouthed bully right into the canvas.. Lewis punched MIke right in his motor mouth practically through 8 rounds -- and leveled the relentless braggart for the count.

The slow and punchless Golota punched the crap out of Bowe.. Bowe had no defense.. Even Michael Grant was faster than Golota, and made him quit.

Lewis would have murdered the wide open Bowe... Bowe trashed his Championship Belt rather than get knocked cold by Lewis.. Bowe was so easy to hit that he avoided big, tall, great punchers.. Bowe would have done as poorly vs big, tall, great punchers as Joe Frazier---who didn't fight any other than Foreman... Frazier certainly didn't fight Ron Lyle, who had Foreman down twice and very nearly knocked him out. In contrast Frazier couldn't reach Foreman with anything.. Bowe, Tyson, and Frazier were all bully types - if you stood up to bullies like Lewis always did, they melted into the woodwork..

Saying Vitali was slow is like saying Lewis was SUPER slow.. Vitali easily beat Lewis to the punch and outscored him by a wide margin.. But Lewis easily out-sped Mike Tyson and outscored HIM by a wide margin.. So you just hate Eastern Europeans and will malign them in any event.
First of all, Eastern European boxers or people have not done anything to me.

Second, Vitali Klitschko IS NOT FAST ENOUGH to beat a beast like the great Mike Tyson. He couldn't beat an ill-prepared, running out of gas and wilting champion like Lennox Lewis. I imagine if a prime Tyson or just the Tyson before biting the great Evander Holyfield would have been on that ring. Lewis ain't beating Tyson that night. Lewis would have get A NASTY KNOCKOUT! I could even see it.

And even when Lewis beat that OLD VERSION AND WASHED UP TYSON didn't impressed me one bit. I knew that Tyson was gonna get his ass kicked that night. I just knew it. Tyson was not even close to his former self.

The Tyson of the 80s was a phenomenal fighting machine. Not too many boxers from the past and present would have beaten him.
Eastern Europeans don't have to do anything to you for you to hate them.. They live in an area of the world that's been at odds with America for a long time.. I'm sure they have an entirely different view of Americans than we do because of that.. The feeling is often mutual.. The hate directed against non-Americans, but specifically Eastern Europeans on his site is unbelievable, and they don't get a square deal over here.

Tyson wasn't that phenomenal.. That was proven by Buster Douglas who had several losses on his record including losing 3 previous fights by KO... As I said, It wasn't a fluke lucky punch like Rahman caught Lewis... Douglas thoroughly out-boxed Tyson and knocked him out.. That was a young, strong, prime Tyson and don't come with excuses.. Lewis and Holyfield were also older than Tyson, but both beat the crap out of Mike before stopping him.

Vitali was fast at eluding punches and fast at punching his opponents... His hands were very fast... Nobody ever outpointed him and he fought until he was 41.. I love the way you say Vitali IS not fast, using the present tense.. He's 45 so he wouldn't be that fast.. Prime Vitali was fast enough to KO fighters who beat Tyson and Holyfield.. He only lost 2 fights -- both due to injury -- fights that he was winning on all score cards at the conclusion. Your perception of his speed is biased nonsense.
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