Why is George Foreman so highly rated?

[Cojimar 1946]

You are correct that Ellis, Quarry, and Bonavena were not the very best of the 70s but I think you are overrating how good Patterson was vis a vis other 50s heavyweights. Patterson was a level below guys like Marciano and Liston much as Quarry, Ellis, and Bonavena were not as good as Frazier or Ali.

[Cojimar 1946]

Jose Roman surely was not top 10
off the top of my head
1. Foreman
2.Ali
3. Frazier
4.Quarry
5.Norton
6.Lyle
7.Bonavena
8.Bugner
9.Shavers
10.Middleton
and others were all better than Roman

[Ambling Alp II]

At the time that Foreman fought him, Roman was a ranked contender. He probably should not have been. I'm just going by your criteria.

[Ambling Alp II]

You are correct that Ellis, Quarry, and Bonavena were not the very best of the 70s but I think you are overrating how good Patterson was vis a vis other 50s heavyweights. Patterson was a level below guys like Marciano and Liston much as Quarry, Ellis, and Bonavena were not as good as Frazier or Ali.

Rank your Top 10 1950 heavyweights. Where do you have Patterson? He has to be at least #5 and that's if you put Walcott and Charles ahead of him. Quarry and Ellis aren't in the top 5 for 1970s heavyweights.

[Kalan]

You are correct that Ellis, Quarry, and Bonavena were not the very best of the 70s but I think you are overrating how good Patterson was vis a vis other 50s heavyweights. Patterson was a level below guys like Marciano and Liston much as Quarry, Ellis, and Bonavena were not as good as Frazier or Ali.

I don't see how anyone can say Patterson was a level below Marciano. That's a total joke. Before Rocky retired, D'Amato was howling for a Marciano-Patterson fight. That's the last thing Rocky, Weill, or Goldman wanted. Patterson was very skilled and lightning fast. He was a dynamite puncher with both hands. Patterson took out Ancient Archie Moore twice as fast as Marciano did...and with far less trouble. For instance, Patterson wasn't knocked down as Rocky was, or hit with a lot of punches like Moore hit Rocky. Patterson won every round without even trying and got rid of Moore easily.

What about boxing skills? Marciano was very crude. He's very lucky he never faced a prime puncher. He faced worn out old guys and still got decked by an ancient Light Heavyweight Moore and the last legs Walcott. Marciano got hit to the extent his where his nose was split and almost hanging off. Patterson wasn't a master defender. but he was highly skilled when fighting guys his own size. Marciano never faced any prime fighter close to the skill levels of Ellis, Quarry, Machen, Liston, or Ali. Liston may have been slightly past his prime with Patterson, but he was destroying everybody he faced. The way Marciano struggled to get rid of super chinny and many times previously knocked out punching bags, like Light Heavyweight Don Cockell, you'd have to be insane to match him with a prime Liston.

[Kalan]

And before you go saying Don Cockell was a legitimate 205-pound Heavyweight, check his 68th fight.. He weighed 174 and was knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin... In his 69th fight, like 4 months later he weighed over 200... Anybody can balloon up by pigging out.

[cfang]

You're way off as usual. Rocky retired in april 1956. At that time Patterson had only fought at lt heavy. He was beaten by maxim and the names on his record were nothing special, ly heavys, people like durelle etc. There is no way that Rocky or his people at that time were afraid of lt heavy with no title and potential but that's it. Patterson beat Jackson in like June 56 and that was his big win at heavy that got him his shot - after Rocky retired.



quote="Kalan"]

You are correct that Ellis, Quarry, and Bonavena were not the very best of the 70s but I think you are overrating how good Patterson was vis a vis other 50s heavyweights. Patterson was a level below guys like Marciano and Liston much as Quarry, Ellis, and Bonavena were not as good as Frazier or Ali.

I don't see how anyone can say Patterson was a level below Marciano. That's a total joke. Before Rocky retired, D'Amato was howling for a Marciano-Patterson fight. That's the last thing Rocky, Weill, or Goldman wanted. Patterson was very skilled and lightning fast. He was a dynamite puncher with both hands. Patterson took out Ancient Archie Moore twice as fast as Marciano did...and with far less trouble. For instance, Patterson wasn't knocked down as Rocky was, or hit with a lot of punches like Moore hit Rocky. Patterson won every round without even trying and got rid of Moore easily.

What about boxing skills? Marciano was very crude. He's very lucky he never faced a prime puncher. He faced worn out old guys and still got decked by an ancient Light Heavyweight Moore and the last legs Walcott. Marciano got hit to the extent his where his nose was split and almost hanging off. Patterson wasn't a master defender. but he was highly skilled when fighting guys his own size. Marciano never faced any prime fighter close to the skill levels of Ellis, Quarry, Machen, Liston, or Ali. Liston may have been slightly past his prime with Patterson, but he was destroying everybody he faced. The way Marciano struggled to get rid of super chinny and many times previously knocked out punching bags, like Light Heavyweight Don Cockell, you'd have to be insane to match him with a prime Liston.[/quote]

[Kalan]

You're way off as usual. Rocky retired in april 1956. At that time Patterson had only fought at lt heavy. He was beaten by maxim and the names on his record were nothing special, ly heavys, people like durelle etc. There is no way that Rocky or his people at that time were afraid of lt heavy with no title and potential but that's it. Patterson beat Jackson in like June 56 and that was his big win at heavy that got him his shot - after Rocky retired.

YOU ARE WRONG as usual!!!! ... Archie McBride, Jimmy Walls, and Jimmy Slade are all listed as Heavyweights by this website and Patterson beat them all well before Marciano retired.. Jimmy Slade knocked out Don Cockell a long time before Marciano fought him---and that was a Heavyweight fight as well.. Slade was a light hitter, but according to sportswriters he made a punching bag out of Cockell and stopped him in 4 rounds, much faster than Rocky stopped him.. Patterson easily beat Slade up badly and stopped him..

All 11 sportswriters covering Patterson-Maxim had Patterson winning the fight... Patterson had only 13 fights when he fought Maxim... And he only weighed 168... Maxim was 9 pounds heavier but Patterson easily outboxed him all the way...

"Floyd Patterson, the 19 year old Olympic graduate, won a "newspaper decision" over Joey Maxim last night, but the cagey ex-light heavyweight champion grabbed the verdict that counts - a unanimous if unpopular vote by the three officials. A poll of 11 boxing writers at the ringside at Brooklyn's Eastern Parkway Arena was unanimous for Patterson over his 32 year old opponent. Patterson, using a spectacular leaping right hand lead battered Maxim in the 6th, staggering him twice. Joey fought back gamely under bursts of fire by Patterson grabbing when in danger." -Associated Press

[Ambling Alp II]

Not sure what "listed by this website is supposed to mean, but Walls was never a contender and Slade and McBride were only fringe contenders. They were two of many relatively even fighters who fought some decent competition and sometimes won and sometimes lost.

Yes it's common knowledge by fight fans knows that Patterson got hooked by Maxim. Unlike you who just saw it on the boxrec records page today, many of us have known this for many years. Most of the fight survives on film and many us have actually seen it.

I know that you somehow think you have found the smoking gun with Marciano-Cockell fight. However, Marciano was in complete control in this fight.

None of this make Patterson someone whom Marciano was worried about. Patterson had a lot of trouble with Jackson the first time around.

[sweetsci]

At the time that Foreman fought him, Roman was a ranked contender. He probably should not have been. I'm just going by your criteria.

Indeed - Ring magazine had Roman #9, the WBC had him at #10, and World/International Boxing magazine had him at #12 in the months AFTER the Foreman fight (I don't have their rankings going in).

Roman was unranked by the WBA and by Boxing Illustrated magazine.

[Kalan]

Not sure what "listed by this website is supposed to mean, but Walls was never a contender and Slade and McBride were only fringe contenders. They were two of many relatively even fighters who fought some decent competition and sometimes won and sometimes lost.

Yes it's common knowledge by fight fans knows that Patterson got hooked by Maxim. Unlike you who just saw it on the boxrec records page today, many of us have known this for many years. Most of the fight survives on film and many us have actually seen it.

I know that you somehow think you have found the smoking gun with Marciano-Cockell fight. However, Marciano was in complete control in this fight.

None of this make Patterson someone whom Marciano was worried about. Patterson had a lot of trouble with Jackson the first time around.

This is NOT a smoking gun... Patterson would have cleaned up Cockell in a round or 2 and light hitting Slade destroyed Cockell in 4 rounds... Marciano struggled to get the China-chinned wimp out of there in 9... I knew from the 50's that Patterson beat Maxim easy... EVERYBODY said so and I was a big boxing fan in that era... I'm simply presenting proof that Patterson was robbed you dunce. I didn't need to see it on boxrec pages I knew it was there for years.

[Kalan]

Slade was not a fringe contender... He was ranked when Patterson beat him... Patterson beat everybody and he beat Moore one HELL of a lot easier than Marciano beat him.. I simply presenting proof that Patterson fought as a HEAVYWEIGHT prior to Marciano's retirement.. Something disputed by tcfang who wrote: "Rocky retired in april 1956. At that time Patterson had only fought at lt heavy"

[HarryGrebbedMe]

Slade was not a fringe contender... He was ranked when Patterson beat him... Patterson beat everybody and he beat Moore one HELL of a lot easier than Marciano beat him.. I simply presenting proof that Patterson fought as a HEAVYWEIGHT prior to Marciano's retirement.. Something disputed by tcfang who wrote: "Rocky retired in april 1956. At that time Patterson had only fought at lt heavy"[/quote

[Tomasino]

Not sure what "listed by this website is supposed to mean, but Walls was never a contender and Slade and McBride were only fringe contenders. They were two of many relatively even fighters who fought some decent competition and sometimes won and sometimes lost.

Yes it's common knowledge by fight fans knows that Patterson got hooked by Maxim. Unlike you who just saw it on the boxrec records page today, many of us have known this for many years. Most of the fight survives on film and many us have actually seen it.

I know that you somehow think you have found the smoking gun with Marciano-Cockell fight. However, Marciano was in complete control in this fight.

None of this make Patterson someone whom Marciano was worried about. Patterson had a lot of trouble with Jackson the first time around.

This is NOT a smoking gun... Patterson would have cleaned up Cockell in a round or 2 and light hitting Slade destroyed Cockell in 4 rounds... Marciano struggled to get the China-chinned wimp out of there in 9... I knew from the 50's that Patterson beat Maxim easy... EVERYBODY said so and I was a big fan in that era... I'm simply presenting proof that Patterson was robbed you dunce. I didn't need to see it on boxrec pages I knew it was there for years.

A big fanny more like.

[cfang]

You're way off as usual. Rocky retired in april 1956. At that time Patterson had only fought at lt heavy. He was beaten by maxim and the names on his record were nothing special, ly heavys, people like durelle etc. There is no way that Rocky or his people at that time were afraid of lt heavy with no title and potential but that's it. Patterson beat Jackson in like June 56 and that was his big win at heavy that got him his shot - after Rocky retired.

That is not true either. Marciano retired after September 56. Patterson started fighting above 175 in December 55. Kalan's contention is D'Amato knew how useless Marciano really was, and that he had made his reputation feasting on old guys well past their best, and was angling for his young, prime, fast, skillful fighter to get a shot at him.


And the fact that Floyd won the vacant title only 2 months after Marciano's last fight appears to give credence to Kalan's claim that Marciano and his handlers wanted no part of Patterson.

No i think you are wrong here. the date I can find for Rocky announcing his retirement is April 27 1956. Patterson's win that put him into the frame for the title was jackson in june 56, after rocky retired. Floyd fought moore in nov 56 so there's no way rocky retired after sep 56. There is no evidence at all that rocky was scared of a young floyd patterson who only got to be ranked 5 in the heavys after rocky retired.

[cfang]

Ah nps, we go crazy on here quoting facts and figures hehe

It's easy to say looking at patterson's career now that rocky may have feared him but there's no evidence to the contrary. In fact seeing the marciano interview on yt - the one in Australia, he talks about patterson and johanson and how he wanted to come back cos he thought he could beat johannson but couldn't get started training really - the old fire had gone out. Ive never seen anything to suggest he was scared of anyone let alone patterson and especially before patterson had really come to the fore. Now if patterson had come on the scene, destroyed everyone and looked a huge threat and then rocky had retired, there's a possibility that he could have been concerned but really in this case there's nothing at all to suggest that.

[Kalan]

There was a LOT to suggest Marciano wanted no part of Patterson... Marciano's poor showings against Cockell and Moore were wind-milling, slogging efforts... Other boxers finished these 2 a lot faster ... and Moore was past 40 and a Light Heavyweight -- but he knocked Marciano down and took a lot.

Patterson was destroying everybody he faced with ferocious hand speed and ripping power... He wasn't a tired old punching bag like the guys Rocky picked.

[Ambling Alp II]

Interesting spins you have made. Here is one of mine:
Patterson barely beat Hurricane Jackson the first time. Nino Valdes stopped Jackson in just two rounds. Imagine what Valdes would do against Moore. Yet, Moore defeated Valdes twice.
The world no longer makes sense, does it?

You can't simply pick one or two fights and say this guy is great or this guy sucked.

Patterson looked great against Moore. Looked great against in the second Johannson fight. Looked great against Machen.
Take a look at the two Liston fights or the first Johansson fight. Patterson got decked by an opponent in his first pro fight who never went on to do much.
Most of his other fights he looked somewhere in between.

Head to head against Marciano would probably have ended badly for Patterson. Floyd didn't have that good of a chin. Sooner or later Marciano would have got to Patterson and end it.

[cfang]

Interesting spins you have made. Here is one of mine:
Patterson barely beat Hurricane Jackson the first time. Nino Valdes stopped Jackson in just two rounds. Imagine what Valdes would do against Moore. Yet, Moore defeated Valdes twice.
The world no longer makes sense, does it?

You can't simply pick one or two fights and say this guy is great or this guy sucked.

Patterson looked great against Moore. Looked great against in the second Johannson fight. Looked great against Machen.
Take a look at the two Liston fights or the first Johansson fight. Patterson got decked by an opponent in his first pro fight who never went on to do much.
Most of his other fights he looked somewhere in between.

Head to head against Marciano would probably have ended badly for Patterson. Floyd didn't have that good of a chin. Sooner or later Marciano would have got to Patterson and end it.

[Ambling Alp II]

He would not have a lot trouble hitting Marciano. However, Marciano had a very good chin and would be able to take Patterson's shots.
Patterson is not going to be able to win on points over 15 rounds. His defense was not good enough to handle Marciano's constant pressure.
Marciano had tremendous power. Patterson did not have the chin to stand up to it. It might be interesting for a while, but eventually Marcinao takes him out.

[Cojimar 1946]

Number 5 sounds about right for Patterson as for Ellis I don't have a strong opinion as to where he rates--you could argue as high as 6 or 7 but maybe 8 is more reasonable. He was pretty good at his peak.

[Cojimar 1946]

Also, as far as Charles wins over highly rated opponents go I am only counting the guys I think were top 10 heavyweights. Like with Foreman there were probably other guys who may have featured in some rankings but probably were not actually as good as they were thought to be. Lee Oma may be one example of such an opponent. Joe Frazier is an exceptional win but none of Foreman's other opponents are at this level and frankly aside from Frazier I don't see them as being better than Charles best opponents. Chuvalo even lost to Bob Baker.

[Ambling Alp II]

Cojimar, please do two things for me:
1. Mention specifically which wins you are counting as "Top 10" wins for Charles.
2. Rate your Top 1950s heavyweights and Top 10 1970s.

[Kalan]

He would not have a lot trouble hitting Marciano. However, Marciano had a very good chin and would be able to take Patterson's shots.
Patterson is not going to be able to win on points over 15 rounds. His defense was not good enough to handle Marciano's constant pressure.
Marciano had tremendous power. Patterson did not have the chin to stand up to it. It might be interesting for a while, but eventually Marcinao takes him out.

Oh brother!!! Guys who hit Rocky real good hurt him and knocked him down dude.. Marciano never fought anybody good in their prime anyway.. Patterson would have been the 1st great young Heavyweight Rocky ever fought.. Floyd would have outboxed Marciano super easy like he did the much bigger and stronger Chuvalo and Bonavena.. They were both very slow and unskilled swingers like Marciano -- who would have taken a much worse beating due to his miniature size... Ridiculous getting decked by an ancient Light Heavyweight like Archie Moore -- who couldn't put a dent in Floyd Patterson with his best shots.. Patterson ran right over the little guy.

[Cojimar 1946]

Patterson was a near-contemporary of Marciano yet achieved less in his career. If Marciano was as bad as people say its hard to understand how he was so successful. A flash knockdown against Archie Moore in a fight he won by knockout is somehow being held against him.