Small heavyweights vs Medium Sized Heavyweights

[Ambling Alp II]

Thought this would be fun.
How do small great heavyweights done against "medium" sized heavyweights?
Lets keep track. Take any fight where a great smaller heavyweight (under 200 pounds) fought a heavyweight who weighed between 200-220. To be fair, the losing fighter had to be close to his prime.

Here a couple to get started:
Jack Johnson (205) def Joe Jeannette (185)
Max Baer (203) def Max Schmeling (189)

On the other hand,
Tommy Loughran (183) def Max Baer (200.05)
Joe Louis (198) def Max Baer (210)

There are plenty more of examples. Lets see how many we can come up with.

This could be interesting.

[Cygnus475]

Why not just bump the other thread?

[Ambling Alp II]

I thought about that, but the other thread was about smaller heavyweights vs big heavyweights. The results showed clearly that the great smaller hreavyweights dominated the big heavyweights.

However, I wanted to see how did against "normal" sized heavyweights. If done on the other thread, people would still be bring up small vs big.

I honest don't know how small vs normal sized will pan out. My theory the medium size havyweights would have the edge. I think they would still have enough benefits of being bigger without the negatives hurting them too much. However, that is just a theory and I don't know if it is true.

Really, I am trying to see if there is and "ideal" size for heavyweight.

There were many more examples of these kinds of fights happening through the years. Hopefully people can do some digging and find some.

[Kalan]

Larger Heavyweights have dominated smaller Heavyweights most of the time... The saying goes, "A good big man beats a good little man" ... and it's true.

As seen in -- Foreman vs Frazier.... Liston vs Patterson.... Ali vs Patterson... Frazier vs Quarry... Lewis vs Tyson... Douglas vs Tyson... Tyson vs Spinks... Holmes vs Weaver... Norton vs Bobick... Klitschko vs Haye... Klitschko vs Povetkin... Wilder vs Szpilka... Joshua vs Love... Ortiz vs Jennings... Frazier vs Foster... Louis vs Conn... Lewis vs Mavrovic... Lewis vs Morrison... Smith vs Weaver... Ruddock vs Jackson... Schmeling vs Walker... Carnera vs Loughran... Johnson vs Burns... Dempsey vs Carpentier... Baer vs Schmeling... Klitschko vs Adamek... Valuev vs Barrett... Liston vs Folley... Jeffries vs Corbett... Jeffries vs Fitzsimmons... Jeffries vs Armstrong... Jeffries vs Jackson... Jeffries vs Sharkey... Johnson vs Ketchel... etc.

[Ambling Alp II]

On the other thread it was shown quite clearly that the smaller heavyweights completely dominated the large heavyweights.

How did they do against normal sized heavyweights? Most of Kalan's examples don't count.
However a couple do count.
Frazier (209) beat Foster (188)
Baer (203) beat Schmeling (189)
Jeffries (205) beat Tom Sharkey (183)

(I made a judgement call and didn't count Jeffries wins over Fitzsimmons and Corbett because they were old/coming off of long layoffs. That can be changed if someone can
make a decent argument for counting them.)

That makes it 5-2 for medium sized heavyweights.

A couple more regarding Bob Foster:
Ernie Terrell (202.5) beat Foster (183.75)
Zora Folley (212.25) beat Foster (181)

That makes it 7-2 for the medium-sized heavyweights.

[Kalan]

It was never shown by anyone that smaller Heavyweights dominated larger Heavyweights... That's a bogus statement and opinion with your own selective inclusions and exclusions... The Qeensberry rules have been in effect in the United States and Canada for 128 years.. The first Cruiserweight fight was stagged in 1979 because athletes are getting bigger, stronger, and more agile -- and it's unfair for a 190 pound man to fight a 240 pound man.. Anytime you give up a lot of height, weight, and reach you're at a severe disadvantage for finding the range and getting tagged up.. You can make up for that with superior skills, speed, power, and tactics, but it's still a gap you have to close.

I've talked to hundreds of Heavyweights and they love to fight shorter, smaller guys and hate to fight bigger, taller guys ... unless they're complete scrubs like David Price... But even Price destroys shorter, lighter guys who are as scrubby as he is.. Povetkin has great skills and so did Klitschko in his prime.. Povetkin was whitewashed on all scorecards except for the round he got for being roughhoused by the bigger, stronger Klitschko.. It's the only fight he ever lost.

[Like a Boss]

In general, a good big man does beat a good little man. But there are exceptions and it comes down to who they are and what they bring to the table.

[Ambling Alp II]

We hear that a lot, that but is it really true? Is it a myth?
We did a thread a while back with smaller great heavyweights ( less than 200 pounds) vs big heavyweights 240 or above. We found 17 examples. The smaller guy won 15 of the 17 times.

This thread I am taking smaller great heavyweights and putting them up against medium size heavyweights. I suspect the medium size guys will have the edge, but lets put it to the test.

Lets put the cliches and theories to the test. Lets see what actually happened.

I found two more examples.
Joe Louis (198) def Max Baer (210)
Tommy Loughran (183) def Max Baer (200.05)

So far the count is 7-4 for the medium-sized heavyweights.

[Kalan]

You're being selective... Take 50 of Valuev's 52 opponents... He won those.. Take 88 of Primo Carnera's 102 opponents... He won those.

Then take all of Mike Tyson's losses. They were mostly to bigger and taller guys -- even Holyfield was 4 inches taller... All of Patterson's losses were to bigger, taller guys... Frazier's losses were to bigger, taller guys... Most fights are won by the bigger guy -- but you're blind.

[Kalan]

And when you're talking guys who weigh 240... Tons of those were FAT. Doesn't count for BIG... Before he fought Dempsey Willard had ONE (1) fight where he weighed over 240... That was his exhibition with Moran -- not a real fight but a sparring match, which is why he was so fat.

And you're counting Buster Mathis... who weighed as little as 220 when he was in half decent condition... And Frazier weighed over 200 so you're fudging

[Cygnus475]

Theres a reason hes mostly sticking with b and a level opponents. Guys over 6'4 are rare inside and outside the ring. Its east for carnera and valueve to find 50 tomato cans who are under 6'1 and weigh far less than them. That would severely skew the news.

[Kalan]

Guys over 6'4" are NOT so rare...

I know MANY of them and look at any college basketball team these days... They have tall athletic guys... Look at all the NBA teams... Most of their guys are over 6'4" and most are extremely athletic... There's hundreds of them... The same with Football today... In the NFL there 25 guys on each team who are 6'4" and taller.. Many are not only big and fast, but very athletic.. I went to a Latino mass on Sunday because my schedule was so difficult.. It's a huge church and I was amazed that I seemed to be the tallest person there... I generally go to a fairly mixed race mass and there's usually one or another person taller.. Usually it's younger people... I played center on my basketball team and today I'd be a guard.

Louis wasn't small for his day.. Neither were Walcott, Charles, Marciano, and Patterson.. They weren't smaller than most of their challengers.. Every World Heavyweight Champion right now is 6'4" or taller... Joshua, Wilder, and Parker, and the previous ones Fury, Klitschko, Martin, and the best challenger Ortiz is 6'4"... Sonny Liston at 6'1" X 215 made the 190-pound Patterson look anemic.. Patterson looked pathetic standing next to Liston.. Frazier looked like a joke standing next to 6'3" X 217 Foreman.. Of the top 8 Heavyweights, Povetkin and Haye are the only guys under 6'4" and they both couldn't get past Wladimir Klitschko who's 6'6" X 245

[IKSRTFO]

Guys over 6'4" are NOT so rare...

I know MANY of them and look at any college basketball team these days... They have tall athletic guys... Look at all the NBA teams... Most of their guys are over 6'4" and most are extremely athletic... There's hundreds of them... The same with Football today... In the NFL there 25 guys on each team who are 6'4" and taller.. Many are not only big and fast, but very athletic.. I went to a Latino mass on Sunday because my schedule was so difficult.. It's a huge church and I was amazed that I seemed to be the tallest person there... I generally go to a fairly mixed race mass and there's usually one or another person taller.. Usually it's younger people... I played center on my basketball team and today I'd be a guard.

Louis wasn't small for his day.. Neither were Walcott, Charles, Marciano, and Patterson.. They weren't smaller than most of their challengers.. Every World Heavyweight Champion right now is 6'4" or taller... Joshua, Wilder, and Parker, and the previous ones Fury, Klitschko, Martin, and the best challenger Ortiz is 6'4"... Sonny Liston at 6'1" X 215 made the 190-pound Patterson look anemic.. Patterson looked pathetic standing next to Liston.. Frazier looked like a joke standing next to 6'3" X 217 Foreman.. Of the top 8 Heavyweights, Povetkin and Haye are the only guys under 6'4" and they both couldn't get past Wladimir Klitschko who's 6'6" X 245

Center on a High School basketball team is very different from Center on a NBA team. And you've also forgotten, Ben Wallace is a center and Magic Johnson is a point guard and they're both the same height.

[Ambling Alp II]

This has been interesting so far.

Found 5 fights of Tommy Loughran's where he was under 200 and his opponent was 200-220.
He beat Paolino Uzcudun, Jack Sharkey and Enrie Schaaf. He also lost to Schaaf twice.

So far, it's 9-7 for the medium-sized heavyweights.

[Kalan]

Guys over 6'4" are NOT so rare...

I know MANY of them and look at any college basketball team these days... They have tall athletic guys... Look at all the NBA teams... Most of their guys are over 6'4" and most are extremely athletic... There's hundreds of them... The same with Football today... In the NFL there 25 guys on each team who are 6'4" and taller.. Many are not only big and fast, but very athletic.. I went to a Latino mass on Sunday because my schedule was so difficult.. It's a huge church and I was amazed that I seemed to be the tallest person there... I generally go to a fairly mixed race mass and there's usually one or another person taller.. Usually it's younger people... I played center on my basketball team and today I'd be a guard.

Louis wasn't small for his day.. Neither were Walcott, Charles, Marciano, and Patterson.. They weren't smaller than most of their challengers.. Every World Heavyweight Champion right now is 6'4" or taller... Joshua, Wilder, and Parker, and the previous ones Fury, Klitschko, Martin, and the best challenger Ortiz is 6'4"... Sonny Liston at 6'1" X 215 made the 190-pound Patterson look anemic.. Patterson looked pathetic standing next to Liston.. Frazier looked like a joke standing next to 6'3" X 217 Foreman.. Of the top 8 Heavyweights, Povetkin and Haye are the only guys under 6'4" and they both couldn't get past Wladimir Klitschko who's 6'6" X 245

Center on a High School basketball team is very different from Center on a NBA team. And you've also forgotten, Ben Wallace is a center and Magic Johnson is a point guard and they're both the same height.

It's long past the era of Magic Johnson. But he was one of the tallest point guards of all time, because you need to dribble, pass, and handle the ball a lot.. He also played center in the 6th and deciding game of his first NBA championship team that triumphed over the Sixers.. He was on 5 NBA Championship teams and one of the greatest players of all time.. 6'9" is fairly short for a center in the NBA... but for an athlete the caliber of Johnson it's doable.

[Ambling Alp II]

Found a few more.
Jack Sharkey (205) beat Max Schmeling (188)
On the hand, Sharkey at 187 beat George Godfrey (220)
Billy Miske (189) beat Bill Brennan (206)


The medium-sized heavyweights now lead 10-9 against the small heavyweights.

[Kalan]

With your selective process you're going to convince yourself that smaller is better. No one else is going to be convinced.

[davie]

We hear that a lot, that but is it really true? Is it a myth?
We did a thread a while back with smaller great heavyweights ( less than 200 pounds) vs big heavyweights 240 or above. We found 17 examples. The smaller guy won 15 of the 17 times.

This thread I am taking smaller great heavyweights and putting them up against medium size heavyweights. I suspect the medium size guys will have the edge, but lets put it to the test.

Lets put the cliches and theories to the test. Lets see what actually happened.

I found two more examples.
Joe Louis (198) def Max Baer (210)
Tommy Loughran (183) def Max Baer (200.05)

So far the count is 7-4 for the medium-sized heavyweights.

You can cherry pick your way to basically any decision you want, confirmation bias at it's very best

[Ambling Alp II]

davie, I am not cherrypicking at all.
I know there are many more fights that I have not listed yet. If you know of some, please list them.

[Kalan]

Why bother??? ... It's an exercise in dumbness... Were there any '50's Heavyweights Liston couldn't take??? Were there any 60's Heavyweights Ali couldn't take??? ... Were their any Heavyweights Holmes couldn't take for his first 48 fights??? ... They fought a ton of smaller guys -- you just didn't notice any.

[Ambling Alp II]

Because this is about what has actually happened. Take actual results of great smaller heavyweights vs Medium Size heavyweights. It's not about you saying this 215 pound would have beaten this 190 pound guy. I It's not about assuming the bigger guy would have won in a fight between two guys who never fought.
It's about what actually did happen.

Holmes never beat a great fighter under 200.
Liston beat Patterson twice.
Ali beat Patterson twice; I am adding just the first since Patterson was well past it in the rematch and Ali was over 220 anyway.

This now makes it 13-9 for the medium size heavyweights.

[Kalan]

If you notice -- generally they don't match guys who are very small with guys who are very big... Unless the small guys has a massive advantage in skills... or they sense the heavier man may be deteriorating because of age or physical disabilities such as Sergio Martinez was completely gone vs Cotto.

Ergo... No fight between Roy Jones and Lennox Lewis occurred... Roy cherry picked the weak link which happens every time... You never saw Marvin Hagler.. Ray Robinson.. or Carlos Monzon try to win the Light Heavyweight Title except in the case of Robinson vs Maxim.. Robinson wouldn't have had a chance versus Archie Moore, so he didn't try... Kovalev didn't try for the Heavyweight Title because there wasn't a good match-up for him... Even Usyk may not try for the Heavyweight Title if he doesn't find a weak target.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have found several results where the great smaller heavyweight fought a quality medium-sized heavyweight. I have listed several and I'm sure I can find more.

I have not been including fights where the guy who weighed 200-220 was a stiff. Every time he was at least a contender at the time of the fight. So there is not been cherrypicking.
If you can come with anymore that fits the criteria, by all means go ahead.
Middleweights are irrelevant for this thread. Though that might be interesting on another thread.

My theory is that the weight "advantage" declines as the weight goes up.
I believe there is a bigger "advantage" between a guy that weighs 175 and 160 than there is with one weighing 205 and the other 190. However I still think it is still a significant advantage at heavyweight. I believe that a medium sized heavyweight is the ideal size. We shall see.

[Kalan]

I knew you had an agenda... It's good that you announced it...

Your idealized size of a medium Heavyweight seems designed to build up the Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, All American brand... And disregard the Lewis, Klitschko, Klitschko, Fury, Joshua, Ortiz foreign born and bred Heavyweights... Just as Americans like Charles Atlas tend to dismiss any foreign Heavyweight Champions because they got beaten, and dismiss Lewis's victories over any American idol because they all happened when the Americans were past their prime...and Bowe didn't really duck Lewis... He just threw his Title Belt in the trash when Lewis was his mandatory challenger for the Hell of it.

When you can pick and choose the match-ups based on your own "ability categories" You get to choose what matchups are included and which are excluded...You have to remember there's a reason Patterson ducked Liston for many years... and a reason medium sized Haye was reluctant to fight the Klitschko's, Fury, Ortiz, Joshua, and even Wilder... He's picking on 2nd raters and it's not like he has a lot of years to waste.

[Controversial]

At some point size can play a big part, there are always exceptions. Funnily enough Tony Bellew has recently said he would never fight AJ as he's too big for him but considers Haye a small HW.