Mike Tyson - could you beat klitschko in your prime?

[Mimmy]

http://smackhisface.com/2016/11/02/mike ... our-prime/

Even though I would have to say yea Mike actually believes the same thing as I do that athletes get better over the years. This is why I believe Lennox Lewis could have beat Ali, along with Evander Holyfield and several others. I go along with believing that athletes have improved over the decades and thats why you cannot say for certain who was the greatest.

[Dixonian]

http://smackhisface.com/2016/11/02/mike ... our-prime/

Even though I would have to say yea Mike actually believes the same thing as I do that athletes get better over the years. This is why I believe Lennox Lewis could have beat Ali, along with Evander Holyfield and several others. I go along with believing that athletes have improved over the decades and thats why you cannot say for certain who was the greatest.

I've heard Tyson make some interesting comments about this in the past. I find it refreshing that Tyson, as an ex-champ, doesn't conform to the 'it was better in my day' cliches.

[daviddee]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

[Boxerbeetle]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

Really? I don't see that at all.

[HomicideHenry]

While such arguments have valid points, one must also consider this: What if Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, etc. all had the training of fighters today? The only edge I can really give guys today, versus guys from earlier generations, is an edge in hand and foot speed. Otherwise I would argue that the men of earlier generations had greater conditioning and edurance, and also were tougher men (especially in eras where bouts were 20+ rounds, mma sized gloves, referees that weren't so squeamish, etc).

The men of today may also be bigger than men of previous eras, and may be more mobile than those earlier fighters---- however I notice boxing varies from country to country. In America the fighters are more unorthodox in their styles and aggressive, but don't have the conditioning and endurance, whereas the European fighters have conditioning and endurance but their style is more textbook. And so on and so forth. So I think alot of it really comes down to will, desire, innovation, commitment to the craft.

I think there is a train of thought that many fighters today didn't have to go through the poverty, harshness, etc of life as earlier fighters did---- the older generation, you literally had to kill them in order to beat them, for they overcame so much. In this day and age, such things are becoming less and less, so where is the struggle? If they do train like madmen, then it is self imposed, rather than some trial of life that NEEDS to be done.

As for Tyson and the Klitschko's.... styles ultimately make fights.... Tyson in his prime was something to behold, yes, but he was also a systematic fighter (following a punch-number system) and he could easily be tied up, etc. however his head movement, hand speed, overall defense and explosive power was generally enough to overcome any physical disadvantages he may have had. Ironically, he was slated to fight Vitali Klitschko at one point. Many have forgotten this, but had Tyson defeated Danny Williams he would have gotten a shot at Vitali. Of course, Tyson's leg gave out in the fight, and Vitali lamented the fact that he wouldn't be fighting his idol. Therefore, Vitali fought Danny Williams.

That would have been an interesting fight to have seen, even though Mike was nothing more than a shell of himself. There was literally nothing there. He was effectively a three or four round fighter at that point. That was all he was good for. After all, he did win the first round against Lennox Lewis, in their bout. However, as awkward asVitali was and as strong as he was, etc. I have little doubt that he'd of stopped Mike inside of six rounds had they fought at that point.

As for prime for prime.... Who knows.... I'd like to think Mike would have won, but Vitali was a damn good fighter in his own right. Some still say he was better than Wladimir, and we have seen how many great accomplishments he (Vlad) has done. So that really is saying something. Its something that Mike, in his prime, never exactly achieved (a long reign) and he was fighting in an era much like our own where there isnt that many good guys out there.

I will say, though, stylistically and physically the Klitschko's would have been a threat to most any champion in history, including Muhammad Ali. Think about it: Ali may of fought men as tall, or as heavy, or as strong, or as skilled.... but he never really fought anyone who was a combination of all those things.... I think whether its Vitali or Vladimir, Ali would have had a hell of a time looking good against such men. However, if you take someone like Larry Holmes or Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis, who did have experience fighting skilled, strong, tall men then the chances favor them as to being the winner of such contests. Styles make fights. Experience counts.

With Mike Tyson, his weaknesses were apparent even in his prime, just nobody could capitalize on them until he physically and mentally let himself go. He fought men nearly as big and as skilled as the Klitschko's (Tucker, Smith) but even in those fights he allowed himself to be tied up and he didn't look impressive in them. Imagine, then, the Klitschko's who were far and away better than those men. Not a good recipe for Mike. Especially when the Klitschko's were two of the most precise punchers, with damn good power, in heavyweight history.

[Mimmy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good points there Henry!

[daviddee]

While such arguments have valid points, one must also consider this: What if Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, etc. all had the training of fighters today? The only edge I can really give guys today, versus guys from earlier generations, is an edge in hand and foot speed. Otherwise I would argue that the men of earlier generations had greater conditioning and edurance, and also were tougher men (especially in eras where bouts were 20+ rounds, mma sized gloves, referees that weren't so squeamish, etc).

The men of today may also be bigger than men of previous eras, and may be more mobile than those earlier fighters---- however I notice boxing varies from country to country. In America the fighters are more unorthodox in their styles and aggressive, but don't have the conditioning and endurance, whereas the European fighters have conditioning and endurance but their style is more textbook. And so on and so forth. So I think alot of it really comes down to will, desire, innovation, commitment to the craft.

I think there is a train of thought that many fighters today didn't have to go through the poverty, harshness, etc of life as earlier fighters did---- the older generation, you literally had to kill them in order to beat them, for they overcame so much. In this day and age, such things are becoming less and less, so where is the struggle? If they do train like madmen, then it is self imposed, rather than some trial of life that NEEDS to be done.

As for Tyson and the Klitschko's.... styles ultimately make fights.... Tyson in his prime was something to behold, yes, but he was also a systematic fighter (following a punch-number system) and he could easily be tied up, etc. however his head movement, hand speed, overall defense and explosive power was generally enough to overcome any physical disadvantages he may have had. Ironically, he was slated to fight Vitali Klitschko at one point. Many have forgotten this, but had Tyson defeated Danny Williams he would have gotten a shot at Vitali. Of course, Tyson's leg gave out in the fight, and Vitali lamented the fact that he wouldn't be fighting his idol. Therefore, Vitali fought Danny Williams.

That would have been an interesting fight to have seen, even though Mike was nothing more than a shell of himself. There was literally nothing there. He was effectively a three or four round fighter at that point. That was all he was good for. After all, he did win the first round against Lennox Lewis, in their bout. However, as awkward asVitali was and as strong as he was, etc. I have little doubt that he'd of stopped Mike inside of six rounds had they fought at that point.

As for prime for prime.... Who knows.... I'd like to think Mike would have won, but Vitali was a damn good fighter in his own right. Some still say he was better than Wladimir, and we have seen how many great accomplishments he (Vlad) has done. So that really is saying something. Its something that Mike, in his prime, never exactly achieved (a long reign) and he was fighting in an era much like our own where there isnt that many good guys out there.

I will say, though, stylistically and physically the Klitschko's would have been a threat to most any champion in history, including Muhammad Ali. Think about it: Ali may of fought men as tall, or as heavy, or as strong, or as skilled.... but he never really fought anyone who was a combination of all those things.... I think whether its Vitali or Vladimir, Ali would have had a hell of a time looking good against such men. However, if you take someone like Larry Holmes or Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis, who did have experience fighting skilled, strong, tall men then the chances favor them as to being the winner of such contests. Styles make fights. Experience counts.

With Mike Tyson, his weaknesses were apparent even in his prime, just nobody could capitalize on them until he physically and mentally let himself go. He fought men nearly as big and as skilled as the Klitschko's (Tucker, Smith) but even in those fights he allowed himself to be tied up and he didn't look impressive in them. Imagine, then, the Klitschko's who were far and away better than those men. Not a good recipe for Mike. Especially when the Klitschko's were two of the most precise punchers, with damn good power, in heavyweight history.

I couldn't of put it better if I wrote it myself.. I actually hate the Klitscho brothers they really are as boring as the come however they are certainly the most effective of all time. Vitali is definitely the better he had an amazing chin that Wlad doesn't have meaning he could take more risks.. I'm a huge Tyson fan and argue that he is the best of all time but in my opinion to be the best of all time you don't need to be able to beat everyone..

If Wlad is at 80% of his best he will stop AJ very similar to some of his previous fights.. He will make AJ make a mistake then night night

[Monte Fisto]

Vitali most definitely better than Wlad. Prime for Prime id say Tyson as he was truly a phonem in his prime (despite a short lived prime), but Vitali had one of the best chins i've ever seen so it would not have been plain sailing or straightforward.

[Lenny]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

What about Lennox Lewis?

Vitali was one of the toughest heavyweights I've seen and would give anyone a tough fight but he doesn't have the skills to be up there with the greats.

[rossij8]

Great read from Henry

Prime for Prime defo Tyson for me vs VK

WK wouldn't last long, even with Manny and even Lennox would have struggled against a prime Tyson

[Boxerbeetle]

Prime for prime, Tyson would have annihilated Wlad, as would nearly all of the top heavyweights from various eras.

Vitali would have done better due to his chin and overall resilience, but still loses to the vast majority of them.

As for Tyson-Lewis prime for prime - that's a genuine 50/50 in my eyes. But, importantly for me, Lewis's prime came with a wealth of experience and knowledge, whereas Tyson's prime was extremely early. On that basis, I would shade the advantage to Lewis.

[daviddee]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

What about Lennox Lewis?

Vitali was one of the toughest heavyweights I've seen and would give anyone a tough fight but he doesn't have the skills to be up there with the greats.

He was beating Lewis comfortably before being stopped on cuts.. A lot of foul shots in that fight should of gone to scorecards.. Lewis was the master of getting the right fights at the right time.. I think he would beat 90 % of all time heavyweights.. Vitali is massively skilled.. Amazing feet and quick hands. Was also a monster with a huge back hand would put anyone down..

[Monte Fisto]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

What about Lennox Lewis?

Vitali was one of the toughest heavyweights I've seen and would give anyone a tough fight but he doesn't have the skills to be up there with the greats.

He was beating Lewis comfortably before being stopped on cuts.. A lot of foul shots in that fight should of gone to scorecards.. Lewis was the master of getting the right fights at the right time.. I think he would beat 90 % of all time heavyweights.. Vitali is massively skilled.. Amazing feet and quick hands. Was also a monster with a huge back hand would put anyone down..

This fight was at a horrible time for Lewis.. Also there was nothing comfortable in that fight for either of them.Yes Vitali was shading it but his face was battered by the stronger puncher who was taking everything Vitali had.
Not having a go at Vitali at all, i just see that fight very differently.

[Boxerbeetle]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

What about Lennox Lewis?

Vitali was one of the toughest heavyweights I've seen and would give anyone a tough fight but he doesn't have the skills to be up there with the greats.

He was beating Lewis comfortably before being stopped on cuts.. A lot of foul shots in that fight should of gone to scorecards.. Lewis was the master of getting the right fights at the right time.. I think he would beat 90 % of all time heavyweights.. Vitali is massively skilled.. Amazing feet and quick hands. Was also a monster with a huge back hand would put anyone down..

Massively skilled is a major overstatement. I was a big Vitali fan, but I don't think he was even in the same league as Lewis skills-wise and imo was on his way to being stopped before the cut ended their fight. If they had met prime for prime, Lewis would have dealt with him relatively easily.

[daviddee]

Lewis had completely gassed.. As for the stronger punches he was being rocked every time Vitali hit him.. He was using the inside of his glove and his head.. He knew Vitali had the beating of him that why he retired.. It was such a shock retiring he had 2-3 years left. In saying that he done the right thing as people still think he would of beat Vitali..

[crusader]

Prime for prime, Tyson would have annihilated Wlad, as would nearly all of the top heavyweights from various eras.

Vitali would have done better due to his chin and overall resilience, but still loses to the vast majority of them.

As for Tyson-Lewis prime for prime - that's a genuine 50/50 in my eyes. But, importantly for me, Lewis's prime came with a wealth of experience and knowledge, whereas Tyson's prime was extremely early. On that basis, I would shade the advantage to Lewis.

How do you think Vitali wouldve done against the ĺikes of John L. Sullivan, Rocky Marciano, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, Jack Johnson, Joe Walcott, Max Schmelling, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Floyd Patterson, and Michael Spinks?

[gilgamesh]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

Except Lennox Lewis

[daviddee]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

Except Lennox Lewis

I just watched the fight again with Lewis v Klitscho remember neither fighter is prime in this or in peak condition.. Klitscho improved everything after this fight.. I had scored it 5-1 in rounds to Klitscho so 59-55.. The stoppage is wrong and was to save the marquee name in Lewis.. He was done in the 6th and Vitali would of stopped him in the next couple of rounds imo.. The punch that may have caused the cut was the inside of Lewis's glove can see on the replay the glove part hits behind the head.. no cut appears to open until after the head butt in saying that very hard to tell.. Lewis was very very lucky to get that win and the crowds reaction at the end tells the. Story of the fight.. The US fans loved Lewis

[daviddee]

Here's the link to the fight

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=alzu9t1CmRM

[asdfjkl]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

What about Lennox Lewis?

Vitali was one of the toughest heavyweights I've seen and would give anyone a tough fight but he doesn't have the skills to be up there with the greats.

If you look at that fight you would have known that Vitali had like 85% chance of winning. He had a better chin, better stamina, more strength, a faster reaction time, similar size, name it. Lennox was very lucky he managed to cut Vitali open. That was pure luck, it weren't even hard punches. I think that if you could do the same match over like a 100 times, Vitali would have won like at least 85 of them.

[asdfjkl]

Funnily enough I had a discussion today about this and I believe Vitali would beat any boxer in history..

Except Lennox Lewis

Who lost against Oliver McCall.

[asdfjkl]

Prime for prime, Tyson would have annihilated Wlad, as would nearly all of the top heavyweights from various eras.

Vitali would have done better due to his chin and overall resilience, but still loses to the vast majority of them.

As for Tyson-Lewis prime for prime - that's a genuine 50/50 in my eyes. But, importantly for me, Lewis's prime came with a wealth of experience and knowledge, whereas Tyson's prime was extremely early. On that basis, I would shade the advantage to Lewis.

How do you think Vitali wouldve done against the ĺikes of John L. Sullivan, Rocky Marciano, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, Jack Johnson, Joe Walcott, Max Schmelling, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Floyd Patterson, and Michael Spinks?

Easy victories, you have to realise that many of them weren't even close near the cruiserweight limits of nowadays. Rocky Marciano wasn't even 6ft! You can't compare that time era to nowadays standards.

[Autobarn]

Lewis had completely gassed.. As for the stronger punches he was being rocked every time Vitali hit him.. He was using the inside of his glove and his head.. He knew Vitali had the beating of him that why he retired.. It was such a shock retiring he had 2-3 years left. In saying that he done the right thing as people still think he would of beat Vitali..

Lewis was 38, undermotivated, out of shape and had trained to face the soft Kirk Johnson, who had pulled out.

It was one of boxkng's great accidents, facing each other at the wrong time with the wrong preparation, and turned into a wild war between two future Hall of Famers, two genuine super heavyweights, Foreman v Lyle without the knockdowns.

Lennox overcame the reach disadvantage and several rocky moments to grit it out versus Vitali. The fight was slowing down and Lennox's power shots were being driven home, with pretty awesome force and Vitali was starting to look vulnerable. He took the right uppercut well but I'm not sure how many more, before the cut. I had the feeling that Vitali's pecking shots were going to mean very little, had the fight gone into the later stages. It he deserves credit for coming into the fight fully fit, as fully prepared as you can be to face Lewis at late notice for the undisputed heavyweight title, and for troubling Lennox with those long shots, and for actually initiating the hard exchanges.

[Frazier71]

The 70s heavyweights would dominate today

[lillywhite14]

Lewis had completely gassed.. As for the stronger punches he was being rocked every time Vitali hit him.. He was using the inside of his glove and his head.. He knew Vitali had the beating of him that why he retired.. It was such a shock retiring he had 2-3 years left. In saying that he done the right thing as people still think he would of beat Vitali..

Lewis was 38, undermotivated, out of shape and had trained to face the soft Kirk Johnson, who had pulled out.

It was one of boxkng's great accidents, facing each other at the wrong time with the wrong preparation, and turned into a wild war between two future Hall of Famers, two genuine super heavyweights, Foreman v Lyle without the knockdowns.

Lennox overcame the reach disadvantage and several rocky moments to grit it out versus Vitali. The fight was slowing down and Lennox's power shots were being driven home, with pretty awesome force and Vitali was starting to look vulnerable. He took the right uppercut well but I'm not sure how many more, before the cut. I had the feeling that Vitali's pecking shots were going to mean very little, had the fight gone into the later stages. It he deserves credit for coming into the fight fully fit, as fully prepared as you can be to face Lewis at late notice for the undisputed heavyweight title, and for troubling Lennox with those long shots, and for actually initiating the hard exchanges.

Vitali has admitted he knew he was being lined up as the next after Johnson and the possible replacement if anything went wrong with Johnson a while before the fight took place.

He gave a great performance but as already discussed above, and many times before, and even in the footage above if anyone cares to watch it again, Lewis had him. Lennox was never going to be ground down by anyone. Your chance of beating him was with big, unseen single shots. Vitali wasn't going to stop him past 6/7 rounds. Nothing in Lennox's career suggests that would have happened, even if he was old and fat by that stage. Vitali had already hit him with everything he had and Lewis was not only still in there, he had been at his best in the fight in the previous 2/3 rounds.

I think the quote above saying Vitali was tough as anything but lacked the skill to mix with the elite is spot on. He would be effective against elite level boxers with questionable punch resistance but someone like Lewis, Holmes, Ali and co, guys who had the skills and the chin/toughness to take his shots, would always beat him. Holyfield on his best night takes him, as would Bowe. Wlad had more skill, was a better boxer and carried more power, but his chin would let him down against big bro. Put Vitali's chin and punch resistance on Wlad and you have a real beast of a heavyweight, that's for sure!