World boxing history challenge Week 7 - Carlos Monzon

[davie]

I've chosen Carlos Monzon for this weeks challenge, another fighter I have perhaps not seen enough of and routinely rank lower than most fight fans.
So here is his 1970 FOTY in his first bout against Nimo Benvenuti

https://youtu.be/Op3V6ffKXeY

[davie]

Previous weeks bouts
Week 1 - Leonard/Hearns.- http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=207995
Week 2 - Olivarez/Castillo 1 - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208158
Week 3 - Emile Griffith vs Nino Benvenuti - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208339
Week 4 - Salvador Sanchez vs Danny Lopez - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208467
Week 5 - Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208651
Week 6 - Henry Armstrong - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=208877


Main thread - http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... e#p4571725

[davie]

For the supplementary bouts I've decided to avoid his bouts vs great welterweights Emile Griffith and Jose Napoles. Firstly because I'm sure I've seen them all and secondly the prevailing opinion tends to be size is the main factor and I can't be arsed with another big man vs wee man debate.

So here are 2 that come highly recommended.

Valdez II
https://youtu.be/kWltFSBJVf8

And Briscoe II
https://youtu.be/mLvQBmmbgVE

[Kalan]

I've chosen Carlos Monzon for this weeks challenge, another fighter I have perhaps not seen enough of and routinely rank lower than most fight fans.
So here is his 1970 FOTY in his first bout against Nimo Benvenuti

https://youtu.be/Op3V6ffKXeY

Just how I remembered it. Monzon had to fight both Benvenuti—who was clinching continuously—and the referee..

The referee often yelled for a break—and had his hands on the fighters—when Monzon had 1 or both hands free to punch.. Monzon quickly learned the referee was going to allow endless clinching and hitting on the break.. An exorbitant amount of rabbit punching and holding and hitting was allowed without reprimands.. Monzon calmly beat the wide open Benvenuti relentlessly and then went for the kill when the accumulation of punishment left the Italian helpless.. Nino retreated like crazy, Monzon stayed on him and smashed him out with a short right.

[handsofstone]

Monzon dominated Benvenuti in this fight,the right hand he KO'd him with was a peach,i remember Benvenuti landing a good shot himself as he got put down

Both Monzon/Valdes fights were competitive,Valdes put Monzon down early with a right but Monzon was able to keep him under control throughtout, Valdes fights like a mini Frazier, bobbing and weaving and bringing that left hook over the top

Great fighter Monzon, the only fights ive seen of his are his doubles with Benvenuti and Valdes, I'm gonna watch the Napoles fight soon

[davie]

Monzon vs Benvenuti

1. 10 - 9 Monzon
2. 10 - 10 even
3. 10 - 9 Monzon
4. 10 - 9 Monzon
5. 9 - 10 Benvenuti
6. 10 - 9 Monzon
7. 10 - 9 Monzon
8. 10 - 10 even
9. 9 - 10 Benvenuti
10. 10 - 9 Monzon
11. 10 - 9 Monzon
12. TKO

108-103 Monzon at the time of the stoppage.
Felt the 2 Benvenuti rounds were very close while there were 2 or 3 that I scored to Monzon that were clear rounds
Good fight and a top performance by Monzon, topped with a solid finish


Minor gripe, did you notice the ref walk between the fighters a few times. He had a habit of splitting the fighters from a clinch, then when they were at a distance to fight he stepped between them to position himself on the other side of the action. He'd only have had himself to blame if he took a crack in the jaw

[davie]

Watched the second Benvenuti fight.
Strange finish, apparently you couldn't throw the towel in in a championship fight

Both knockdowns were legit but neither looked to have Nino hurt. Balance playing as much of a factor as anything, but legit knockdowns none the less
Looked like Monzon was going for the kill from about the second minute of round 2 and maybe the writing was on the wall but I was surprised at the towel coming in, I must say

[Seamus]

How Monzon v Benvenuti I ever got Ring's Fight Of The Year is beyond me. It was almost totally one sided and I believe I had Nino winning one round.

[davie]

How Monzon v Benvenuti I ever got Ring's Fight Of The Year is beyond me. It was almost totally one sided and I believe I had Nino winning one round.

It was a good scrap but I'd be amazed if it was in the top 10 from that year

[handsofstone]

Watched the second Benvenuti fight.
Strange finish, apparently you couldn't throw the towel in in a championship fight

Both knockdowns were legit but neither looked to have Nino hurt. Balance playing as much of a factor as anything, but legit knockdowns none the less
Looked like Monzon was going for the kill from about the second minute of round 2 and maybe the writing was on the wall but I was surprised at the towel coming in, I must say

I think Benvenuti's corner were maybe worried about him getting hurt badly going into the fight and were quick to make sure he wasn't gonna get KO'd or a badly beaten up

[davie]

Watched the second Benvenuti fight.
Strange finish, apparently you couldn't throw the towel in in a championship fight

Both knockdowns were legit but neither looked to have Nino hurt. Balance playing as much of a factor as anything, but legit knockdowns none the less
Looked like Monzon was going for the kill from about the second minute of round 2 and maybe the writing was on the wall but I was surprised at the towel coming in, I must say

I think Benvenuti's corner were maybe worried about him getting hurt badly going into the fight and were quick to make sure he wasn't gonna get KO'd or a badly beaten up

I think the fact that Benvenuti sprung to his feet and kicked the towel out of the ring before the ref would have counted to 4 speaks volumes.

His corner would have been as well not letting him in the ring in the first place.
Shitebags!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Niño was a great boxer, but he was dropped hard on his butt and pitched forward on his face. He barely peels himself off the canvas after 10 sec when his trainer holding a towel rushes the ref to stop the fight.

Niño is still bent double out on his feet as he stumbles around to almost pitch himself out of the ring. Had he been a heavyweight when he hit the ropes he would've flipped over to land in the arena.

Good call by the trainer as it looked like the ref was going to let it continue. Monzon was just another two levels above the average great is what makes this fight noteworthy, so thanks for the reminder. I scored it 2 even rds with the rest by Monzon who keep the pace and pressure rolling.

[elmersalsa]

How Monzon v Benvenuti I ever got Ring's Fight Of The Year is beyond me. It was almost totally one sided and I believe I had Nino winning one round.

It was a good scrap but I'd be amazed if it was in the top 10 from that year

What fight in 1970 was better? Maybe Ken Buchanan vs s Ismael Laguna I or Ruben Olivares vs Chucho Castillo I fights?

[Kalan]

Monzon was great... Benvenuti wasn't... The fight was marred by endless holding by Benvenuti.. and a referee who called for breaks when Monzon had 1 or both hands free to punch.. Monzon showed amazing focus and relentlessness and that's why it was FOTY.. He was determined to get Nino out of there.

[davie]

Monzon was great... Benvenuti wasn't... The fight was marred by endless holding by Benvenuti.. and a referee who called for breaks when Monzon had 1 or both hands free to punch.. Monzon showed amazing focus and relentlessness and that's why it was FOTY.. He was determined to get Nino out of there.

Did you notice Monzon getting warned in the early rounds for repeatedly ramming his shoulder in Ninos face, he was also quite reckless leaving his head in on the way in and seem happy to throw punches at what ever target presented itself too.
Is he not on your 'dirty list'? No?

[davie]

How Monzon v Benvenuti I ever got Ring's Fight Of The Year is beyond me. It was almost totally one sided and I believe I had Nino winning one round.

It was a good scrap but I'd be amazed if it was in the top 10 from that year

What fight in 1970 was better? Maybe Ken Buchanan vs s Ismael Laguna I or Ruben Olivares vs Chucho Castillo I fights?

When I said that, I didn't say it with a long list of great fights in mind.

More just a general statement. It was a good fight but by no means great, i'd be amazed if there were not 5-10 top level bouts that were more entertaining

[Kalan]

Monzon was great... Benvenuti wasn't... The fight was marred by endless holding by Benvenuti.. and a referee who called for breaks when Monzon had 1 or both hands free to punch.. Monzon showed amazing focus and relentlessness and that's why it was FOTY.. He was determined to get Nino out of there.

Did you notice Monzon getting warned in the early rounds for repeatedly ramming his shoulder in Ninos face, he was also quite reckless leaving his head in on the way in and seem happy to throw punches at what ever target presented itself too.
Is he not on your 'dirty list'? No?

What other fight did Monzon fight that dirty in??? ... When you're facing a dirty bird, and the referee isn't doing crap -- you have to start fouling back.

[davie]

Monzon was great... Benvenuti wasn't... The fight was marred by endless holding by Benvenuti.. and a referee who called for breaks when Monzon had 1 or both hands free to punch.. Monzon showed amazing focus and relentlessness and that's why it was FOTY.. He was determined to get Nino out of there.

Did you notice Monzon getting warned in the early rounds for repeatedly ramming his shoulder in Ninos face, he was also quite reckless leaving his head in on the way in and seem happy to throw punches at what ever target presented itself too.
Is he not on your 'dirty list'? No?

What other fight did Monzon fight that dirty in??? ... When you're facing a dirty bird, and the referee isn't doing crap -- you have to start fouling back.

I haven't seen all his fights so I couldn't say for certain but I just wondered if you judged Monzon the way you did others that you display an obvious dislike of....

[davie]

Monzon vs Valdez

1. 10 -9 Monzon
2. 8 - 10 Valdez
3. 9 - 10 Valdez
4. 10 - 9 Monzon
5. 10 - 9 Monzon
6. Round missing but reported as being "won by Monzon!" by the commentator
7. 10 - 9 Monzon
8. 9 - 10 Valdez
9. 10 - 9 Monzon
10. 10 - 9 Monzon (almost a 10-8)
11. Round missing but reported as being "all Monzon!" by the commentator
12. 9 - 10 Valdez
13. 9 - 10 Valdez
14. 10 - 9 Monzon
15. 10 - 9 Monzon

124 - 122 Monzon going on the 13 rounds I was able to score. Would be 2 rounds wider going by the commentators assessment of rounds 6 and 11.

I was impressed with Monzon here. My main criticism of Monzon in the past has been that he is not the most aesthetically pleasing fighter to watch, I know that there are no points for artistic impression in boxing, but a stylist Carlos was not, he didn't have the most smooth flowing eye-pleasing style.
However in this bout I felt he put on a very good boxing display, not as aggressive as he often was and as a result I felt he was easier on the eye.
He controlled the dangerous and aggressive Valdez for the majority of this fight, his jab was extremely effective and the right hand, used more as a counter in this fight than usual, found it's target often enough to do damage.

my score card gave it to Monzon by 2, potentially 4 with the 2 missing rounds but that never told the full story. Valdez was competitive but like the Monzon vs Benvenuti bout, I found the Valdez rounds I gave were harder to score (except the 2nd of course)
Whereas there were a good few I gave Monzon by a comfortable margin when he looked in complete control. The damage to Valdez face also told a story of the punishment Monzon dished out.

I think this is as impressed as I've been with Monzon, especially given that this was his final hoorah at 35

[BoxBuzz]

He was perhaps history's greatest ring general. He had a 6th sense about what to do to win a fight.

And he seemed to ALWAYS enjoy the give and take.

He rose to the occasion in every struggle, and did not seem to need to "step on the gas" as he operated decidedly, deliberately, with intent and fully cognizant of every ring moment.

He was always "here and now" within every round. Not worrying about what took place in the last round, not concerned about what might take place in the next round.

Rarely looking for a KO, but looking to "manage and dominate" and if the KO comes, that would be "managed" as well.

Closest to a machine you're ever going to see. I imagine he would rise to Greb or Hagler's level as well.

Cmon.....Hagler was a fighter that Duran almost beat, and that Ray Leonard beat. Carlos is simply a bridge to far for most any MW....including Greb and GGG.

Not saying it couldn't happen. Anyone can be beaten, and certainly Monzon lost some rounds....so if you can lose a round, you can lose a fight.

But in my opinion, he is always the safest bet against any MW......and probably as high as most of the LHW"s save the top 10 or so.

A fight between Monzon and Greb would be one for the ages......however it could not appear on film. Due to the fact that there is no film or videotape every developed that could contain Greb's fighting image/s.

[davie]

Monzon vs Hagler is always the middleweight comparison for me. Both long reigning, dominant career middleweights

I've always favoured Hagler but that does come with a few "buts". I'm a big Marv fan, I've watched probably every televised bout he's been in and enjoy watching him. I haven't seen nearly enough of Monzon and I often don't particularly enjoy watching his style as much (not that that detracts from how very good I realise he is)
I still lean towards a Marvelous win in this one but after watching that Valdez fight I must admit the gap is narrowing

I think my top 4 was Greb, Marv, SRR, Monzon. I think I might revise that and let Monzon creep up to third with the narrowest of Margins between him and Hagler

[Kalan]

Did you notice Monzon getting warned in the early rounds for repeatedly ramming his shoulder in Ninos face, he was also quite reckless leaving his head in on the way in and seem happy to throw punches at what ever target presented itself too.
Is he not on your 'dirty list'? No?

What other fight did Monzon fight that dirty in??? ... When you're facing a dirty bird, and the referee isn't doing crap -- you have to start fouling back.

I haven't seen all his fights so I couldn't say for certain but I just wondered if you judged Monzon the way you did others that you display an obvious dislike of....

You know...it's strange... There were boxers I liked to watch and boxers I didn't particularly like to watch. Some boxers who were the greatest people (like Nino and Ali) were guys who weren't that watchable. Some guys who weren't that friendly or fun (Monzon and Duran) were great to watch. Leonard was a very nice guy and Hagler wasn't particularly. Leonard was always watchable because he was always thinking. Hagler could fight a very pedestrian fight -- like with Duran, Geraldo, or Leonard, where there was no electricity to his work -- or he could turn it on like he did with Hearns.

[elmersalsa]

One thing about King Carlos was that if you were in the ring fighting him, he wasn't gonna play with you.

[elmersalsa]

The great Carlos Monzon was one of the smartest boxers ever. He was a thinking man's fighter. Always sure and aware of his surroundings. Great ring generalship and his expression never changed in a fight. He was like a rock. Expressionless. He could well be a serial killer sociopath. He gives me that impression.

[BoxBuzz]

The great Carlos Monzon was one of the smartest boxers ever. He was a thinking man's fighter. Always sure and aware of his surroundings. Great ring generalship and his expression never changed in a fight. He was like a rock. Expressionless. He could well be a serial killer sociopath. He gives me that impression.

Elmer, I think he gave his wife the same impression.