The Greatest Middleweight ever?

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 08 Mar 2006, 13:15

Following Joe Calzaghe's impressive victory over Jeff Lacy, I'm wondering who you people will place a s the greatest middleweight of all time.

(Note that these include Light M's and Super Ms').

Please place your vote for the greatest middleweight and list your top 5.

Sugar Ray Robinson
"Marvelous" Marvin Hagler
"Hitman" Thomas Hearns
Bernard Hopkins
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Oscar De La Hoya
Felix Trinidad
Rocky Graziano
Carmen Basillio
Randy Turpin
Jake Lamotta
Gene Gullmer
Carl Olson

I know they all fought at differnet weights, but try and remember them fighting as middleweights...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Mar 2006, 14:19

What about Harry Greb, Stanley Ketchel and Carlos Monzon?... each could claim to be number 1 Middleweight... especially Greb and Monzon....

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 08 Mar 2006, 14:24

Hagler....I'm biased though. (Honestly, I'm kidding, I have to say SRR here)

However, I do feel that if he fought Leonard in his prime, Hagler dominates the fight. I truly don't believe that Leonard did enough to beat Hagler the first time, as fighting the last 15 seconds of each round and comboing the other guys arms and elbows aren't landed punches. Also, the pro-Leonard crowd going nuts every time he breathed didn't help Hagler either. If Hagler wins that fight, he's a lock at #2, where since he didn't, you can pretty much lump him and Monzon together.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Mar 2006, 16:28

Robinson
Hagler
Monzon
Greb
Ketchel.

De La Hoya??!!! Give me a break!

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 08 Mar 2006, 17:19

What a surprise! In this list we see the names of Calzaghe and Lacy, Olson, Trinidad, Gene Fullmer, but not the greatest: Stanley Ketchell, Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Carlos Monzón, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jack (Nonpareil) Dempsey, Tommy Ryan, Tiger Flowers, or most recently Dick Tiger, Emile Griffith and Nino Benvenuti; as Silkov, I put "What about..."

:)

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 08 Mar 2006, 17:31

MightyWarrior I think I'll go with your list. Looks good to me. But how on earth has Crease not put Monzon, Greb and Ketchel on his list? I think he needs to do a bit more study! Hearns shouldn't be that high! No way. I'm not saying Hearns is over-rated, he was a great fighter, but he's not one of my favorites, certainly not a legend. I would back quite a few fighters to beat him including some of the good Brits of the 90's.

As for the Leonard/Hagler fight Hagler "won" but the crowd won it for Leonard!

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 08 Mar 2006, 17:35

Arsenal wrote:As for the Leonard/Hagler fight Hagler "won" but the crowd won it for Leonard!

Sad how judges can't believe what they see and base it on crowd reaction.

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 08 Mar 2006, 21:21

Despite the fact that Harry Greb wasn't a knockout
artist, he has one of the most incrediable career
records ever. Other fighters one had astounding
records are Willie Pep, Langford, and Sugar Ray
Robinson. Can you think of ANY current fighters
who fought a fraction of the number of capable
fighters?

- Chuck Johnston

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 08 Mar 2006, 21:41

1.) Harry Greb was the best, by a very close margin

2.) Sugar Ray Robinson was the second best, cus in my mind he was a better Welterweight

3.) Carlos Monzon

4.) Marvelous Marvin Hagler

5.) Jake LaMotta

That's my top 5

barry · Post by **barry** » 08 Mar 2006, 21:44

The fact that Calzaghe beat Lacy has no bearing at all on the greatest middleweights as either would be lucky to make top 50, in Lacy's case top 100!!

Harry Greb, Stanley Ketchel, Mickey Walker, Ray Robinson, Marvin Hagler and Carlos Monzon...all could be number one with good argument. Personally, I thinkGreb fits the bill best at 160!

The Scranton Assassin · Post by **The Scranton Assassin** » 09 Mar 2006, 01:40

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:1.) Harry Greb was the best, by a very close margin

2.) Sugar Ray Robinson was the second best, cus in my mind he was a better Welterweight

3.) Carlos Monzon

4.) Marvelous Marvin Hagler

5.) Jake LaMotta

That's my top 5

That list is exactly the same as mine at 160. Whats your next five?

mine is:

6.) Stanley Ketchel

7.)Marcel Cerdan

8.) Tiger Flowers

9.)Tony Zale

10.)Mickey Walker

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 09 Mar 2006, 06:26

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Harry Greb
4. Ray Robinson
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Mickey Walker
8. Roy Jones
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Charley Burley

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 09 Mar 2006, 08:23

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Ray Robinson
4. Harry Greb
5. Stanley Ketchel

All of these men could be argued as the greatest MW of all time.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 09 Mar 2006, 08:39

I think top 5/6 is pretty much the same for everyone its after that it gets more varied.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 10 Mar 2006, 10:36

1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Robinson
4. Greb (a lot of his work was done while he was technically a light heavyweight)

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 10 Mar 2006, 15:17

Robinson
Hagler
Greb
Monzon
LaMotta

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 10 Mar 2006, 15:23

sockdollanger wrote:1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Ray Robinson
4. Harry Greb
5. Stanley Ketchel

All of these men could be argued as the greatest MW of all time.

I agree. I would maybe swap Hagler and Monzon but like you say all these five are pretty much interchangable to my mind.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 10 Mar 2006, 23:49

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Jake LaMotta
5. Carmen Basilio

jyuza · Post by **jyuza** » 11 Mar 2006, 05:57

De La Hoya didn't deserve to be in the list.
He lost the 2 fights he got at 160

Here is mine :

1. Monzon
2. Hagler
3. Robinson
4. Greb

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 13 Mar 2006, 06:12

Any discussion has to have Monzon, Hagler, Robinson and Greb in the frame. Any of those 4 could be the greatest MW of all-time.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 13 Mar 2006, 06:18

Decagon wrote:I don't think I've ever heard a good argument as to why Stanley Ketchell should be the #1 middleweight of all time. In all the film footage of him that exists, he looks unskilled, compared to Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Robinson. His record pales in comparison to Harry Greb's.

Stanley Ketchel was an all-time great middleweight, which middleweight ever beat him in his prime that didnt foul him? He also died when he was 24 so we never saw the best of him.

ManonFire · Post by **ManonFire** » 13 Mar 2006, 12:42

Is it true that Greb was blind in his right eye from 1921 onwards?

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 13 Mar 2006, 14:51

In fairness to Stanley Ketchell, he did beat some of the
best fighters active at the time, including Philadelphia
Jack O'Brien, Billy Papke, Joe Thomas, and Jack
"Twin" Sullivan. It is possible that all of the mentioned
fighters were not that good compared to their more
modern counterparts, but that is a debate for another
thread.

- Chuck Johnston

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 14 Mar 2006, 02:19

Decagon wrote:
dr_devious wrote:
Decagon wrote:I don't think I've ever heard a good argument as to why Stanley Ketchell should be the #1 middleweight of all time. In all the film footage of him that exists, he looks unskilled, compared to Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Robinson. His record pales in comparison to Harry Greb's.
Stanley Ketchel was an all-time great middleweight, which middleweight ever beat him in his prime that didnt foul him? He also died when he was 24 so we never saw the best of him.
Sam Langford did, according to some research Barry did. He was crude, and the fighters he beat weren't much better. He's not like Carlos Monzon, who has wins over Bennie Brisco, Emile Griffith, Nino Benvenuti, Rodrigo Valdez and Jose Napoles.

ketchel-langford is very inconclusive.i think you know that as its been pointed out on numerous occasions and you go the other way when it suits your argument.besides sam was a top light heavy at the time.jack o'brien was highly skilled and ketchel defeated him more decisively than anyone jack ever faced.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 14 Mar 2006, 02:57

well if you can get the weights i'd be very interested as the ny times report refers to langford as a lightheavy.

The Greatest Middleweight ever?

The Greatest Middleweight ever?

Harry Greb

re

Re: Stanley Ketchell