Anthony Joshua vs the All-Time Great Heavyweights

[elmersalsa]

How good is Anthony Joshua? We all know we got a poster in this forum that is crazy and hyped about him.

How does Joshua does prime versus prime vs these guys:
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis

[tiny_acres]

Given the lack of evidence of Joshua's all time status.
He loses them all.
Until I see a body of work from him years down the line with wins over prime top fighters I will consider him a talented question mark.

[Give up]

He loses them all

[Rexob]

Where's Fury on that list?

[SteveO]

We don't really know how good Joshua is at this stage but he sure looks promising.
So at the moment I wouldn't bet on him to beat any of the great champions on your list.

[IKSRTFO]

Agreed. We dont' know how good he really is. Truth be told, he could turn out to be another Khan just with more power.

[BoxBuzz]

The report is in, seems a few of you are ignoring it.

[Kalan]

How good is Anthony Joshua? We all know we got a poster in this forum that is crazy and hyped about him.

How does Joshua does prime versus prime vs these guys:
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis

Joshua beats Foreman.. He has a better jab and defense than Jimmy Young and a far better right counter. Young was dropped and stopped a lot. Jimmy lost twice in a row to Cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio---who had only 11 fights. Young lost 3 of his next 4 fights after out-boxing Foreman. Young had several losses already when he out-slicked the wide open Foreman. Few expected Young to win, but Foreman was overrated. Foreman never faced a slick boxer with such tremendous reach and power as Joshua.. Foreman at his best was 6'3 X 217.. Joshua stands 6'6" X 245.. Foreman vs Frazier all over again.

Anthony Joshua beats Ali and Frazier... I had Ali losing to Light Heavyweight Doug Jones when he had about as much experience as Joshua.. Ali also got ripped, floored, and beaten by left hooks by the wide open hooker Frazier. Ali lacked the power to hold the short little 205-pound kid off. Frazier finally faced a big, tall, brutally strong, and solidly built Heavyweight in George Foreman - with predictable results. AJ is bigger, taller, stronger, and gets into that kind of shape for every single fight ... instead of just once in a lifetime.

Joe Louis was smashed unconscious by 192-pound Max Schmeling.. AJ has a better right hand counter than Schmeling had.. Billy Conn lit Louis up with hooks, uppercuts, rights, and body shots.. Conn had no power because he was a small Light Heavyweight who started his pro career as a Lightweight.. Were Conn as big and powerful as Joshua he would have crushed the pedestrian Louis.. AJ has a better defense, and doesn't give you a thing.

Tyson couldn't stay with Buster Douglas when he was a prime 23 years old.. The reason is---Douglas was 6'4" X 231 and could box and punch... BD had good movement, weapons, and defensive skills.. Even though BD had been knocked out 3 times before, and was shlttcanned quickly in his next fight---he managed to beat the living fk out of Tyson before knocking him out.. AJ is smarter, bigger, taller, stronger, has a longer reach and other physical dimensions, owns a better chin, and punches a lot harder than the often KO'd Buster Douglas -- so AJ doesn't look like a good matchup for Lil Mike.

Larry Holmes was a brilliant boxer.. He looked dominating in his fight with Ossie Ocasio -- unlike Jimmy Young who got his ass kicked by Ocasio -- but Holmes was in a life and death struggle with the skilled and slick Tim Witherspoon.. You see, Spoon only had 15 fights and wasn't expected to show against Holmes, but he had some of the same natural abilities as Anthony Joshua.. Tim had a jab, a right hand counter, decent footwork, some defensive skills, and good punching power.. However Joshua has more experience than Spoon had at that time---and his skills are far more developed.. His much better size, height, reach, speed, and power, and that would make all the difference.. Joshua is very dedicated. Spoon was almost as big a fk off as Buster Douglas.

Marciano I'm not even going to comment on.. NOBODY would match him with Joshua... Marciano wouldn't even have beaten Floyd Patterson... Patterson had a rare combination of great speed, skill, craft, power, and youth going for him... That was a combination that Marciano never faced.

Lewis would have by far the best chance of all the above opponents... But he would be easily beaten... Lewis was knocked out with one right hand shot TWICE.. Rahman got lucky---but McCall's win was legitimate.. In the McCall rematch the Atomic Bull was a mental and emotional basket-case -- otherwise he had a good chance to repeat his rapid and decisive victory. Vitali Klitschko was easily beating Lewis on points.. He almost knocked LL out for a 3rd time with right hands in the 2nd round.. That was before Lewis ripped open cuts on his eye with foul blows to open the 3rd... Joshua's right is harder, faster, and more deceptive than Vitali's nifty weapon.. Watching a young Lewis get ripped by a mentally and emotionally healthy McCall---and getting knocked out---I don't see Lennox dealing well with Joshua, who has the best right ever..

[Give up]

[evrenb]

How good is Anthony Joshua? We all know we got a poster in this forum that is crazy and hyped about him.

How does Joshua does prime versus prime vs these guys:
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis

Joshua beats Foreman.. He has a better jab and defense than Jimmy Young and a far better right counter. Young was dropped and stopped a lot. Jimmy lost twice in a row to Cruiserweight Ossie Ocasio---who had only 11 fights. Young lost 3 of his next 4 fights after out-boxing Foreman. Young had several losses already when he out-slicked the wide open Foreman. Few expected Young to win, but Foreman was overrated. Foreman never faced a slick boxer with such tremendous reach and power as Joshua.. Foreman at his best was 6'3 X 217.. Joshua stands 6'6" X 245.. Foreman vs Frazier all over again.

Anthony Joshua beats Ali and Frazier... I had Ali losing to Light Heavyweight Doug Jones when he had about as much experience as Joshua.. Ali also got ripped, floored, and beaten by left hooks by the wide open hooker Frazier. Ali lacked the power to hold the short little 205-pound kid off. Frazier finally faced a big, tall, brutally strong, and solidly built Heavyweight in George Foreman - with predictable results. AJ is bigger, taller, stronger, and gets into that kind of shape for every single fight ... instead of just once in a lifetime.

Joe Louis was smashed unconscious by 192-pound Max Schmeling.. AJ has a better right hand counter than Schmeling had.. Billy Conn lit Louis up with hooks, uppercuts, rights, and body shots.. Conn had no power because he was a small Light Heavyweight who started his pro career as a Lightweight.. Were Conn as big and powerful as Joshua he would have crushed the pedestrian Louis.. AJ has a better defense, and doesn't give you a thing.

Tyson couldn't stay with Buster Douglas when he was a prime 23 years old.. The reason is---Douglas was 6'4" X 231 and could box and punch... BD had good movement, weapons, and defensive skills.. Even though BD had been knocked out 3 times before, and was shlttcanned quickly in his next fight---he managed to beat the living fk out of Tyson before knocking him out.. AJ is smarter, bigger, taller, stronger, has a longer reach and other physical dimensions, owns a better chin, and punches a lot harder than the often KO'd Buster Douglas -- so AJ doesn't look like a good matchup for Lil Mike.

Larry Holmes was a brilliant boxer.. He looked dominating in his fight with Ossie Ocasio -- unlike Jimmy Young who got his ass kicked by Ocasio -- but Holmes was in a life and death struggle with the skilled and slick Tim Witherspoon.. You see, Spoon only had 15 fights and wasn't expected to show against Holmes, but he had some of the same natural abilities as Anthony Joshua.. Tim had a jab, a right hand counter, decent footwork, some defensive skills, and good punching power.. However Joshua has more experience than Spoon had at that time---and his skills are far more developed.. His much better size, height, reach, speed, and power, and that would make all the difference.. Joshua is very dedicated. Spoon was almost as big a fk off as Buster Douglas.

Marciano I'm not even going to comment on.. NOBODY would match him with Joshua... Marciano wouldn't even have beaten Floyd Patterson... Patterson had a rare combination of great speed, skill, craft, power, and youth going for him... That was a combination that Marciano never faced.

Lewis would have by far the best chance of all the above opponents... But he would be easily beaten... Lewis was knocked out with one right hand shot TWICE.. Rahman got lucky---but McCall's win was legitimate.. In the McCall rematch the Atomic Bull was a mental and emotional basket-case -- otherwise he had a good chance to repeat his rapid and decisive victory. Vitali Klitschko was easily beating Lewis on points.. He almost knocked LL out for a 3rd time with right hands in the 2nd round.. That was before Lewis ripped open cuts on his eye with foul blows to open the 3rd... Joshua's right is harder, faster, and more deceptive than Vitali's nifty weapon.. Watching a young Lewis get ripped by a mentally and emotionally healthy McCall---and getting knocked out---I don't see Lennox dealing well with Joshua, who has the best right ever..

[Crease]

We don't have enough evidence to know how good AJ is. He has fought a lot of second-rate opposition thus far in his career (Martin, Breazale, Molina).

Only when he fights top, top guys like Klitchsko, Wilder, Fury - well we know how truly good he is. I'd also throw Povetkin, Pulev and Haye in this conversation as well.

When he starts going through them and defeating them convincingly, then we can talk about it.

[APerno]

Strong man - keeps his left low while walking in ...

[man]

too early to tell. against bad competition
everyone looks good.

[Kalan]

We don't have enough evidence to know how good AJ is. He has fought a lot of second-rate opposition thus far in his career (Martin, Breazale, Molina).

Only when he fights top, top guys like Klitchsko, Wilder, Fury - well we know how truly good he is. I'd also throw Povetkin, Pulev and Haye in this conversation as well.

When he starts going through them and defeating them convincingly, then we can talk about it.

Let's not have a double standard.. That above list of ATG champs didn't beat everybody convincingly.. They lost their share of fights.. We already have a good idea that AJ wil beat the top guys out there -- just from the way he dominated and stopped everyone he's faced so far, while absorbing maybe 1 great shot in all his fights. He possibly lost that round -- although he came right back in that round and I felt he edged it anyway.

When you look at the mediocre competition champs like Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Holmes, Tyson, and Lewis fought -- they didn't always look that fabulous against 2nd raters... Ali and Tyson lost massive upsets while Frazier was unable to get a punching bag like Bonavena out.

I don't think you're going to see Joshua fight anyone as bad or as small as Don Cockell, Alfredo Evangelista, Dave Zyglewictz, Terry Daniels, Rudi Lubbers, Tom McNeeley, Richard Dunn, Red Burman, or dozens of other poorly trained and tiny non-boxers who fought for the Heavyweight Title over the years.. Then you have the joke of Larry Holmes being ready and willing to fight Ali ... and Ali being allowed to fight Leon Spinks.

If Joshua fought anyone like that, they would be 30 second jobs.. No commission today is going to approve match-ups like that today. I think it's disgrace they allowed Eric Molina to fight for the Heavyweight Championship twice. I don't believe in the concept of "voluntary defenses." We have bad enough match-ups without allowing World Champions to choose "stay busy" type opponents -- and many mandatory challengers are a joke as well. I think in some of these cases they just tell their org who they want to fight -- and for a fee, they make them the mandatory.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Where's Fury on that list?

Now there is a fighter I'm certain Joshua would eviscerate.

[Crease]

I don't think you're going to see Joshua fight anyone as bad or as small as Don Cockell, Alfredo Evangelista, Dave Zyglewictz, Terry Daniels, Rudi Lubbers, Tom McNeeley, Richard Dunn, Red Burman

If Joshua fought anyone like that, they would be 30 second jobs..

Mr Kalan, you have always advocated the "Height is Might" argument and you set too much store by it.

It leads to you making outlandish statements as you have above.

Physicality and frame isn't everything - as further evidenced this evening with a very big Heavyweight who can punch fairly hard losing to a lower sized Heavyweight who can punch fairly hard.

I speak of Christian Hammer TKOing David Price earlier this evening.

[Kalan]

I don't think you're going to see Joshua fight anyone as bad or as small as Don Cockell, Alfredo Evangelista, Dave Zyglewictz, Terry Daniels, Rudi Lubbers, Tom McNeeley, Richard Dunn, Red Burman

If Joshua fought anyone like that, they would be 30 second jobs..

Mr Kalan, you have always advocated the "Height is Might" argument and you set too much store by it.

It leads to you making outlandish statements as you have above.

Physicality and frame isn't everything - as further evidenced this evening with a very big Heavyweight who can punch fairly hard losing to a lower sized Heavyweight who can punch fairly hard.

I speak of Christian Hammer TKOing David Price earlier this evening.

I NEVER said height is might or anything like that... Who's taller? Lomachenko or Walters??? Who has the longer reach??? I've also said that David Price was one of the clumsiest oafs who ever pulled on a pair of boxing gloves... What Don Cockell, Alfredo Evangelista, Dave Zyglewictz, Terry Daniels, Rudi Lubbers, Tom McNeeley, Richard Dunn, and Red Burman all had in common was ineptitude combined with lack of Heavyweight size... What Anythony Joshua and Wladimir Klitschko have in common is they're both great athletes... and they're both very big, tall, and powerful... and that helps you win.

Height, weight, reach, strength, and punching power don't MAKE you win... but they help out a little... If Foreman were shorter and smaller than Frazier I don't believe he would have been able to dribble Joe around like an over-inflated basketball and stop him in 2 extremely one-sided rounds.

[Klee Gluckman]

Joshua would get beaten comprehensively time and time again by all the greats.

[davie]

Where's Fury on that list?

9th?

[Kalan]

Joshua would get beaten comprehensively time and time again by all the greats.

He would crush all of them... Especially the tiny and short little Frazier and Marciano...

Joshua would get Louis with his superb right hand counters like Schmeling did... AJ would jab the crap out of the much smaller and immobile Foreman and Liston... His superb left hook would find Ali's chin and flatten him 10 X harder than Banks, Cooper, and Frazier caught Ali with the same weapon... Lewis would experience his 3rd one-way trip to the canvas via a smashing right hander... Jeffries was too damned slow... Dempsey too small and hittable... Tunney too undersized... Johnson fought at too slow a pace to prevail against the much more active Joshua... Half the Klitschko Bros will be dealt with in his next Title Defense via swift KO... Vitali would be outboxed through 12 with speed and finesse... Easy work for AJ cleaning out the lot of 'em.

That's the Dirty Dozen plus 1 ... Anybody else was so bad they're really not worth talking about.

[davie]

What I would say, to those that have said he loses to every one, is that just because he hasn't beat any great fighters doesn't mean he wont.

And just as Kalan can't provide the evidence from his resume, that he is that good, no one can say for certain that he is not.

He might go on to pummel Wlad, Haye, Ortiz, Wilder and Fury, then dominate for a decade and beat the next generation too. (of course he might not)

Just because we don't yet have the proof that he is elite doesn't mean he isnt. In which case we can't say decisively how he would do so we can only use the evidence we have.

He's a huge powerful man and fairly quick with it and although we can't say he is as good as Ali or Louis yet, we can confidently say he is world class.
Having a good, if not exceptional, skillset combined with the very obvious physical advantages he would have over most of those names, at very least makes him dangerous prospect and a difficult nights work for any of them.

I'm not sure how many he would win or lose but he would have a chance in each and enter any as at least a live under dog.




He smashes Marciano to pieces though.....

[BoxBuzz]

Joshua would get beaten comprehensively time and time again by all the greats.

He would crush all of them... Especially the tiny and short little Frazier and Marciano...

Joshua would get Louis with his superb right hand counters like Schmeling did... AJ would jab the crap out of the much smaller and immobile Foreman and Liston... His superb left hook would find Ali's chin and flatten him 10 X harder than Banks, Cooper, and Frazier caught Ali with the same weapon... Lewis would experience his 3rd one-way trip to the canvas via a smashing right hander... Jeffries was too damned slow... Dempsey too small and hittable... Tunney too undersized... Johnson fought at too slow a pace to prevail against the much more active Joshua... Half the Klitschko Bros will be dealt with in his next Title Defense via swift KO... Vitali would be outboxed through 12 with speed and finesse... Easy work for AJ cleaning out the lot of 'em.

That's the Dirty Dozen plus 1 ... Anybody else was so bad they're really not worth talking about.

Seems clear to me that you consider Joshua the best. So I tender this question in all earnest.

If joshua was the hw champ during the era that wilt was willing to campaign for boxing honors. Who walks away the winner? Size and strength with 6 months experience? or talent and skill with the full experience and savvy developed via a winning career behind them?

[Kalan]

Joshua would get beaten comprehensively time and time again by all the greats.

He would crush all of them... Especially the tiny and short little Frazier and Marciano...

Joshua would get Louis with his superb right hand counters like Schmeling did... AJ would jab the crap out of the much smaller and immobile Foreman and Liston... His superb left hook would find Ali's chin and flatten him 10 X harder than Banks, Cooper, and Frazier caught Ali with the same weapon... Lewis would experience his 3rd one-way trip to the canvas via a smashing right hander... Jeffries was too damned slow... Dempsey too small and hittable... Tunney too undersized... Johnson fought at too slow a pace to prevail against the much more active Joshua... Half the Klitschko Bros will be dealt with in his next Title Defense via swift KO... Vitali would be outboxed through 12 with speed and finesse... Easy work for AJ cleaning out the lot of 'em.

That's the Dirty Dozen plus 1 ... Anybody else was so bad they're really not worth talking about.

Seems clear to me that you consider Joshua the best. So I tender this question in all earnest.

If joshua was the hw champ during the era that wilt was willing to campaign for boxing honors. Who walks away the winner? Size and strength with 6 months experience? or talent and skill with the full experience and savvy developed via a winning career behind them?

You love to bring up Chamberlain, as if he boxed, for some reason he wouldn't have been super successful, when he had all the talent in the world.. I wouldn't necessarily match him with Joshua, or anyone with Joshua's athletic prowess who happens to be 6'6" X 245 or bigger, holds a significant experience advantage, and who is also gifted with great speed, punching power, and defensive finesse and has an inside game. I would be happy to match Chamberlain with an even bigger guy like Dominic Breazeale -- who is a gifted athlete but lacks boxing instincts and a boxing brain. Wilt would obliterate DB with his hand speed, foot speed, insane punching range, and punching power.

Now Klitschko was a big favorite to beat Tyson Fury correct??? Most fans and experts were fooled by that fight.. A lot of that had to do with Fury's lack of focus, lack of discipline, mental instability, lack of conditioning, lack of athleticism, etc. --- But After the fight WK said "I didn't let my hands go!" He didn't say "Fury is 3 inches taller and his reach if 4" longer, and he has a boxing brain so I couldn't find good openings." Klitschko had 3 X as much experience---but Fury could hit Wlad at a range where Wlad couldn't hit him.. Fury has good enough instincts and enough knowledge of defense to where Wladimir could never hit him with a real good punch all night ... and there was nothing the Ukrainian could do about it.

Fury is not an inept no-talent like David Price. He's a born boxer. He just doesn't work hard at it because he's gotten away with murder. I can see where if he controlled his mouth, grew a brain, saw a great psychiatrist who could help him, developed a work ethic, and put in the hours in the gym, and also hired a great strength trainer and got some physical strength going, he might dominate the division. None of that will happen.

Now Chamberlain was one of the greatest natural athletes in History. Not only was he super talented, but he put in the hours. He screwed around and partied a lot, and kept some weird hours, but I've never seen that kill a boxer. What kills them is if they don't go home by 6AM, get into their running duds and hit the road for a long, hard run -- and do whatever routines they're supposed to be doing following their run before they grab a long nap.. They might perform just as well or better that afternoon at the gym and get to bed by 10 that night.. That's discipline.. But if they don't do the run, don't do the routines, don't take the nap, don't get to the gym, and party for 3 days in a row.. they're getting fat, boozing it up, snorting cocaine, and screwing everything that walks.. then they get their asses kicked no matter how talented they are..

Chamberlain was a winner first.. He put aside everything that would make him a loser.. You match him with a hittable guy like Ali who didn't duck under punches very well and pulled straight back from punches.. A guy who fights only from range because he's taller than most all his opponents.. A guy with no inside game or body attack and ties up everybody.. because you saw with Klitschko-Fury that you can't tie up a real tall guy who has any powerful physical strength.. All you do is get spun around like Klitschko did when the bigger guy sheds your grasping arms. Then Tony Weeks had to jump in because Klitschko was vulnerable to getting hit with a blind shot.

[BoxBuzz]

Ok, Hidden within your megaverbic thesis is an answer....and I'm thinkin' your answer is......Joshua over Wilt.


See....we can agree on some things.

[Kalan]

That's not what the post is saying... The post tells you Joshua wouldn't have been the perfect opponent... And Ali would have been. You have to read it.