fantasy fights

[jaclem3]

..i try to stay away from fantasy fights because how can we really tell who would win, say sugar ray robinson or..well, name your own. it's fun to express an opinion, but trying to actually prove your choice is impossible.

however, i did do a pair just recently, because i didn't think they were controversial ,,,,i thought foreman beating tyson was so obvious it didn't require further comment...but the discussion kept on going!

even sillier is ali vs chamberlain. this would be a joke. and yet, this thread provides near proustian length posts! i mean there just aren't two sides to this one, yet it goes on and on.

charles vs conn? i pick charles, but i wouldn't be stunned if this fantasy match could actually be made, i wouldn't be shocked if billy won. saddened , but not stunned.
i could make a good argument for ezzard, but someone could make a reasoned argument the other way. then would come the name calling, and it would go on for a while, i think and the sensible commentary would get buried, but it would make for a good exchange, and this one would require data from people who really know boxing.

but foreman kayoing tyson and ali making a fool of chamberlain? so silly, i can't comprehend anyone who knows anything about boxing thinking there are two sides to this.because there just aren't.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

however, i did do a pair just recently, because i didn't think they were controversial ,,,,i thought foreman beating tyson was so obvious it didn't require further comment...but the discussion kept on going!

even sillier is ali vs chamberlain. this would be a joke. and yet, this thread provides near proustian length posts! i mean there just aren't two sides to this one, yet it goes on and on.

but foreman kayoing tyson and ali making a fool of chamberlain? so silly, i can't comprehend anyone who knows anything about boxing thinking there are two sides to this.because there just aren't.

- Well, since you stepped into it, just gonna quote Wiki for Ali/Wilt with my own follow up and then look at the timelines involved in the Tyson/Foreman.




""After the 1971 playoffs, Chamberlain had yet another offer to fight heavyweight boxing legend Muhammad Ali. The 15-round fight would have taken place on July 26, 1971 in the Houston Astrodome but Chamberlain refused.[22] The potential Chamberlain-Ali match was predicated on Ali beating Joe Frazier in a fight scheduled for early 1971. However, Frazier defeated Ali to hand Ali his first professional loss. As a result, Chamberlain declined the fight through a contractual escape clause.[83] In a 1999 interview, Chamberlain stated that boxing trainer Cus D'Amato wanted to train him for the fight, and they offered Ali and him $5 million each to battle each other. Chamberlain checked back with his father and finally said no.[84][85] Lakers owner Jack Kent Cooke had also offered Chamberlain a record-setting contract on the condition that Chamberlain agree to give up what Cooke termed "this boxing foolishness." [86] This was not the first time a Chamberlain-Ali fight had been explored, as offers had also been made in both 1965 and 1967. In 1967, recently retired NFL star Jim Brown acted as Chamberlain's manager, but Ali's manager Jabir Herbert Muhammad backed out of the Chamberlain-Ali match which was slated to take place at Madison Square Garden.[87]""

- OK, in 1971 the much older Chamberlain was nearing the end of his career primarily because of leg injuries. Ali lost to Frazier, negating their contract and their combined $10 mil purse,, so why mess around with a bunch of dirty lying boxing promoters who can't deliver the goods yet again when you can take a record busting contract offer from the Lakers...DUH! Wilt was worth $25 mil when he passed in spite of living extravagantly. No ghetto bum, he knew the value of his physical services and his creative mind made savvy business decisions, not the least was his seminal development of dozens of Olympic track and field stars from his interest in that sport. As you can see from his photo, he played for the Harlem Globetrotters out of an early exit from college because of NBA draft rules prohibiting him from turning pro until a year later. He loved the trotters and often returned to play for many years out of sheer joy of entertainment, the only time he really liked basketball. The ABC video on this thread is from 1967, and again, not enough money forthcoming by money men and Ali backed out anyways. In 1965 Ali was in recovery from his hernia and later fought Liston and then broken back Patterson. Any alleged offer failed to attract any attention whatsoever. Ali was not the big earner he became after Frazier and Foreman, so why would Wilt want to fight for peanuts? Nothing wrong with thinking Ali wins, but the simple fact remains not only were Cus and Wilt geniuses in their fashion, no fighter big and small has ever existed with the formidable natural physical attributes as Wilt. In all of sports, there are only three all time multi talented outliers like that, Wilt, Babe Ruth, and Jim Thorpe. I'd give Ruth and Thorpe zero chance against Ali, but Wilt is a whole 'nother thing, and as much as it may pain the lot of you, many thought Wilt could do the business in 1967 when it was the biggest story going.

As to Foreman, he came back in 1987 specifically targeting Tyson with plenty of stylistic matchups that included top pros Qawi and Bert Cooper. They still had excellent records back then when Foreman steamrolled em. That was 1989 when Tyson was still undefeated, but King had been breaking up his HOF team as he was steadily losing the plot and needing strong medications that turned him into a zombie for the Douglas fight. Yeah, Foreman beats that version also, but the version who fought Ruddock 2x was off his meds and better trained, now that's an iffy fight for both Tyson and Foreman that I'd have to favor Tyson in as I think he'd bust up George's face pretty bad.

I thought Foreman beat Mr. Field who was supposedly the best trained fighter in heavy history yet holding on for dear life by the end. Tyson was in prison and wouldn't be out until 4 years later. Foreman could easily beat that version that McNeely bulled into the corner to pound with impunity until Tyson landed some haymakers that put him down and jerked his trainer into throwing the towel as he jumped into the ring for the DQ. The only guy to legit beat Foreman during this time was Morrison and only by employing a hit and run style that was far more effective than Field who wore down rather easily. Briggs also less effectively ran from the 50 yr old Foreman, so it's safe to say Foreman would beat Tyson of that time also.

Now, the Foreman of 1991 which was the best version of his comeback vs the 21 year old Tyson who blew out Spinks in 1988, there's your all time match up. Gotta favor Tyson who still had half of his HOF team remaining, however, George had enough to prevail if he finally starts to time Tyson. Alas, this fight business disrespects fighter timelines which is why Monzon never fought Hagler and Hagler never fought McCallum and so on.

[littlepug]

fantasy fights are a bit daft because its impossible to know what would actually happen "on the night", lots of fights would have a different result had they happened a week later or even the day before because of the variables involved, for example what if holy and bowe only met that once ? people would have all kinds of opinions on what would of happened in a rematch, but i doubt anyone would of predicted a holy win possibly due to a guy flying his way into the ring ! comparing boxers is fine but trying to work out who would win on ONE particular night is impossible

[sugarramos]

fantasy fight are fun until someone gets to serious and people start to disrespect overs opinions then the whole point of these discussions is gone
I like fantasy fights because its good to express your opinion and talk and debate with others about there's

[Syntax Error]

Henry Armstrong v Roberto Duran at 135, 140 or 147.

[APerno]

Ali - Foreman II - wanted to see that fight, but no!

[davie]

I tend to argue these match ups in the manner of "X beats Y 7 times out of 10" or " I favour this guy but it's a 60/40"

except from in ridiculous circumstances, it's not right to say any ATG fighter beats another all day every day.

Like people saying Holmes beats Foreman or vice versa 100% of the time, is to me disrespectful to either man.

No man in the history of the sport (and no fighter yet to be born IMO) beats either of these men with ease in their prime, no man ever wins against these two 8 or 9 out of 10 let alone everytime guaranteed. Yet some state these things with absolute confidence

[Ezzard]

I love to discuss them...and love it when someone puts forward an argument I hadn't considered... For the most part nobody ever changes their mind...they just become more entrenched and emotional...

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree that seldom is someone who had a strong opinion going to change their mind. I do think that sometimes people are on the fence and can be swayed by a good argument.
Also, many times people have never considered a particular fight, and can be swayed by a strong argument over a weak one.
I guess this can go for anything, not just fantasy fights.