The WELTERWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[Crease]

You're the boss.

All of us are "the boss". We aint got a leader & we don't need one.

Yes boss.

[Crease]

I will update the scoreboard tomorrow.

[Keko]

I will update the scoreboard tomorrow.

Ok boss

[Techno89]

My top ten is:

1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Sugar Ray Leonard
4.Barney Ross
5.Emile Griffith
6.Thomas Hearns
7.Emile Griffith
8.Floyd Mayweather Jr
9.Kid Gavilan
10.Roberto Duran

You pucked Griffith twice...
(As Seamus already pointed out)

My Bad

Emile Griffith is number 5
Number 7 is Jose Napoles

[Crease]

My Bad
Emile Griffith is number 5
Number 7 is Jose Napoles

I will update tomorrow, been busy over the past 3 days.

[APerno]

Since Crease is ‘busy’ I am going to jump ahead. – I am having a very difficult time assembling my lightweights. – Too many great fighters, too many! – Leonard and Duran at the top, that is obvious, or so everyone says it is; I wonder if we will.

I move that we extend the scoring (for lightweights) to the top twenty. The scoring is all relative anyway.

Can I get a second? If not, at least can I get an amen to my dilemma. Too many great lightweights!

Oh! And way too many fighters at the junior and super lightweight level; I am not sure what weight class to enter them in: E.g. Julio Caesar Chavez?

Oh again, and what of Arron Pryor?

[davie]

Since Crease is ‘busy’ I am going to jump ahead. – I am having a very difficult time assembling my lightweights. – Too many great fighters, too many! – Leonard and Duran at the top, that is obvious, or so everyone says it is; I wonder if we will.

I move that we extend the scoring (for lightweights) to the top twenty. The scoring is all relative anyway.

Can I get a second? If not, at least can I get an amen to my dilemma. Too many great lightweights!

Oh! And way too many fighters at the junior and super lightweight level; I am not sure what weight class to enter them in: E.g. Julio Caesar Chavez?

Oh again, and what of Arron Pryor?

I could quite comfortably have gone to 20 in the WW and MW thread

I think we best stick to 10.

Part of the challenge is who to leave out, ultimately the guys you are ranking 12th or 17th aren't going to be the guys fighting it out for top 3 dominance

[Crease]

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Leonard
4 Tommy Hearns
5 Floyd Mayweather Jr
6 Barbados Joe Walcott
7 Kid Gavilan
8 Pernell Whitaker
9 Jimmy McLarnin
10 Manny Pacquaio

[Seamus]

Tito leads Oscar 5 pts to 1

[davie]

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Leonard
4 Tommy Hearns
5 Floyd Mayweather Jr
6 Barbados Joe Walcott
7 Kid Gavilan
8 Pernell Whitaker
9 Jimmy McLarnin
10 Manny Pacquaio

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one
I wouldn't say that any of the names you listed don't deserve to be there, great fighters every one
but I can picture a welterweight list without either of these guys, let alone both being missing
It would be like leaving Monzon and Hagler out of a middle weight list to me

[Crease]

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one

Either bold or deliberarely stupid.
It's just neither of them are amongst my favourite fighters, yet looking at the scoreboard at this late stage - both of their places in our top 10 are all but guaranteed.

I just wanted to distribute some points to some fighters that i enjoyed watching.

[davie]

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one

Either bold or deliberarely stupid.
It's just neither of them are amongst my favourite fighters, yet looking at the scoreboard at this late stage - both of their places in our top 10 are all but guaranteed.

I just wanted to distribute some points to some fighters that i enjoyed watching.

It's your list mate, as I said, all great fighters

I just couldn't see a way to exclude them, 2 of the first names on my list, both shoe ins.

For all the difficulty I had leaving some out and re-shuffling lists, dropping these 2 was never a consideration

[elmersalsa]

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Leonard
4 Tommy Hearns
5 Floyd Mayweather Jr
6 Barbados Joe Walcott
7 Kid Gavilan
8 Pernell Whitaker
9 Jimmy McLarnin
10 Manny Pacquaio

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one
I wouldn't say that any of the names you listed don't deserve to be there, great fighters every one
but I can picture a welterweight list without either of these guys, let alone both being missing
It would be like leaving Monzon and Hagler out of a middle weight list to me

It's like putting out Joe Frazier and George Foreman off the all time heavyweight list, right?

[Keko]

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Leonard
4 Tommy Hearns
5 Floyd Mayweather Jr
6 Barbados Joe Walcott
7 Kid Gavilan
8 Pernell Whitaker
9 Jimmy McLarnin
10 Manny Pacquaio

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one
I wouldn't say that any of the names you listed don't deserve to be there, great fighters every one
but I can picture a welterweight list without either of these guys, let alone both being missing
It would be like leaving Monzon and Hagler out of a middle weight list to me

It's like putting out Joe Frazier and George Foreman off the all time heavyweight list, right?

A good example.

[keithmoonhangover]

I'm looking forward the 80's Cruiserweight game. Ivy Brown and ST Gordon are legends of the weight class.

[Tomasino]

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Leonard
4 Tommy Hearns
5 Floyd Mayweather Jr
6 Barbados Joe Walcott
7 Kid Gavilan
8 Pernell Whitaker
9 Jimmy McLarnin
10 Manny Pacquaio

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one
I wouldn't say that any of the names you listed don't deserve to be there, great fighters every one
but I can picture a welterweight list without either of these guys, let alone both being missing
It would be like leaving Monzon and Hagler out of a middle weight list to me

I thought leaving Barbados Joe and Mickey Walker out was bold

[davie]

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Leonard
4 Tommy Hearns
5 Floyd Mayweather Jr
6 Barbados Joe Walcott
7 Kid Gavilan
8 Pernell Whitaker
9 Jimmy McLarnin
10 Manny Pacquaio

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one
I wouldn't say that any of the names you listed don't deserve to be there, great fighters every one
but I can picture a welterweight list without either of these guys, let alone both being missing
It would be like leaving Monzon and Hagler out of a middle weight list to me

I thought leaving Barbados Joe and Mickey Walker out was bold

Someone had to make way for Emile and Jose

[Tomasino]

The exclusion of both Napoles and Griffiths is a bold one
I wouldn't say that any of the names you listed don't deserve to be there, great fighters every one
but I can picture a welterweight list without either of these guys, let alone both being missing
It would be like leaving Monzon and Hagler out of a middle weight list to me

I thought leaving Barbados Joe and Mickey Walker out was bold

Someone had to make way for Emile and Jose

I didn't have Ross or Mclarnin

[Keko]

Tito leads Oscar 5 pts to 1

It's amazing that they have that point.

It would be interesting to see that the list of the top 25 and who would then of them had the advantage.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Welts are even more scattered than the middles, so my top guys are kicking butts and taking names:

1. The Real Sugar Ray, Robinson
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Emile Griffith
4. Aaron Pryor
5. Antonio Margarito
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Barney Ross
9. Mickey Walker, and as much as I'd like to include Sam Langford, he was too unfinished, and Duran barely had a pass at the division, so,
10.Jose Naples.

Manny as soon as he moved to feather and beyond, his fight weights were well over the traditional 135 lb lightweight limit, and in this frame he fought the most of the toughest competition ever rated, officially x P4Pers in 14 fights, often back to back or even back to back to back. I also thinks he beats most on this list by the time he moved officially to the modern welterweight division. When he couldn't knock em out, he knocked em down and robbed a couple of times of legit KOs by 14-15 count dirty/ idiot refs. Emile maybe the perfect blend of natural attributes and skills for this division and the heart of a lion.

Aaron a bit of a wildcard/wildman type, but a 11-0 title record and enough boxing nuance to outbox Hearns and Arguello when needed, he too beats most welts in history and sports a supposed all time p4per ducking him in the notorious banquet retirement announcement.

Yessss, Marg Ring rated every week for over 10 consecutive years and the prototypical MONSTER that half the division ducked including you know who TUE, and I don't use ducking lightly like most here do. Marg could be outboxed as Cotto showed, but he could not be denied. 21 years old and whooped a prime aged, fast, powerful southpaw Sergio Martinez like he ain't never had before or since who would go on to the Jrmid/mid belts and likely HOF. Set the all time record for punches thrown against a very tough Clottey, 1675 over 12 rds. By the time of Mosley, he was 2 weeks off emergency eye surgery and couldn't spar or train. He could only diet, thus the wraps incident taking place in plain view of the commish inspector who likely stood off for the expected Brotha Naz bust, a big drama effect that let the major players know Marg weren't right so they could cover their bets before the fight.

Henry's record cannot be denied, but his style was a war of attrition without much dimension as a little guy needing more against the really good prime welts. He only held the title 2 years against less than stellar comp even though the most active welter champ in history during that span. And, no, that 10 rd California sanctioned middle title bout against Cerefino Garcia about as valid as EBU fight today. Gavilan, Ross, Walker, and Naples just names to me. My top guys beat them in any series and welcome those types of series.

The lightweights are where the biggest scrap is, so I expect to rate Henry again.

[Crease]

I will update the last list over the next day or two.

But Sugar Ray Robinson is the true and clear Number One for our Welterweights...

Lightweights will be up next.

See you all in a few days, Happy New Year to you all...

[Kalan]

1. SRR
2 SRL
3 Emile Griffith
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Tommy Hearns
6 Jose Napoles
7 Barney Ross
8 Pernel Whitaker
9 Jimmy Mclarnin
10 FMJr

Errol Spence would beat all those guys.. Too brutally strong and savage.. Armstrong didn't make much of a Welterweight. He did nothing but survive against Robinson. Whitaker was easily beaten by Felix Trinidad because he was a feather hitter.. Barney Ross was a really light hitter as well and a natural 135-pounder.. How can you rank McLarnin, Ross, and Armstrong over Floyd Mayweather??? They all got hit a lot -- Floyd not too much.

[elmersalsa]

1. SRR
2 SRL
3 Emile Griffith
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Tommy Hearns
6 Jose Napoles
7 Barney Ross
8 Pernel Whitaker
9 Jimmy Mclarnin
10 FMJr

Errol Spence would beat all those guys.. Too brutally strong and savage.. Armstrong didn't make much of a Welterweight. He did nothing but survive against Robinson. Whitaker was easily beaten by Felix Trinidad because he was a feather hitter.. Barney Ross was a really light hitter as well and a natural 135-pounder.. How can you rank McLarnin, Ross, and Armstrong over Floyd Mayweather??? They all got hit a lot -- Floyd not too much.

And who is Errol Spence, Kalan?

[elmersalsa]

- Welts are even more scattered than the middles, so my top guys are kicking butts and taking names:

1. The Real Sugar Ray, Robinson
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Emile Griffith
4. Aaron Pryor
5. Antonio Margarito
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Barney Ross
9. Mickey Walker, and as much as I'd like to include Sam Langford, he was too unfinished, and Duran barely had a pass at the division, so,
10.Jose Naples.

Manny as soon as he moved to feather and beyond, his fight weights were well over the traditional 135 lb lightweight limit, and in this frame he fought the most of the toughest competition ever rated, officially x P4Pers in 14 fights, often back to back or even back to back to back. I also thinks he beats most on this list by the time he moved officially to the modern welterweight division. When he couldn't knock em out, he knocked em down and robbed a couple of times of legit KOs by 14-15 count dirty/ idiot refs. Emile maybe the perfect blend of natural attributes and skills for this division and the heart of a lion.

Aaron a bit of a wildcard/wildman type, but a 11-0 title record and enough boxing nuance to outbox Hearns and Arguello when needed, he too beats most welts in history and sports a supposed all time p4per ducking him in the notorious banquet retirement announcement.

Yessss, Marg Ring rated every week for over 10 consecutive years and the prototypical MONSTER that half the division ducked including you know who TUE, and I don't use ducking lightly like most here do. Marg could be outboxed as Cotto showed, but he could not be denied. 21 years old and whooped a prime aged, fast, powerful southpaw Sergio Martinez like he ain't never had before or since who would go on to the Jrmid/mid belts and likely HOF. Set the all time record for punches thrown against a very tough Clottey, 1675 over 12 rds. By the time of Mosley, he was 2 weeks off emergency eye surgery and couldn't spar or train. He could only diet, thus the wraps incident taking place in plain view of the commish inspector who likely stood off for the expected Brotha Naz bust, a big drama effect that let the major players know Marg weren't right so they could cover their bets before the fight.

Henry's record cannot be denied, but his style was a war of attrition without much dimension as a little guy needing more against the really good prime welts. He only held the title 2 years against less than stellar comp even though the most active welter champ in history during that span. And, no, that 10 rd California sanctioned middle title bout against Cerefino Garcia about as valid as EBU fight today. Gavilan, Ross, Walker, and Naples just names to me. My top guys beat them in any series and welcome those types of series.

The lightweights are where the biggest scrap is, so I expect to rate Henry again.

And when the great Aaron Pryor was ever a welterweight in his prime?
Antonio Margarito? Are you playing with our intelligence?
And no Sugar Ray Leonard in the welterweight ranks, but you got the great Roberto Duran? I love Duran, but he wasn't a top 10 welterweight in my view. Not too many fights there to begin with.

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

Since Crease is ‘busy’ I am going to jump ahead. – I am having a very difficult time assembling my lightweights. – Too many great fighters, too many! – Leonard and Duran at the top, that is obvious, or so everyone says it is; I wonder if we will.

I move that we extend the scoring (for lightweights) to the top twenty. The scoring is all relative anyway.

Can I get a second? If not, at least can I get an amen to my dilemma. Too many great lightweights!

Oh! And way too many fighters at the junior and super lightweight level; I am not sure what weight class to enter them in: E.g. Julio Caesar Chavez?

Oh again, and what of Arron Pryor?

You can get an amen at least. You've got 15 or more of the best WW candidates, more than half of whom were better at 135lbs. On top of that you have the likes of B Leonard, Gans, Angott, Ambers, Williams, Canzoneri, Chavez, Arguello etc etc etc.

Should really make a start on my list now TBH.