Is Henry ARMSTRONG an all-time great LIGHTWEIGHT???

[elmersalsa]

I took a good look of the records of the greatest lightweight fighers in history. In all my searches, I have seen great records of sensational lightweights like Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Freddie Welsh, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, Roberto Duran, Joe Brown and Pernell Whitaker that at their weight class (135 pounds), they were the very best.

But it always bugs me and may I say intrigues me is that how come do I see Henry Armstrong in the list of great lightweights when he:
1. Fought ONLY 16 times at 135
2. His reign as champ was brief.
3. He ONLY beat a couple of top notch fighters in that weight class.

When I see Henry's record at 126 and 147 is more IMPRESSIVE than his record at 135.

Is Henry Armstrong a top 20 lightweight??? Your opinions and why???

[silkov]

Armstrong was possibly the greatest Lightweight ever... he was tight at 126 but had to beef himself up to get past 135... for most of his welterweight reign he was little more than a lightweight... remember he was robbed of his Lightweight title too... otherwise he would have reigned much longer and perhaps made as many defences at 135 that he made at welter... Armstrong is definately top 3 in the Lightweight class...

[surf-bat]

I took a good look of the records of the greatest lightweight fighers in history. In all my searches, I have seen great records of sensational lightweights like Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Freddie Welsh, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, Roberto Duran, Joe Brown and Pernell Whitaker that at their weight class (135 pounds), they were the very best.

But it always bugs me and may I say intrigues me is that how come do I see Henry Armstrong in the list of great lightweights when he:
1. Fought ONLY 16 times at 135
2. His reign as champ was brief.
3. He ONLY beat a couple of top notch fighters in that weight class.

When I see Henry's record at 126 and 147 is more IMPRESSIVE than his record at 135.

Is Henry Armstrong a top 20 lightweight??? Your opinions and why???

I think he would have been the greatest Lightweight ever had he stayed there. Unfortunately, his resume there is limited and doesn't have the glittering credentials like a Benny Leonard or a Joe Gans.

Think about this question: what LW champs would you pick to BEAT Armstrong?? Not many here. Maybe Duran and that's about it...and that's only a maybe.

[silkov]

I took a good look of the records of the greatest lightweight fighers in history. In all my searches, I have seen great records of sensational lightweights like Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Freddie Welsh, Ike Williams, Carlos Ortiz, Roberto Duran, Joe Brown and Pernell Whitaker that at their weight class (135 pounds), they were the very best.

But it always bugs me and may I say intrigues me is that how come do I see Henry Armstrong in the list of great lightweights when he:
1. Fought ONLY 16 times at 135
2. His reign as champ was brief.
3. He ONLY beat a couple of top notch fighters in that weight class.

When I see Henry's record at 126 and 147 is more IMPRESSIVE than his record at 135.

Is Henry Armstrong a top 20 lightweight??? Your opinions and why???

I think he would have been the greatest Lightweight ever had he stayed there. Unfortunately, his resume there is limited and doesn't have the glittering credentials like a Benny Leonard or a Joe Gans.

Think about this question: what LW champs would you pick to BEAT Armstrong?? Not many here. Maybe Duran and that's about it...and that's only a maybe.

Well the thing is that Armstrong was a natural 135 fighter for most of his career and the fact that he spent so much time beating guys naturally heavier shows his greatness... when thinking about the 135 fighters who may have beaten him I think of just Gans, Leonard or Duran and I'd give ARmstrong a good chance at all these guys... very tough fights either way...

[pete]

Excellent observation Silkov,about Hank's weight as welter champ,I noticed that too a while back.Armstrong's best weight was 135 and I always think of him as a lightweight even though he had around 20 welter defenses.

[elmersalsa]

Thanks for your replies my friends. I really appreciate some of the views. I need to know who did Henry beat at 135???

I would like the whole forum to examine the career of Armstrong, who is probably in back of my mind, is the greatest fighter, pound per pound of all time...What a fighter he was, just by looking at his resume.

[barry]

Armstrong was just simply incredible. I have a hard time putting Robinson ahead of Armstrong as the greatest ever P4P, so I have them tied at number one. Although he did not have a lot of title fights at 135 Armstrong still faced and beat a slew of great and very, very good lightweights. At his best I would have a hard time giving anyone an edge over him. I would love to see a fight between Armstrong and Duran, but I think Armstrong wins a unanimous, but hard fought decision.

[elmersalsa]

Does anyone has The Ring rankings of the greatest lightweights of all time issue published in 2001???

I think it had Hasim Rahman on the cover. If anyone has that issue, please bring it forth in the forum.

[DoubleM]

Armstrong was just simply incredible. I have a hard time putting Robinson ahead of Armstrong as the greatest ever P4P, so I have them tied at number one. Although he did not have a lot of title fights at 135 Armstrong still faced and beat a slew of great and very, very good lightweights. At his best I would have a hard time giving anyone an edge over him. I would love to see a fight between Armstrong and Duran, but I think Armstrong wins a unanimous, but hard fought decision.

I rate Armstrong #1, over Robinson. To be quite honest, while Robinson performed well for a lot longer, he accomplished nothing of the same electricity as Armstrong.

Hurricane Hank held the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles simultaneously, defended his lightweight title once and his welterweight title eighteen times, often while weighing significantly less than his opponent. He once defended the welterweight title five times in less than a month. Armstrong went 59-1-1 over three years against excellent opposition, both the draw and loss being highly controversial. On film he is simply unstoppable, a human tank with the speed and agility to match his durability and firepower. I rate Armstrong the best featherweight in history, the second best lightweight, and the sixth best welterweight.

[barry]

The last greatest light weights list put out by Ring is decent, which it was published in the Sept. 2001 issue with Rahman on the cover.

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Joe Gans
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Bob Montgomery
10. Beau Jack
11. Lou Ambers
12. Freddie Welsh
13. Shane Mosley
14. Henry Armstrong
15. Esteban DeJesus
16. Ken Buchanan
17. Jack McAuliffe
18. Ismael Laguna
19. Ad Wolgast
20. Oscar De La Hoya

[TheRiverCityHippy]

The last greatest light weights list put out by Ring is decent, which it was published in the Sept. 2001 issue with Rahman on the cover.

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Joe Gans
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Bob Montgomery
10. Beau Jack
11. Lou Ambers
12. Freddie Welsh
13. Shane Mosley
14. Henry Armstrong
15. Esteban DeJesus
16. Ken Buchanan
17. Jack McAuliffe
18. Ismael Laguna
19. Ad Wolgast
20. Oscar De La Hoya

interesting to see esteban dejesus in there, he held the wbc strap at the same time duran held the wba title and their careers seemed to be heading on a collision course for ages.
when they finally fought the underdog dejesus put duran down in the first round (i think that was the first time duran was ever on the canvas as well) but duran stopped him in the 12th.

[Chuck1052]

I think that Henry Armstrong would be a great subject
for a well-researched biography. Yes, he ranks among
the top "pound-for-pound" fighters of all time because
he was an unstoppable force during the late 1930s,
brushing aside so many capable fighters despite
being much too active.

- Chuck Johnston

[pete]

He wrote his autobiography,I remember getting it from the library years ago.I'll have to see about getting a copy off the net.

[barry]

I agree Chuck. Someone could write a really good, in-depth bio about Armstrong. I just purchased his autobiography off ebay, but it has not arrived yet, but that is the only complete book about Armstrong out there. Ezzard Charles would be another good candidate. Hell, there are no books about Charles, other than the boxing history books, but they all always say the same thing over and over, time and time again.

[Collins2000]

The last greatest light weights list put out by Ring is decent, which it was published in the Sept. 2001 issue with Rahman on the cover.

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Joe Gans
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Bob Montgomery
10. Beau Jack
11. Lou Ambers
12. Freddie Welsh
13. Shane Mosley
14. Henry Armstrong
15. Esteban DeJesus
16. Ken Buchanan
17. Jack McAuliffe
18. Ismael Laguna
19. Ad Wolgast
20. Oscar De La Hoya

interesting to see esteban dejesus in there, he held the wbc strap at the same time duran held the wba title and their careers seemed to be heading on a collision course for ages.
when they finally fought the underdog dejesus put duran down in the first round (i think that was the first time duran was ever on the canvas as well) but duran stopped him in the 12th.

Didn't DeJesus also drop Duran in their first bout?

[barry]

>>>Didn't DeJesus also drop Duran in their first bout?<<<

Yeah, in the first round...stunning everyone at ringside!

[barry]

>>>DeJesus put Duran down in the first round of each of their first two bouts!<<<

I thought so, but wasn't positive about the second bout.

[elmersalsa]

Armstrong was just simply incredible. I have a hard time putting Robinson ahead of Armstrong as the greatest ever P4P, so I have them tied at number one. Although he did not have a lot of title fights at 135 Armstrong still faced and beat a slew of great and very, very good lightweights. At his best I would have a hard time giving anyone an edge over him. I would love to see a fight between Armstrong and Duran, but I think Armstrong wins a unanimous, but hard fought decision.

I rate Armstrong #1, over Robinson. To be quite honest, while Robinson performed well for a lot longer, he accomplished nothing of the same electricity as Armstrong.

Hurricane Hank held the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles simultaneously, defended his lightweight title once and his welterweight title eighteen times, often while weighing significantly less than his opponent. He once defended the welterweight title five times in less than a month. Armstrong went 59-1-1 over three years against excellent opposition, both the draw and loss being highly controversial. On film he is simply unstoppable, a human tank with the speed and agility to match his durability and firepower. I rate Armstrong the best featherweight in history, the second best lightweight, and the sixth best welterweight.

Great post men, great post!!!

Another thing about Armstrong is that he has the record of most titles defenses made in a year. He made 11 world title defenses of the welter crown in 1939. Now that's INCREDIBLE!!! Champs today defend their crowns maximum like 3 times or maybe less than that.

If someone mentions that Henry is the greatest fighter ever, I would not argue with that person one bit. He probably was. Fritzie Zivic told Henry taht he was the greatest fighter to ever walk on this earth after he beat Henry for the title in 1940.

Ah, another thing. I watch closely his record and YES!!! HE INDEED BELONGS WITH THE GREATEST LIGHTWEIGHTS IN HISTORY!!!

I got to apologize to everybody in this forum. Henry had 38 fights at 135, not 16 like I claimed he had. Thanks to boxrec.com fighter record archive, which is the best in the world, I saw that Armstrong beat 6 world champions and 6 hall of famers at lightweigt, and had a record at 135 lbs of 34-4, 31KOs. He definately is an all time lightweight. He beat more hall of famers and champions in this weight class (135 lbs) than at featherweight and welterweight.

At feather he beat 3 hof and 4 world champions. At welter, he beat 4 hof and 4 world champions. In all, Armstrong beat a total of 12 hall of famers and 15 world champions....Amazing!!!

[elmersalsa]

The last greatest light weights list put out by Ring is decent, which it was published in the Sept. 2001 issue with Rahman on the cover.

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Joe Gans
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Bob Montgomery
10. Beau Jack
11. Lou Ambers
12. Freddie Welsh
13. Shane Mosley
14. Henry Armstrong
15. Esteban DeJesus
16. Ken Buchanan
17. Jack McAuliffe
18. Ismael Laguna
19. Ad Wolgast
20. Oscar De La Hoya

Hey Barry, you are fantastic!!! Thank you for the list. I appreciate it.

Now you guys see why I love this forum??? It is the best in the world!!! The whole entire world!!!

[Chuck1052]

Think of this.......Henry Armstrong was a highly regarded
fighter for about a couple of years before hooking up with
Eddie Mead in 1936. If you don't believe me, take a look
at Ring Magazine's annual ratings for the year of 1934.

Despite his high ranking, Armstrong was making very
small purses before 1936. Of course, the GREAT
DEPRESSION hit professional boxing in California
(also in the rest of the United States) like a ton of
bricks. As a result, the average gate receipts at the
vast majority in California. boxing clubs were a
faction of what they were during the 1920s.

To compound Armstrong's problems, the Hollywood
Legion Stadium, the most stable and most successful
boxing venue in California during the 1920s and 1930s,
didn't allow black boxers fight there until 1940. As
a result, Armstrong often fought for a purse of less
than $100. before 1936.

A big turning point for Armstrong was when Joe
Waterman started to turn things around at the
Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles after becoming
the matchmaker in late 1935. Waterman put on
weekly boxing shows on a regular basis at the
Olympic during his first stint at the famed venue,
drawing large crowds. Armstrong would be in
a number of main events at the Olympic over
the next few years.

Later in 1936, Waterman staged a main event
between Armstrong and Baby Arizmendi at the
baseball park of the Los Angeles Angels, Wrigley
Field. After Armstrong won the bout, his contract
was sold. Under new management, Armstrong
would start fighting in boxing venues located
in other parts of the United States and becoming
one of the best fighters in boxing history.

In recent books on boxing, one doesn't find ANY
mention of Joe Waterman's importance in regards
to Henry Armstrong becoming a big gate attraction
in the boxing world. Of course, Waterman is largely
forgotten despite being one of the most highly
regarded boxing men of his day on the West Coast.

- Chuck Johnston

[barry]

I just started reading his autobiography last night. Anyone read it...and if so, what do they think about it?