Best and worse at keeping in shape or training properly?

[Kalan]

]

Not to beat a dead horse, but "training properly" relates to much more than just getting your body strong and resistant to punishment.. Anybody who saw Tyson-Bruno II saw an overly muscular and vulnerable punching bag to the point where Tyson merely had to load up and throw ... It didn't look to me as if Bruno had done a lot of quality sparring and mitt work -- or a lot of speed work or defensive drills in preparation -- and he was too bulky

In Bruno's better fights he looked lighter, quicker, and less muscular -- but he tended to break down mentally when he was doing great.. Mental training is a very important part of it.. I thought he was ahead of Lewis when he was stopped in the 7th.. He looked quick and not too muscular. He and started well. His jabs, hooks and right counters were working nice. If he hung with that he would have scored the upset.

Lewis employed very dirty tactics to turn the tide -- rabbit punching; holding and hitting; extending his left and keeping it out there; then actually putting his left palm right in Bruno's face repeatedly and contemptuously -- to get hard blows in and him out of there. Unbelievably Lewis got away with severe palming without points being taken.. I've never seen anybody get away with that after hard warnings.. Bruno was making a great fight of it before that.. Lewis got 2 severe warnings for dirty fighting earlier, but none when he was doing the dirtiest work finishing Bruno off.

With all due respect nobody cares what something looks like to you. We would much rather take the word of guys who worked with Bruno, who KNOW, not THINK that he was a dedicated trainer who did everything that was asked of him, and indeed more.

Furthermore we are even less interested in you stating the obvious as though it is a revelation. We ALL know Frank Bruno is the epitome of hard work and dedication, prevailing over a complete lack of natural talent, combined with the inability to think under pressure, without you telling us.

Oh, to save you coming back with more nonsense don't confuse natural STRENGTH, with natural talent. Frank was so bad he had to be shown for months how to throw each punch in his armoury correctly. Know you know why he didn't attempt to throw multi shot combinations.

YOU don't care what it looks like to me, because I hold a different opinion from YOURS. The guys who worked with Bruno for some of his fights were unimaginative and didn't know how to get him ready for fights -- otherwise he wouldn't have been an overly muscular and vulnerable punching bag for Tyson-Bruno II.. Just as important as strength training and punching power are speed work, flexibility work, defensive drills, pad work, footwork, mental training, and overall skills development.. I don't know what Bruno was doing for his 2nd Tyson fight, but he didn't look ready coming into the ring ... and he wasn't ready.

[Bodyshot3]

YOU don't care what it looks like to me, because I hold a different opinion from YOURS. The guys who worked with Bruno for some of his fights were unimaginative and didn't know how to get him ready for fights -- otherwise he wouldn't have been an overly muscular and vulnerable punching bag for Tyson-Bruno II.. Just as important as strength training and punching power are speed work, flexibility work, defensive drills, pad work, footwork, mental training, and overall skills development.. I don't know what Bruno was doing for his 2nd Tyson fight, but he didn't look ready coming into the ring ... and he wasn't ready.

With due respect to you Kalan and your very gutsy determination to repeatedly defend yourself against the consensus; the above is still tripe.

Bruno had some of the best people in the business and at every point in his career. He was trained and conditioned by guys lke George Francis and Jimmy Tibbs who produced quality fighters from Conteh all the way through to Benn; makers of multiple, decent champions. Not numbskulls.

And there was no 'aberration' in Bruno's career where some gormless collection of amateurs suddenly got carte blanche to run the programme and who just bulked him up and hoped he'd be a monster.

The truth is that at every juncture those who worked with Bruno steadfastly tried to improve his boxing/mental hardness and had no concerns about his physical assets/work ethic.

If anything, the ongoing battle with Bruno was to get him away from roadwork/circuits (which he was addicted too) and become a better tactician and mentally more confident. Considering they were dealing with a fighter with (as yet) undiagnosed mental health issues; they did rather well.

[Counter-puncher]

Epic and beautifully polite takedown my friend

[Kalan]

YOU don't care what it looks like to me, because I hold a different opinion from YOURS. The guys who worked with Bruno for some of his fights were unimaginative and didn't know how to get him ready for fights -- otherwise he wouldn't have been an overly muscular and vulnerable punching bag for Tyson-Bruno II.. Just as important as strength training and punching power are speed work, flexibility work, defensive drills, pad work, footwork, mental training, and overall skills development.. I don't know what Bruno was doing for his 2nd Tyson fight, but he didn't look ready coming into the ring ... and he wasn't ready.

With due respect to you Kalan and your very gutsy determination to repeatedly defend yourself against the consensus; the above is still tripe.

Bruno had some of the best people in the business and at every point in his career. He was trained and conditioned by guys lke George Francis and Jimmy Tibbs who produced quality fighters from Conteh all the way through to Benn; makers of multiple, decent champions. Not numbskulls.

And there was no 'aberration' in Bruno's career where some gormless collection of amateurs suddenly got carte blanche to run the programme and who just bulked him up and hoped he'd be a monster.

The truth is that at every juncture those who worked with Bruno steadfastly tried to improve his boxing/mental hardness and had no concerns about his physical assets/work ethic.

If anything, the ongoing battle with Bruno was to get him away from roadwork/circuits (which he was addicted too) and become a better tactician and mentally more confident. Considering they were dealing with a fighter with (as yet) undiagnosed mental health issues; they did rather well.

Exceptionally well put Bodyshot. Unfortunately it will make no difference because Kalan believes all trainers, conditioners, nutritionists, and strategists are numb skulls in comparison to him, and his unique insight into the fight game.

He will just convince himself that big Franks lack of co ordination, imagination, ring IQ, and defense was purely down to him doing nothing in the gym except lift weights.

What a joke.

You're putting words in my mouth... Obviously Bruno did his boxing workout, but if you're bulking up that much you shift the program. You can't fight that heavy and muscular.. FB showed his potential in some of his fights like his 1993 fight with Lennox Lewis where he was using his weapons well and was showing some defensive smartness in some moments.. But he needs to do that for 12 rounds.. If he fought like that versus Tyson he has a better shot.. He broke down when Lewis started fouling him like crazy and getting away with murder.. Lewis was getting hit as well, but he had a massive will to win that couldn't be broken.. You had to break him by being better and ripping the referee for not calling time and taking points.. You have to get on the referees because they have their favorites too.

[Tomasino]

I don't know about that. The one that set up Rahman for the big right hand that followed it wasn't too shabby either.

Good shout; it was the perfect set up punch for the crunching finisher.

Cheers syntax, but for a guy who was capable of landing those left hooks, your observation that he was hesitant to use it very often is also spot on. I know if I had a shot like that in my armoury I'd be throwing it every opportunity I got. It was 8 years between the Bruno, and Rahman fights, and I'm not sure but I think he straightened Briggs' legs with a left hook too, not exactly making the best of his assets, at that rate.

Lewis used his left hook quite a few times against Mercer. He landed some great lefts to the body.

[Tomasino]

Cheers syntax, but for a guy who was capable of landing those left hooks, your observation that he was hesitant to use it very often is also spot on. I know if I had a shot like that in my armoury I'd be throwing it every opportunity I got. It was 8 years between the Bruno, and Rahman fights, and I'm not sure but I think he straightened Briggs' legs with a left hook too, not exactly making the best of his assets, at that rate.

Lewis used his left hook quite a few times against Mercer. He landed some great lefts to the body.

Fair play. I'll have to rewatch that fight. All I can remember was he couldn't dent Mercer's chin.

That's a fair recollection. I watched it two nights ago and scored it for Ray by a round. Tough night for Lennox.

[Tomasino]

Fair play. I'll have to rewatch that fight. All I can remember was he couldn't dent Mercer's chin.

That's a fair recollection. I watched it two nights ago and scored it for Ray by a round. Tough night for Lennox.

To be honest it wouldn't have bothered me if Ray Mercer had got the nod. It was a fight either man could make a case for being declared the winner as far as my old memory goes.

Aye defo. Good fight. I like it when Lennox is forced out of his jab and grab comfort zone.

[orbtastic]

Holyfield had the same issue and went to the body instead with hooks, although he dropped him in the 8th with a great couple of left hooks to the head. First KD of his career. Ironically Mercer had got himself into great shape as he had a habit of not really keeping in shape.

Hatton surely has to be the poster boy for keeping out of shape between fights? You have to know you're in trouble when the previous poster boy (Lloyd Honeyghan) calls you out on national radio and says it'll kill your career.

[Bodyshot3]

Hatton surely has to be the poster boy for keeping out of shape between fights? You have to know you're in trouble when the previous poster boy (Lloyd Honeyghan) calls you out on national radio and says it'll kill your career.

Lloyd did love a party, followed by another party and the ladies as well...probably still does

But there was that great period when he was supremely conditioned, fast and very strong indeed at welterweight.
For a short while he cut a very impressive figure as a fighter in tip-top shape.

I think Lloyd was a man of huge extremes - capable of immense dedication when he saw it was worthwhile - followed by some proper slacking.

Think he drove Duff around the proverbial bend - what Honeyghan am I going to get - and Duff and had pretty much seen it all.

[elmersalsa]

I would say it was definitely between Hatton and Duran with anyone else coming a very poor 3rd. Both those guys were only 5' 6" with 67" wingspans. Incredible when you think they could hit almost 200lbs between fights. In the case of Duran I read his manager ( somebody Ortiz I believe ) and Ray Arcel conspired to keep him busy just to stop him from blowing up due to food, and booze binges between fights. Something his detractors latch onto to try to discredit his record and achievements. But if there was one thing Roberto loved more than wine women and food it was the money to buy them with. So he more less fought anyone anywhere just for the dollars.

[Crease]

Worse at keeping in shape and training

James Toney.

Steve Collins tells stories about James not being responsible with his nutrition. One such tale is that James had sent a runner to go to Mcdonalds for him.

Where he had a cheeseburger meal after taking a couple of rounds off.

[Kalan]

Exceptionally well put Bodyshot. Unfortunately it will make no difference because Kalan believes all trainers, conditioners, nutritionists, and strategists are numb skulls in comparison to him, and his unique insight into the fight game.

He will just convince himself that big Franks lack of co ordination, imagination, ring IQ, and defense was purely down to him doing nothing in the gym except lift weights.

What a joke.

You're putting words in my mouth... Obviously Bruno did his boxing workout, but if you're bulking up that much you shift the program. You can't fight that heavy and muscular.. FB showed his potential in some of his fights like his 1993 fight with Lennox Lewis where he was using his weapons well and was showing some defensive smartness in some moments.. But he needs to do that for 12 rounds.. If he fought like that versus Tyson he has a better shot.. He broke down when Lewis started fouling him like crazy and getting away with murder.. Lewis was getting hit as well, but he had a massive will to win that couldn't be broken.. You had to break him by being better and ripping the referee for not calling time and taking points.. You have to get on the referees because they have their favorites too.

Do you know if I had your imagination I would be worth more than Stephen King. Suffice to say in 1993 the British public ( including Mickey Vann ) saw Frank Bruno as a big lovable dope. Conversely they saw Lennox Lewis as a Canadian using his British birth as a matter of convenience. If your stupid theory about Lewis " palming " and thumbing his way to victory over Vitali wasn't bad enough, this one really takes the biscuit.

Again it is well known by anyone, and everyone who had anything at all to do with boxing in Britain that Bruno was a prodigious trainer and his team had more trouble trying to stop him rather than encourage him into working at his game. He was the sort of guy that if you asked for 500 sit ups would do a thousand if he wasn't told to stop. It was the same with EVERY aspect of training and preparation for a fight.

For someone who professes to have so much knowledge of fighters and the fight game I am amazed that you are unable to spot the fact that Frank simply wasn't a natural fighter. He was totally manufactured, a big exceptionally strong guy with an extremely hard punch, but clueless as far knowing how to fight was concerned.

The greatest respect, and credit that can be given to Frank is he convinced himself that if he trained harder, and harder ( despite the advice of his handlers ) he would eventually become world champion, and he did at the 4th attempt.

You're full of crap again.. You gotta be freakin' BLIND.. Mickey Vann warned Lewis numerous times for fouling Bruno... Just before the stoppage he warned Lewis again to stop palming Bruno in the face.. He didn't take points because he was in Lewis's hip pocket.. Lewis knew Vann wasn't going to take points.. Because while Vann was warning Lewis and yelling at him, Lewis looked over at Bruno while Vann was talking to him.. Then he gave Vann a very tiny nod of his head like "ok man.. yeah yeah I get it man.. yeah, yeah, yeah, ok" Then Lewis went right back to palming Bruno in the face when Vann let him continue.

[Syntax Error]

Worse at keeping in shape and training

James Toney.

Steve Collins tells stories about James not being responsible with his nutrition. One such tale is that James had sent a runner to go to Mcdonalds for him.

Where he had a cheeseburger meal after taking a couple of rounds off.

James Toney is a disgrace.

Blessed with all that technical ability & a chin made of titanium & ended up being a fat laughing stock that fought on too long.

He had a remarkable career; a career that most other fighters wouldn't even dream of, but with his talent, he could have been an top line ATG.

[Crease]

James Toney is a disgrace.

Blessed with all that technical ability & a chin made of titanium & ended up being a fat laughing stock that fought on too long.
He had a remarkable career; a career that most other fighters wouldn't even dream of, but with his talent, he could have been an top line ATG.

People often talk about Roy Jones as being a "special talent" in fighting circles - and he was no doubt about that - but I believe he fulfilled his potential to a great degree.

Toney on the other hand was also a "special talent" - as I could consider him - yet didn't come anywhere close to being the fighter that he could have been.
And he lost professional fights to guys who'd struggle to make a good sparring partner for him in his prime.

[Controversial]

You're full of crap again.. You gotta be freakin' BLIND.. Mickey Vann warned Lewis numerous times for fouling Bruno...

He also warned Bruno for clubbing at the head whilst in the clinch and rabbit punching.

[Controversial]

James Toney.

Steve Collins tells stories about James not being responsible with his nutrition. One such tale is that James had sent a runner to go to Mcdonalds for him.

Where he had a cheeseburger meal after taking a couple of rounds off.

James Toney is a disgrace.

Blessed with all that technical ability & a chin made of titanium & ended up being a fat laughing stock that fought on too long.

He had a remarkable career; a career that most other fighters wouldn't even dream of, but with his talent, he could have been an top line ATG.

I couldn't agree more.

Toney was a far better " natural " fighter than Jones Jr, as evidenced by him NOT becoming a punchbag no matter what terrible shape he turned up
in, the way Jones did when the reflexes and athleticism went out the window. There are no sets of circumstances under which you can imagine Enzo, Lebedev, or Glenn Johnson putting Toney to sleep the way they did Jones.

Yeah Toney is a good example. He weighed as low as 157lb for one fight early in his career and 257lb for one near the end. I dread to think what his heaviest weight was out of training !!

[Crease]

Yeah Toney is a good example. He weighed as low as 157lb for one fight early in his career and 257lb for one near the end. I dread to think what his heaviest weight was out of training !!

Jeez, seeing the numbers there like that... That's a helluva stark contrast.

[elmersalsa]

The great Eusebio Pedroza was always in great shape no matter what. The same I could say about the great Emile Griffith. Always ready and in shape.

[Bodyshot3]

The great Eusebio Pedroza was always in great shape no matter what. The same I could say about the great Emile Griffith. Always ready and in shape.

Agreed about Pedroza

Have read McGuigan's superb book - 'Cyclone, My Story' - twice now and one of the most telling passages is that McGuigan and those around him were not lulled into believing that Pedroza was going to get old all of a sudden, be weight-drained or anything less than a huge, strong guy.

They prepared for a champ who was always going to make the weight and be freakishly big, powerful and come to the ring looking like a welter.

I saw this fight as a kid and read whatever papers my parents got in during the build-up and Pedroza is a specimen - way bigger than Barry who was a stong, fit lad himself - but the fight was ultimately won by Barry's huge energy and treating Pedroza's power with due respect.

I think there's a bit in the book where McGuigan is brutally frank about meeting Pedroza and realising that he's facing someone extraordinary.

[Counter-puncher]

Good points, Pedrosa certainly was a hell of a specimen for a featherweight in the same-day weigh in era

[Kalan]

You're full of crap again.. You gotta be freakin' BLIND.. Mickey Vann warned Lewis numerous times for fouling Bruno...

He also warned Bruno for clubbing at the head whilst in the clinch and rabbit punching.

No kidding... When the referee is taking NO points for numerous fouls by your opponent, you're NOT going to foul back??? Have you ever heard of secret agreements with referees to issue endless warnings but take no points??? That disadvantages one boxer as the referee says, "you guys keep fouling and I'll start taking points" -- but he never does... And one boxer is doing most all of the fouling while the other guy is occasionally retaliating in frustration, but is getting the worst of it.

[Controversial]

You're full of crap again.. You gotta be freakin' BLIND.. Mickey Vann warned Lewis numerous times for fouling Bruno...

He also warned Bruno for clubbing at the head whilst in the clinch and rabbit punching.

No kidding... When the referee is taking NO points for numerous fouls by your opponent, you're NOT going to foul back??? Have you ever heard of secret agreements with referees to issue endless warnings but take no points??? That disadvantages one boxer as the referee says, "you guys keep fouling and I'll start taking points" -- but he never does... And one boxer is doing most all of the fouling while the other guy is occasionally retaliating in frustration, but is getting the worst of it.

Except that Bruno often held opponents around the neck pulling the head down with his left whilst clubbing them with the right, he done it in several fights. Against Tyson he done it all the time and had a point deducted. Watch him and Carl Williams, Bruno fouled Williams repeatedly without warning. Against Emmen he hit him whilst Emmen was on the floor. Against Bugner he hit Bugner on the back of the head repeatedly and then pushed him to the floor, no warning and the ref counted. Bruno was a dirtier fighter than Lewis.

[Tinnie]

BEST

Gene Tunney
Tommy Loughran
Bennie Briscoe
Benny Leonard
Gene Fullmer

WORST

Lew Jenkins
John L Sullivan
Young Griffo

Young Griffo is a great shout, he despised training almost as much as sobriety

[Kalan]

Bruno was a dirtier fighter than Lewis.

He'd have to go some to be dirtier than Lewis. LL didn't believe the rule book applied to him. Funny thing is Akinwande was DQ'd against him for holding.

[Controversial]

Bruno was a dirtier fighter than Lewis.

He'd have to go some to be dirtier than Lewis.

Well he did and he was.