BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- Welts are even more scattered than the middles, so my top guys are kicking butts and taking names:
1. The Real Sugar Ray, Robinson
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Emile Griffith
4. Aaron Pryor
5. Antonio Margarito
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Barney Ross
9. Mickey Walker, and as much as I'd like to include Sam Langford, he was too unfinished, and Duran barely had a pass at the division, so,
10.Jose Naples.
Manny as soon as he moved to feather and beyond, his fight weights were well over the traditional 135 lb lightweight limit, and in this frame he fought the most of the toughest competition ever rated, officially x P4Pers in 14 fights, often back to back or even back to back to back. I also thinks he beats most on this list by the time he moved officially to the modern welterweight division. When he couldn't knock em out, he knocked em down and robbed a couple of times of legit KOs by 14-15 count dirty/ idiot refs. Emile maybe the perfect blend of natural attributes and skills for this division and the heart of a lion.
Aaron a bit of a wildcard/wildman type, but a 11-0 title record and enough boxing nuance to outbox Hearns and Arguello when needed, he too beats most welts in history and sports a supposed all time p4per ducking him in the notorious banquet retirement announcement.
Yessss, Marg Ring rated every week for over 10 consecutive years and the prototypical MONSTER that half the division ducked including you know who TUE, and I don't use ducking lightly like most here do. Marg could be outboxed as Cotto showed, but he could not be denied. 21 years old and whooped a prime aged, fast, powerful southpaw Sergio Martinez like he ain't never had before or since who would go on to the Jrmid/mid belts and likely HOF. Set the all time record for punches thrown against a very tough Clottey, 1675 over 12 rds. By the time of Mosley, he was 2 weeks off emergency eye surgery and couldn't spar or train. He could only diet, thus the wraps incident taking place in plain view of the commish inspector who likely stood off for the expected Brotha Naz bust, a big drama effect that let the major players know Marg weren't right so they could cover their bets before the fight.
Henry's record cannot be denied, but his style was a war of attrition without much dimension as a little guy needing more against the really good prime welts. He only held the title 2 years against less than stellar comp even though the most active welter champ in history during that span. And, no, that 10 rd California sanctioned middle title bout against Cerefino Garcia about as valid as EBU fight today. Gavilan, Ross, Walker, and Naples just names to me. My top guys beat them in any series and welcome those types of series.
The lightweights are where the biggest scrap is, so I expect to rate Henry again.
And when the great Aaron Pryor was ever a welterweight in his prime?
Antonio Margarito? Are you playing with our intelligence?
And no Sugar Ray Leonard in the welterweight ranks, but you got the great Roberto Duran? I love Duran, but he wasn't a top 10 welterweight in my view. Not too many fights there to begin with.
We should not even take seriously such lists.
Comedy.
Keko wrote:We should not even take seriously such lists.
Comedy.
On the plus side, the perceived slightly-eccentric lists don't have enough weight to make any significant change to our overall outcomes...
That should be the ultimate consolation for those flabbergasted by some of the picks.
Keko wrote:We should not even take seriously such lists.
Comedy.
On the plus side, the perceived slightly-eccentric lists don't have enough weight to make any significant change to our overall outcomes...
That should be the ultimate consolation for those flabbergasted by some of the picks.
Mr.Crease
Not having the list of top 10 WW Sugar Ray Leonard is really sad. That's why I do not take seriously such lists.
elmersalsa wrote:The list should switch the greats Kid Gavilan's and Thomas Hearns' positions.
Who do you think wins the head to head match?
The great Kid Gavilan. Much stronger physically and mentally. The Hitman's legs would failed him. I don't like Tommy here at 147lbs. Gavilan beats him late around between 12th and 15th rounds in a brutal affair, just like Leonard vs Hearns I.
elmersalsa wrote:The list should switch the greats Kid Gavilan's and Thomas Hearns' positions.
Who do you think wins the head to head match?
The great Kid Gavilan. Much stronger physically and mentally. The Hitman's legs would failed him. I don't like Tommy here at 147lbs. Gavilan beats him late around between 12th and 15th rounds in a brutal affair, just like Leonard vs Hearns I.
I think I rated Hearns too high, but I beleive he was capable of beating any 147lber on his night. It was close between him and the kid.
elmersalsa wrote:The list should switch the greats Kid Gavilan's and Thomas Hearns' positions.
Should?
The list shouldn't do anything
The people have spoken
deserves more points and there is no question
Does Barney Ross deserve to be above Napoles at WW, or Hearn?
I think the fact that he is currently sitting just about top 10 in the lightweight list probably explains why he didn't edge a little higher on the ww list.
Does Barney Ross deserve to be above Napoles at WW, or Hearn?
I think the fact that he is currently sitting just about top 10 in the lightweight list probably explains why he didn't edge a little higher on the ww list.
Joint 5th all time is no disgrace.
Ross certainly belongs to the top 5 after the results of a real Hearns does not belong to the top 10th.
Gavilan was also excellent ww and the place he deserved in the top 10th or better.
Put it this way, Ross doesn't come close to the top 3, he shouldn't be above Griffith IMO, the poll has stated pretty clearly that the top 4 are pretty much set in stone, so 5th is the best we can expect for him....
He is 5th!
He just happens to be sharing the spot with a couple of very good fighters
elmersalsa wrote:The list should switch the greats Kid Gavilan's and Thomas Hearns' positions.
Should?
The list shouldn't do anything
The people have spoken
That doesn't mean we really knew the subject. Many just voted with eyes closed. One voted for the great Aaron Pryor for crying out loud! In the same list, the great Sugar Ray Leonard was not even there.
The great Thomas "The Hitman" Hearns didn't do enough at welterweight to be in the 5th place.
The great Kid Gavilan was severely OVERLOOKED. He is easily a top 5 all time welterweight. I believe that he should have been #3.
In my view, the greats Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan and Emile Griffith were better welterweight boxers than the great Sugar Ray Leonard. They had longer careers, more time at the top, more championship bouts, and beat more real welterweight boxers.
It's that so many in here are so enamored with American boxers that the others don't get real attention. Example: Griffith, Gavilan, Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles and Barbados Joe Walcott.
How in the world The Hitman was better than those 5 mentioned above? It's ridiculous!
