Calzaghe beats a hand-selected, over-hyped opponent. So... ?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 09 Mar 2006, 21:49

Good to see such talent has good taste in music too.

Too many rap ring entrances.

jeej · Post by **jeej** » 09 Mar 2006, 22:07

On a sort of similar note, Fight Night round 2 on Xbox really pisses me off with its whole bling bling attitude. I crave more realism. Anyway, I'll stop now, I haven't played the latest version and this is all going a bit off topic!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 09 Mar 2006, 22:22

Why does CYber Boxing Zone think that Girard used to be the former Lineal super middleweight champ?

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/champ.htm

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 10 Mar 2006, 10:22

fist wrote:
pundit wrote:
silkov wrote:I wonder why nobody has locked this crappy anti-Calzaghe thread while many pro-Calzaghe threads seem to have mysteriously disapeared!!?.... 8)
Because - in contrast to the other ones - THIS thread is based on pure boxing knowledge...
P
What an embarrasing cock u really are pundit. I have never heard such rubbish in all my life. God knows why you are intersted in boxing becos I have never known a more blinkered, biased, ignorant and inaccurate account of a fighter in my whole life. You must be literally out of this world, perhaps mentally ill, cos the crazy crap you are coming out with should definately not ever be mentoned

Sorry this hurts your feelings.

TheFightGame · Post by **TheFightGame** » 11 Mar 2006, 08:36

[quote="pundit"]Let's move things into perspective - the pure joy of arguing may have gotten me to overshoot the target here or there.

Calzaghe's win over Lacy was very impressive. Not only did he display his usual strenghts - handspeed, determination, chin, stamina - but he also showed a degree of accuracy that we hadn't seen before, plus he fought less flat-footed than in the past. A fine win that showed yet again Calzaghe's potential as a classy fighter.

This said, the Lacy-win is nowhere near enough to elevate Calzaghe to pfp-status. For this Lacy was too taylor-made - and I said this before the fight, not only thereafter. Strong but immobile and rather slow, exactly the kind of fighter where Calzaghe can maximize the impact of his amazing handspeed.

For me Calzaghe needs to prove - and the Lacy fight didn't change this- that he can also win when his opponent's stye does NOT suit him. Fight a classy evasive counter-puncher. Calzaghe hasn't done so in his entire career.

And what better opponent would there be than the gifted WBA-champ Mike Kessler. Take my word for it: if Calzaghe takes on and beats Kessler - he doesn't need a shoot-out like on Saturday, a solid win would be entirely enough - he'll get all respect in the world from me. In fact, even a narrow loss would increase my respect for the Welshman.

P[/quote]

So by that rationale you did'nt rate Mike Tyson nor Kostya Tszyu seeing as they both had major problems when they faced fighters unsuited to their style (Buster Douglas, Holyfield; Vince Phillips, Ricky Hatton)? Apart from those last two names, who did Kostya beat who marched forward and pressured him, (thus not allowing him to get full extension on his right cross, which is where the real venom was)? So would you say Kostya was'nt "world class", or a contender for "pfp best", because every one of his opponents was "taylor-made" for his style insofar as they tried to fight him off the back foot?

And secondly, you frequently mention Kessler, but if Calzaghe fought and beat Kessler, you would just bring up another name and carry on "why don't he fight Mr X?" etc, etc.

I myself am no fan of Calzaghe, but his victory was fantastic; and I know a hater when I smell one.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 11 Mar 2006, 11:46

spam wrote: So by that rationale you did'nt rate Mike Tyson nor Kostya Tszyu seeing as they both had major problems when they faced fighters unsuited to their style (Buster Douglas, Holyfield; Vince Phillips, Ricky Hatton)? Apart from those last two names, who did Kostya beat who marched forward and pressured him, (thus not allowing him to get full extension on his right cross, which is where the real venom was)? So would you say Kostya was'nt "world class", or a contender for "pfp best", because every one of his opponents was "taylor-made" for his style insofar as they tried to fight him off the back foot?

Tzsyu fought much better competition over all than Calzaghe. No comparison

And secondly, you frequently mention Kessler, but if Calzaghe fought and beat Kessler, you would just bring up another name and carry on "why don't he fight Mr X?" etc, etc.

No I wouldn't.

Cheers, P

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 11 Mar 2006, 12:54

Pundit really has mugged himself off here...AGAIN.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 11 Mar 2006, 14:07

Hardhitters11 wrote:Pundit really has mugged himself off here...AGAIN.

Sour loser.
P

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 11 Mar 2006, 20:38

He just wishes he was Calzaghe really.

TheFightGame · Post by **TheFightGame** » 12 Mar 2006, 08:22

Tszyu did indeed fight "better competition over all", but my point is that they were still "taylor-made" for HIS style of fighting, i.e., that he liked an opponent to stand back so he could set up that straight right. He was also partial to knocking out southpaws. I'm not saying they were not good fighters, nor that his opponents were'nt overall better than Calzaghe's; but they were taylor-made for his style. Fighting opponents who are taylor-made for a style does not exclude a fighter from world-class rating.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 12 Mar 2006, 12:17

spam wrote:Tszyu did indeed fight "better competition over all", but my point is that they were still "taylor-made" for HIS style of fighting, i.e., that he liked an opponent to stand back so he could set up that straight right. He was also partial to knocking out southpaws. I'm not saying they were not good fighters, nor that his opponents were'nt overall better than Calzaghe's; but they were taylor-made for his style. Fighting opponents who are taylor-made for a style does not exclude a fighter from world-class rating.

I just don't see this. Tzsyu took on whoever had earned a shot, and he always was after unifyting belts. Look at his past 7 opponents: Mitchell-Urkal-Judah-Tackie-Leija-Mitchell-Hatton. Not a single underserving opponent. Also there is no obvious challenge that who would be absent from that list. Thus it's unclear who he is supposed to have avoided because he wouldn't have fit his style. And of course: he took on Hatton.

In the case of Calzaghe, there were plentiful evasive counterpunchers over the years who would have been deserving of a shot - certainly more deserving than the Evan Ashira's and Mgry Mgrhydahcytians - but Calzaghe avoided all of them.

Cheers, P

TheFightGame · Post by **TheFightGame** » 12 Mar 2006, 13:38

The last thing I mean is that Tszyu's opponents were no good or undeserving. Not at all. Kostya is one of my fave fighters ever, and I am not trying to say he dodged anyone. What I am saying is that the only times he faced a fighter who put him under pressure and did'nt allow him to set up his big right, he struggled. Because that was his achilles heel; he did'nt like pressure fighters. Even the mediocre Diosbelys Hurtado (spelling?) gave him some trouble by pressuring him. If a fighter tried to fight Tszyu off the back foot they gave him the space and time his style required, and they got knocked out. Not because they were bums, but because Tszyu was such a hard hitter. You list the names of his last seven opponents and they are all good fighters, none of them undeserving; but tell me which one of them fought Kostya in a way that was'nt taylor-made for him? Every one of them tried to fight him from the outside; except for Vince Phillips and Ricky Hatton, who both beat him.

I'm just saying that an opponent's style being "taylor-made" for a fighter is often a measure of how good that fighter is, rather than of how poor the opposition.

DG. · Post by **DG.** » 12 Mar 2006, 14:22

pundit wrote:
Hardhitters11 wrote:Pundit really has mugged himself off here...AGAIN.
Sour loser.
P

Is 'Pundit' Latin for Bitch?.

fist · Post by **fist** » 12 Mar 2006, 15:18

Nope its Latin for imbecile.

RJJ's comment on Calzaghe's achievement, very telling about the impact he has had on boxing and America.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 12 Mar 2006, 18:31

DG. wrote:
pundit wrote:
Hardhitters11 wrote:Pundit really has mugged himself off here...AGAIN.
Sour loser.
P
Is 'Pundit' Latin for Bitch?.

Purchase a dictionary.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 12 Mar 2006, 18:34

fist wrote:Nope its Latin for imbecile.

RJJ's comment on Calzaghe's achievement, very telling about the impact he has had on boxing and America.

Realizing that Calzaghe's victory doesn't mean much because Lacy was an overhyped, limited opponent must have hurt your brittle feelings deeply....

Poor fellow; the simple truth is too much for you to take. Which is: beating up third-rate opposition doesn't make one first-rate.

Cheers, P

fist · Post by **fist** » 13 Mar 2006, 15:38

pundit wrote:
fist wrote:Nope its Latin for imbecile.

RJJ's comment on Calzaghe's achievement, very telling about the impact he has had on boxing and America.
Realizing that Calzaghe's victory doesn't mean much because Lacy was an overhyped, limited opponent must have hurt your brittle feelings deeply....

Poor fellow; the simple truth is too much for you to take. Which is: beating up third-rate opposition doesn't make one first-rate.

Cheers, P

Very childish, yet it explains the jealousy and anger you felt when Calzaghe proved to the world he is the best at Super Middlewieght.

As for Lacy being third rate, thats a very silly thing to say. Even your man Kessler disagrees with you on that. He rated Lacy and edged towards him when asked who he felt would win between Lacy and Joe.

Your a silly silly man.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 13 Mar 2006, 15:47

fist wrote:
pundit wrote:
fist wrote:Nope its Latin for imbecile.

RJJ's comment on Calzaghe's achievement, very telling about the impact he has had on boxing and America.
Realizing that Calzaghe's victory doesn't mean much because Lacy was an overhyped, limited opponent must have hurt your brittle feelings deeply....

Poor fellow; the simple truth is too much for you to take. Which is: beating up third-rate opposition doesn't make one first-rate.

Cheers, P
Very childish, yet it explains the jealousy and anger you felt when Calzaghe proved to the world he is the best at Super Middlewieght.

As for Lacy being third rate, thats a very silly thing to say. Even your man Kessler disagrees with you on that. He rated Lacy and edged towards him when asked who he felt would win between Lacy and Joe.

Your a silly silly man.

Yawn.

Please notify when your parrot-teacher tought you a new sentence.

P

dumdane · Post by **dumdane** » 13 Mar 2006, 17:29

fist wrote:As for Lacy being third rate, thats a very silly thing to say. Even your man Kessler disagrees with you on that. He rated Lacy and edged towards him when asked who he felt would win between Lacy and Joe.

If think you are wrong on this one at least. Just prior to the fight (where Kessler was ringside) He said that IF Calzaghe could survive the first 6 rounds he was likely to win it. THEN he finished saying he actually had Calzaghe as the overall favourite.

The exact quote can probably be looked up in prefight prediction threads here or in other sites. But i'm actually quite certain about the message.

...and for the record. Pundit is not the only one thinking Kessler would stand a good chance against Calzaghe.

To say it is ridiculous to even suggest that, is a bit .....ridiculous.

fist · Post by **fist** » 13 Mar 2006, 17:42

Here is an interview with Kessler:

http://www.boxinginsider.com/news/stories/142551519.php

The interview illustrates the respect Kessler had for Lacy. Was pointing out to Pundit that Kessler rated Lacy higher than what Pundit (Kesslers biggest fan) did!

Pundit is the biggest joke on the forum.

fist · Post by **fist** » 13 Mar 2006, 17:51

dumdane wrote:
fist wrote:As for Lacy being third rate, thats a very silly thing to say. Even your man Kessler disagrees with you on that. He rated Lacy and edged towards him when asked who he felt would win between Lacy and Joe.
If think you are wrong on this one at least. Just prior to the fight (where Kessler was ringside) He said that IF Calzaghe could survive the first 6 rounds he was likely to win it. THEN he finished saying he actually had Calzaghe as the overall favourite.

The exact quote can probably be looked up in prefight prediction threads here or in other sites. But i'm actually quite certain about the message.

...and for the record. Pundit is not the only one thinking Kessler would stand a good chance against Calzaghe.

To say it is ridiculous to even suggest that, is a bit .....ridiculous.

"Kessler: So if Lacy can keep his mind clear of everything, and keep focused, I think he's going to win.

As for who Kessler rates as the best after him...

Boxinginsider: You've studied the other Super Middleweight champs, who is the best in your estimation?"

Mikkel Kessler: "Myself. Besides me, I think Lacy and Calzaghe's a good fighter too.

These comments from Kessler clearly indicated that he rated Lacy highly and edged towards him in terms of who would win, though he did give Joe his dues as he knew how well Joe fights. The bloke called Pundit has been deluding himself into thinking that Lacy was completely oevr-rated and that Joe proved nothing. Kessler who Pundit rates at the best SM in the world had a very different view. You would have thought the best SM in the world would make it his business to know who is world class and who isn't.

Here endeth the lesson.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 13 Mar 2006, 17:52

fist wrote:Here is an interview with Kessler:

http://www.boxinginsider.com/news/stories/142551519.php

The interview illustrates the respect Kessler had for Lacy. Was pointing out to Pundit that Kessler rated Lacy higher than what Pundit (Kesslers biggest fan) did!

Pundit is the biggest joke on the forum.

Wishful thinking of our forum-parrot.

For you record: Lacy was way overrated, and hence Calzaghe's victory doesn't mean much. Just another medicore slugger Calzaghe beat up, while avoiding the true challenges. In line with everything else he's done in the past 10 years.

Cheers, P

fist · Post by **fist** » 13 Mar 2006, 18:20

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 14 Mar 2006, 04:18

one way of thinking about it is Calzaghe is a clever southpaw with great speed and an imaginative repertoire. It's not exactly easy to fight southpaws, especially ones that can hit, when you're a guy who relies on power. just cos Lacy got handcuffed and beat up by a guy with 17 title fights worth of experience, who was still fresh, doesn't mean he's not any good. Look, Lacy was an undefeated title holder, busy, hungry, powerful and was At Least the #3 guy in a talent filled division. that was some achievement from Joe. don't knock it.

...i certainly wish Calzaghe had fought Ottke, as it would have made his body of work more complete. but you know, most Yanks totally ignore Ottke as a guy who 'got lucky' every fight - a total myth i know. it would've been a very good fight, but I think Joe would have stopped him. Look at the recent articles even at Maxboxing. those boys Probst and Rodriguez give him barely any credit for his skills, some good wins and load of title defenses...that doesn't mean Joe ducked Ottke. he seemed to buy into the Ottke myths and not take him seriously...

Hopefully they bring on Kessler. I certainly don't think a Jones fight happens and I don't think Tarver's going to be an easy negotiator, not after the way he looked in his last 3 fights. so who does that leave? I wouldn't be surprised if it came back to Kessler, who Showtime like. but MK won't look so big vs Calzaghe, and how will the clinical Dane cope vs Joe's fire?

let's hope we find out, as Kessler would break the current Jones and probably box Tarver's eras off. but there's no need to diss Joe as worthless if if doesn't happen

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 14 Mar 2006, 10:55

viciousmaussa wrote:...

While you argue your points well I see most things a little differently. I always rated Beyer and Mundine higher than Lacy, thus I contest he was "at least #3". By general public perception, yes - and this is what team Calzaghe capitalized on - but not by ability.

As for Calzaghe-Ottke, who knows. This is the everlasting coulda woulda shoulda topic. What seems certain is that stylewise Ottke would have been a very unpleasant opponent for Calzaghe. By his own admission, Calzaghe doesn't like to chase opponents, and footspeed is not his particular strenght. All this would have played into Ottke's hands. One also needs to consider that Ottke peaked around 2000/01 - the Chrales Brewer II, Glen Johnson, Silvio Branco fights were probably his best - while Calzaghe peaks now, five years later. Thus I consider Ottke the favorite until about 2002, and Calzaghe thereafter.

The fight never came about because the risk-return ratio was never right - and optimizing risk-return is certainly what Warren has in mind when matching Calzaghe. For the very same reason, Kessler-Calzaghe is not going to happen. Unless Calzaghe goes down the Ricky Hatton route and fires Warren. If he doesn't, it will mean that Calzaghe will remain without a fight that really challenged his boxing abilities, and this will show when the history of the s-m divison will be written.

If I sound a little frustrated this is because I exactly saw this coming: after 10 years of (largely) waste Calzaghe finaly takes a unification fight - against an over-hyped, taylor-made opponent who happens to have a US passport and thus can be sold on US TV. Lacy was a gift of god for team Calzaghe. And Calzaghe uses this win, and the reputation gained from it, to go for celebrity fights rather than follow up and tackle the boxing challenges that there are - Kessler, Johnson, Adamek, for example.

P