Why is George Foreman so highly rated?

[punchoutsb]

I'm not questioning whether he had declined, I am merely pointing out that him remaining undisputed champion when he had deteriorated enough to lose to Spinks (who had only 7 pro fights) certainly is not indicative of a strong era.

Which 50s heavyweight champions would you pick Leon Spinks to beat?

Walcott, Johansson, and Marciano... Charles and Patterson would likely beat him at their best -- but for Charles that wasn't a 50's version of him.

[Ambling Alp II]

I am also curious as to why the 70s in particular are singled out as a great era. I think most people would pick the Ali of the mid-60s to beat any heavyweight from the 70s (the 70s Ali would lose to the 60s version). Wouldn't that make the 60s superior to the 70s on a who beats who basis?

By itself, of course not. That is just the best fighter. You have to dig a lot further than that to just look at the best fighter. When discussing an entire decade of a division you should be talking about more than just the champion.
ali, then take the #2 guy for the 1960s vs #2 1970s. Then #3 is Patterson, who isn't nearly as good as Frazier and so on. If you know a lof about boxing, it becomes obvious that the 1970s was better.

The 1970s heavyweights is singled out because there was a ton of depth. You had of three great heavyweights of all time, and then Holmes came in at the end. No other decade can match that. You have several other very good fighters. Most people who have done research and watched films of these guys and compared them to other eras can tell that.

The 1960s were pretty good, just not as good as the 1970s overall.

[Kalan]

I am also curious as to why the 70s in particular are singled out as a great era. I think most people would pick the Ali of the mid-60s to beat any heavyweight from the 70s (the 70s Ali would lose to the 60s version). Wouldn't that make the 60s superior to the 70s on a who beats who basis?

Ali himself wouldn't even make that pick. After he knocked out Bonavena at 28 he said. "I'm a lot more mature and stronger now. Before I would hit people, bop, bop, bop bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, about 300 times and they wouldn't fall. Now I have the stopping power to knock people out who Joe Frazier couldn't hurt or knock down. I'm faster than ever, but with big Heavyweight power now. Frazier is not a big, tall, or fast Heavyweight like me. He's in trouble."

Ali fought guys in the 70's who didn't exist in the 60's... Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Foreman, and Young were a few levels above, Terrell, Mildenberger, Cooper, Williams, and Folley... Heavyweights were much better all around than existed in the 60's ... and Ali took a few losses.

[Cojimar 1946]

I still find it curious that in a supposedly great era Leon Spinks could become undisputed heavyweight champion. You didn't have anything like that happen in the 50s, Spinks only had 7 fights when he won the title. Also, I would have expected Ali would not have remained champion after Manilla if the era was as great as people claim. Would the Ali of 1976 or 1977 beat Walcott, Charles, Marciano, etc?

[Cojimar 1946]

I also thinks Charles run from 1976 to 1951 is being underrated by people. Surely his consistency over such a period should count for something in his rankings regardless of what happened afterwards? Ali lost 3 of his last 4 fights but people generally don't obsess over these fights.

[Tomasino]

I am also curious as to why the 70s in particular are singled out as a great era. I think most people would pick the Ali of the mid-60s to beat any heavyweight from the 70s (the 70s Ali would lose to the 60s version). Wouldn't that make the 60s superior to the 70s on a who beats who basis?

Ali himself wouldn't even make that pick. After he knocked out Bonavena at 28 he said. "I'm a lot more mature and stronger now. Before I would hit people, bop, bop, bop bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, about 300 times and they wouldn't fall. Now I have the stopping power to knock people out who Joe Frazier couldn't hurt or knock down. I'm faster than ever, but with big Heavyweight power now. Frazier is not a big, tall, or fast Heavyweight like me. He's in trouble."

Ali fought guys in the 70's who didn't exist in the 60's... Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Foreman, and Young were a few levels above, Terrell, Mildenberger, Cooper, Williams, and Folley... Heavyweights were much better all around than existed in the 60's ... and Ali took a few losses.

Where did you pull the Ali quote from? Your mangled anus?

[Ambling Alp II]

I still find it curious that in a supposedly great era Leon Spinks could become undisputed heavyweight champion. You didn't have anything like that happen in the 50s, Spinks only had 7 fights when he won the title. Also, I would have expected Ali would not have remained champion after Manilla if the era was as great as people claim. Would the Ali of 1976 or 1977 beat Walcott, Charles, Marciano, etc?

What version of Walcott? The one that rolled over against Marciano in their rematch? Same with Charles.

Up until 1976, Ali would almost beat any version of Charles, Marciano or Walcott.

[Ambling Alp II]

I also thinks Charles run from 1976 to 1951 is being underrated by people. Surely his consistency over such a period should count for something in his rankings regardless of what happened afterwards? Ali lost 3 of his last 4 fights but people generally don't obsess over these fights.

I assume you meant 1946-1951. Well technically, if you are just counting the 1950s then no, his fights from 1946-1949 don't count.

If you are looking at his whole career and deciding where he deserves to be rated, then of course the heavyweight fights from 1946-1951 counts. All of his fights up to the 2nd Marciano fight count. The good has to be weighed against the bad just like anyone else.

[Cojimar 1946]

I am referring to them when they were champions. The Walcott of 1951-52, Marciano 52-55, Patterson 56-59, Charles 49-51. I would think these guys would be favored to beat Ali post-Manilla.

[Ambling Alp II]

That is certainly possible. He was declining after that fight. 1976 would have been close fights. Certainly by 1978, at their best, they would have probably have beaten Ali.

[punchoutsb]

I am also curious as to why the 70s in particular are singled out as a great era. I think most people would pick the Ali of the mid-60s to beat any heavyweight from the 70s (the 70s Ali would lose to the 60s version). Wouldn't that make the 60s superior to the 70s on a who beats who basis?

Ali himself wouldn't even make that pick. After he knocked out Bonavena at 28 he said. "I'm a lot more mature and stronger now. Before I would hit people, bop, bop, bop bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, about 300 times and they wouldn't fall. Now I have the stopping power to knock people out who Joe Frazier couldn't hurt or knock down. I'm faster than ever, but with big Heavyweight power now. Frazier is not a big, tall, or fast Heavyweight like me. He's in trouble."

Ali fought guys in the 70's who didn't exist in the 60's... Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Foreman, and Young were a few levels above, Terrell, Mildenberger, Cooper, Williams, and Folley... Heavyweights were much better all around than existed in the 60's ... and Ali took a few losses.

Where did you pull the Ali quote from? Your mangled anus?

[Ezzard]

I still find it curious that in a supposedly great era Leon Spinks could become undisputed heavyweight champion. You didn't have anything like that happen in the 50s, Spinks only had 7 fights when he won the title. Also, I would have expected Ali would not have remained champion after Manilla if the era was as great as people claim. Would the Ali of 1976 or 1977 beat Walcott, Charles, Marciano, etc?

Ali has transcended the sport and made a lot of money for promoters etc... He could have easily lost a decision here or there. Even by Norton III he was in steep decline. He held the title and simply outworked by Spinks.

But the magazines of the day did not believe the 70s to be a golden era and pretty much agree with your sentiment above.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't think many people would argue that a past his prime Ali would have been in trouble against a prime Charles, Walcott, Marciano. That doesn't mean at all that the 1950s were as good as the 1970s Watch the fights. It's not exactly rocket science here.

[davie]

I am also curious as to why the 70s in particular are singled out as a great era. I think most people would pick the Ali of the mid-60s to beat any heavyweight from the 70s (the 70s Ali would lose to the 60s version). Wouldn't that make the 60s superior to the 70s on a who beats who basis?

Ali himself wouldn't even make that pick. After he knocked out Bonavena at 28 he said. "I'm a lot more mature and stronger now. Before I would hit people, bop, bop, bop bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, about 300 times and they wouldn't fall. Now I have the stopping power to knock people out who Joe Frazier couldn't hurt or knock down. I'm faster than ever, but with big Heavyweight power now. Frazier is not a big, tall, or fast Heavyweight like me. He's in trouble."

Ali fought guys in the 70's who didn't exist in the 60's... Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Foreman, and Young were a few levels above, Terrell, Mildenberger, Cooper, Williams, and Folley... Heavyweights were much better all around than existed in the 60's ... and Ali took a few losses.

Where did you pull the Ali quote from? Your mangled anus?

It's a commonly known fact that from 67-72 Ali played at Kalans squash club, it was considered great cardio training for a boxer and helped keep Ali in shape during his exile.
Being that Kalan was quite comfortably the best player at the club and Ali the second best athlete (Wilt of course was the perfect physical specimen for the squash court), they were often paired up or met at the latter stages of the monthly tournament.
During the half time break they would often talk boxing, Ali confiding in Kalan, seeking his approval, sharing his thoughts on all things pugistic. This is where he shared the above nugget of wisdom.

[punchoutsb]

Ali himself wouldn't even make that pick. After he knocked out Bonavena at 28 he said. "I'm a lot more mature and stronger now. Before I would hit people, bop, bop, bop bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, about 300 times and they wouldn't fall. Now I have the stopping power to knock people out who Joe Frazier couldn't hurt or knock down. I'm faster than ever, but with big Heavyweight power now. Frazier is not a big, tall, or fast Heavyweight like me. He's in trouble."

Ali fought guys in the 70's who didn't exist in the 60's... Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Foreman, and Young were a few levels above, Terrell, Mildenberger, Cooper, Williams, and Folley... Heavyweights were much better all around than existed in the 60's ... and Ali took a few losses.

Where did you pull the Ali quote from? Your mangled anus?

It's a commonly known fact that from 67-72 Ali played at Kalans squash club, it was considered great cardio training for a boxer and helped keep Ali in shape during his exile.
Being that Kalan was quite comfortably the best player at the club and Ali the second best athlete (Wilt of course was the perfect physical specimen for the squash court), they were often paired up or met at the latter stages of the monthly tournament.
During the half time break they would often talk boxing, Ali confiding in Kalan, seeking his approval, sharing his thoughts on all things pugistic. This is where he shared the above nugget of wisdom.

Was that also where Kalan heard Wilts deep singing voice in the shower? Or did that happen somewhere else?

[Tomasino]

Where did you pull the Ali quote from? Your mangled anus?

It's a commonly known fact that from 67-72 Ali played at Kalans squash club, it was considered great cardio training for a boxer and helped keep Ali in shape during his exile.
Being that Kalan was quite comfortably the best player at the club and Ali the second best athlete (Wilt of course was the perfect physical specimen for the squash court), they were often paired up or met at the latter stages of the monthly tournament.
During the half time break they would often talk boxing, Ali confiding in Kalan, seeking his approval, sharing his thoughts on all things pugistic. This is where he shared the above nugget of wisdom.

Was that also where Kalan heard Wilts deep singing voice in the shower? Or did that happen somewhere else?

No one knows for sure where love first blossomed between those two supermen, the only certainty is that it did. Wilton went so far as to make up preposterous tales of his womanising in order to cover up the truth.

[Tomasino]

Ali himself wouldn't even make that pick. After he knocked out Bonavena at 28 he said. "I'm a lot more mature and stronger now. Before I would hit people, bop, bop, bop bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, about 300 times and they wouldn't fall. Now I have the stopping power to knock people out who Joe Frazier couldn't hurt or knock down. I'm faster than ever, but with big Heavyweight power now. Frazier is not a big, tall, or fast Heavyweight like me. He's in trouble."

Ali fought guys in the 70's who didn't exist in the 60's... Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Foreman, and Young were a few levels above, Terrell, Mildenberger, Cooper, Williams, and Folley... Heavyweights were much better all around than existed in the 60's ... and Ali took a few losses.

Where did you pull the Ali quote from? Your mangled anus?

It's a commonly known fact that from 67-72 Ali played at Kalans squash club, it was considered great cardio training for a boxer and helped keep Ali in shape during his exile.
Being that Kalan was quite comfortably the best player at the club and Ali the second best athlete (Wilt of course was the perfect physical specimen for the squash court), they were often paired up or met at the latter stages of the monthly tournament.
During the half time break they would often talk boxing, Ali confiding in Kalan, seeking his approval, sharing his thoughts on all things pugistic. This is where he shared the above nugget of wisdom.

Its all starting to make some sense now, thanks Davie.

[Kalan]

I am also curious as to why the 70s in particular are singled out as a great era. I think most people would pick the Ali of the mid-60s to beat any heavyweight from the 70s (the 70s Ali would lose to the 60s version). Wouldn't that make the 60s superior to the 70s on a who beats who basis?

Ali himself wouldn't even make that pick. After he knocked out Bonavena at 28 he said. "I'm a lot more mature and stronger now. Before I would hit people, bop, bop, bop bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, about 300 times and they wouldn't fall. Now I have the stopping power to knock people out who Joe Frazier couldn't hurt or knock down. I'm faster than ever, but with big Heavyweight power now. Frazier is not a big, tall, or fast Heavyweight like me. He's in trouble."

Ali fought guys in the 70's who didn't exist in the 60's... Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Foreman, and Young were a few levels above, Terrell, Mildenberger, Cooper, Williams, and Folley... Heavyweights were much better all around than existed in the 60's ... and Ali took a few losses.

Where did you pull the Ali quote from? Your mangled anus?

You have a mangled brain that only thinks about anuses.. That where your head is up 24/7.. Ali made those comments following his fight with Bonavena as he prepared for Frazier -- in one of the hundreds of interviews he did leading up to the biggest fight in a generation.. I read many of them because I read everything about Boxing.. It might not be verbatim, but the quote about "bop bop bop bop bop about 300 times and they wouldn't fall." and the comment about his retained speed and increased power are very close to dead on.. Ali was still in his 20's and he was more mature.. So his comments made perfect sense

[Cojimar 1946]

Somehow I think that if someone like Spinks had become champion in the 1950s (especially with only 7 pro fights) people would immediately bring it up as undeniable proof that the 50s were a terrible era for heavyweights. Yet because it happened in the 70s people are just ignoring it (maybe because it conflicts with their preconceived notions which they are unwilling to reconsider). People should be willing to look at evidence objectively even if it clashes with their beliefs.

As far as eras go, I think the 1980s heavyweights scene is also underrated. People talk as if the 70s were better than the 80s but I think if you actually look at who was around each year most people would pick the late 80s over the late 70s.

[Cojimar 1946]

As far as a past-prime Ali having trouble with Walcott, Charles, etc it absolutely is relevant because Ali was still champion from 1975-78 despite his decline. If guys like Walcott, Charles, etc can beat this version of Ali (as seems likely) than it seems they would be able to rise to the very top of the division in the 70s.

[Kalan]

As far as a past-prime Ali having trouble with Walcott, Charles, etc it absolutely is relevant because Ali was still champion from 1975-78 despite his decline. If guys like Walcott, Charles, etc can beat this version of Ali (as seems likely) than it seems they would be able to rise to the very top of the division in the 70s.

The 70's had a lot of weak challengers... Not only Spinks, but Evangelista, Coopman, Dunn, Wepner, Bugner, Daniels, and others... But if you look at the 1950's the challengers were even worse.. Cockell, LaStraza, Moore, Rademacher, McNeeley, Harris, London, and other undersized or unskilled guys.. I think the fact that Ingemar Johansson won the title, even though he was a very charismatic guy, speaks to the level of competition.

A prime Sonny Liston, circa '57 or '58, would have destroyed Patterson if he got his Title Fight at an appropriate time.

[Ambling Alp II]

As far as a past-prime Ali having trouble with Walcott, Charles, etc it absolutely is relevant because Ali was still champion from 1975-78 despite his decline. If guys like Walcott, Charles, etc can beat this version of Ali (as seems likely) than it seems they would be able to rise to the very top of the division in the 70s.

Not in at least the first 6 years of the decade. I know you are desperate to come up with something to favor the 1950s, but you are grasping at straws. Ali losing to Spinks doesn't somehow make the 1950s better. By then Holmes was better than anyone from the 1950s anyway.

[BoxBuzz]

As far as a past-prime Ali having trouble with Walcott, Charles, etc it absolutely is relevant because Ali was still champion from 1975-78 despite his decline. If guys like Walcott, Charles, etc can beat this version of Ali (as seems likely) than it seems they would be able to rise to the very top of the division in the 70s.

The 70's had a lot of weak challengers... Not only Spinks, but Evangelista, Coopman, Dunn, Wepner, Bugner, Daniels, and others... But if you look at the 1950's the challengers were even worse.. Cockell, LaStraza, Moore, Rademacher, McNeeley, Harris, London, and other undersized or unskilled guys.. I think the fact that Ingemar Johansson won the title, even though he was a very charismatic guy, speaks to the level of competition.

A prime Sonny Liston, circa '57 or '58, would have destroyed Patterson if he got his Title Fight at an appropriate time.

How much more destructive of Patterson could he have been? Patterson imploding before the first swing?
Maybe in this case, timing was not everything.

[Caractacus]

Dude the man is Famous still after all these years.
I hear his radio commercial on every-man inventors getting patents all the time.

[Kalan]

As far as a past-prime Ali having trouble with Walcott, Charles, etc it absolutely is relevant because Ali was still champion from 1975-78 despite his decline. If guys like Walcott, Charles, etc can beat this version of Ali (as seems likely) than it seems they would be able to rise to the very top of the division in the 70s.

The 70's had a lot of weak challengers... Not only Spinks, but Evangelista, Coopman, Dunn, Wepner, Bugner, Daniels, and others... But if you look at the 1950's the challengers were even worse.. Cockell, LaStraza, Moore, Rademacher, McNeeley, Harris, London, and other undersized or unskilled guys.. I think the fact that Ingemar Johansson won the title, even though he was a very charismatic guy, speaks to the level of competition.

A prime Sonny Liston, circa '57 or '58, would have destroyed Patterson if he got his Title Fight at an appropriate time.

How much more destructive of Patterson could he have been? Patterson imploding before the first swing?
Maybe in this case, timing was not everything.

Timing was certainly everything in this case... Liston wouldn't have beaten Patterson much faster if he got his shot a few years earlier -- but he would have been able to defend the title for a few more years.. If he won the title in 1958 for instance, 6 more years before he started aging badly.. He spend a few years in prison which also cut into his prime, so I think Liston could have been one of the better Heavyweight Champions had his life fortunes been a little more favorable. He had 25 siblings and used a birth certificate of a younger brother also named Charles, who was about 10 years younger. In some states they were trying to institute age limits for boxers -- and in California they had an age limit of 36 for a few years -- so to be safe that's what Jack Nilon suggested.