Interesting comments

[Ambling Alp II]

On another post, here a couple of comments:

So you seriously don't think Lewis or Vladimir had as good or better hand speed than Johnson, Louis, Marciano, Liston, never mind the plums they fought and beat. Joe Louis shuffled around the ring like a saturday night drunk, I don't believe the words defense, footwork and Marciano should be mentioned in the same book. David Haye had better footwork than any of the guys you mentioned, and he proved it by running like a hare against Vlad. Lewis and the K2 brothers ability to take out much bigger guys than those smaller guys beat and quicker can hardly be seen as a criticism of their stamina, unless you have an agenda. As for claiming any of them lacked heart, that is beyond stupid.

Of course a GOOD big one always beats a good little one, its just people with agendas ALWAYS want to match a good little one with a mediocre or worse big one. It is laughable to think a Lewis, or a Klitchko brother would treat fighters like Johnson, Marciano, Louis, Patterson, Frazier, or Tyson with anything other than contempt.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It's the same trolls in every thread. You need to just ignore them.

[BoxBuzz]

and though saad describes them as trolls.....I think they just have "diverse opinions" back in the old days we just listened and smiled. And walked around "knowing differently"

I don't think that the "usual suspects" around here state these things simply to push our buttons. Even if they conflict with themselves from time time.

But if I'm wrong, and they are attempting to push buttons, they are failing to push mine.

I just walk around...."knowing differently" than what they are suggesting.

Except when it comes to those we've never seen......I'm sort of wrestling with how to assess Greb and Rosenbloom to this day.


But Louis? His record is reviewable...if you can't see he's a master craftsman...then all we can do is suggest thicker glasses.

[Kalan]

I don't think thicker glasses will do it for you BuzzBox... Maybe a brain transplant would help... Were Eastern Europe or England producing any Heavyweights like Joshua, Fury, Lewis, the Klitschko Bros, Povetkin,or Haye at any time during Louis's whole career??? Why do you suppose sportswriters referred to Louis's challengers laughingly as the "Bum of the Month Club?" Louis was easy to hit and got dumped many times.

Watch the first Louis-Conn fight... Conn weighed under the Light Heavyweight limit and boxed the piss out of Louis most of the way... Conn had a ton of losses before he met Louis... Conn got hit a lot... But if Conn had a Heavyweight's power, size, and resistance he would have knocked Louis out -- like Schmeling did... Schmeling was a 10/1 underdog and ripped Louis... Do you seriously think 192-pound Schmeling would have a chance with Joshua???

[BoxBuzz]

Is your name "usual suspects"? Ah well I suppose a person should know who they are.....just gotta have faith in some things I suppose.

You always bring up the first Louis Schmelling affair. And it of course told about 50% of the story.

And that's a percentile that you often seem happy with.

IN my opinion, You should shoot for over 50%.......I think you should think big....when telling stories....go for 75%.....

once you've mastered that, you can begin to shoot for excellence when communicating.

I'll be right here behind you, cheering you on, every step of the way!

[fanman]

To be honest size matters and many of those old time heavyweights would be cruisers today. Can you imagine Joe Louis competing at cruiser today. He would be an absolutely enormous puncher in that division.
Of course big vlad and lennox were levelled by the likes of sanders, brewster, mccall and rahman, when in their prime age, so of course a monster puncher like a liston or foreman would have been a threat in any era.

[elmersalsa]

What if the Brown Bomber weights 225lbs with the same speed and accuracy and punching power?

Would Lennox Lewis or the Klitschko brothers or any of the big heavyweights of today beat him?

I think not. But, I can't envision a 195lbs man beating a man that weighs in more than 240lbs and is as good as he. Can we envision that?

[elmersalsa]

To be honest size matters and many of those old time heavyweights would be cruisers today. Can you imagine Joe Louis competing at cruiser today. He would be an absolutely enormous puncher in that division.
Of course big vlad and lennox were levelled by the likes of sanders, brewster, mccall and rahman, when in their prime age, so of course a monster puncher like a liston or foreman would have been a threat in any era.

So just to get this right, because the 230+ pounders McCall and Rahman KO'd Lewis the 215 Liston or Foreman must do also. I suppose we should be grateful that you haven't gone as far as some of the self appointed experts on here and said the 185 Marciano is a shoo in to KO him as well.

Have you ever considered none of those guys ever faced anyone who hit as hard as either Lewis or Vlad? We even have some comedians on here who believe that because Louis beat the giant plums Carnera, Buddy Baer, and Abe Simon, he can't possibly lose to Lewis or a K2 brother. It doesn't get much more stupid than that. One overhand right thrown from 4 feet away by either Lewis or Vlad, and Joe Louis is asleep until they revive him.

What if The Brown Bomber had the same skills but is bigger in size at let's say 235lbs vs a Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis or any of the heavyweight behemoths of today? Does these monsters beat somebody as skilled as the great Joe Louis at 235lbs? Or let's say all the boxers weigh in the same, at 200lbs? Are the Klitschko brothers skills prevail?

[BoxBuzz]

To be honest size matters and many of those old time heavyweights would be cruisers today. Can you imagine Joe Louis competing at cruiser today. He would be an absolutely enormous puncher in that division.
Of course big vlad and lennox were levelled by the likes of sanders, brewster, mccall and rahman, when in their prime age, so of course a monster puncher like a liston or foreman would have been a threat in any era.

So just to get this right, because the 230+ pounders McCall and Rahman KO'd Lewis the 215 Liston or Foreman must do also. I suppose we should be grateful that you haven't gone as far as some of the self appointed experts on here and said the 185 Marciano is a shoo in to KO him as well.

Have you ever considered none of those guys ever faced anyone who hit as hard as either Lewis or Vlad? We even have some comedians on here who believe that because Louis beat the giant plums Carnera, Buddy Baer, and Abe Simon, he can't possibly lose to Lewis or a K2 brother. It doesn't get much more stupid than that. One overhand right thrown from 4 feet away by either Lewis or Vlad, and Joe Louis is asleep until they revive him.

If you want an example of how facts and stats tend to get in the way of nostalgic bullshit, go and look at the Joshua thread where I posted the 19th opponents of all these ATG's. Trust me you won't want to see how hopeless their records were going into these fights.

As long as there is a logical platform to support any hypothetical, I can be open minded. It's when people use pretzel logic that I get a little alienated. Not sure I've see you go off the deep end. But Kalan does throw out some assertions that are worth questioning at the very least. I do believe that in boxing you can play the general odds, but you better be prepared for the anomaly because every fight is a potential anomaly. One thing goes wrong, and the odds on favorite can go down. Just llike the "Any given Sunday" football scenario.

Where were you at the half....at the last Superbowl? Not many of us saw that second half coming.

[Ambling Alp II]

Is your name "usual suspects"? Ah well I suppose a person should know who they are.....just gotta have faith in some things I suppose.

You always bring up the first Louis Schmelling affair. And it of course told about 50% of the story.

And that's a percentile that you often seem happy with.

IN my opinion, You should shoot for over 50%.......I think you should think big....when telling stories....go for 75%.....

once you've mastered that, you can begin to shoot for excellence when communicating.

I'll be right here behind you, cheering you on, every step of the way!

It wasn't Kalan, but yes one of the usual suspects. Being on the Forum for many years, you are going to hear some crazy things. However, this has to be right up there.
There are people that just try to get rise out of people and say something crazy.
Others make the classic mistakes; they assume. They assume that bigger is better. They assume that fighters that fought before they got interested in the sport can't be better than more modern fighters.

[Kalan]

Is your name "usual suspects"? Ah well I suppose a person should know who they are.....just gotta have faith in some things I suppose.

You always bring up the first Louis Schmelling affair. And it of course told about 50% of the story.

And that's a percentile that you often seem happy with.

IN my opinion, You should shoot for over 50%.......I think you should think big....when telling stories....go for 75%.....

once you've mastered that, you can begin to shoot for excellence when communicating.

I'll be right here behind you, cheering you on, every step of the way!

I'm already an excellent communicator.. The only thing you're excellent at is traipsing through moonbeams on the way to Zu Zu Land.

Schmeling was on the edge of his prime years when he knocked out a much younger Louis...and he was shot for the rematch... He was supposed to get a title shot for knocking Louis out, but he was a German so he got screwed over.. He didn't get important fights - or hardly any fights... In contrast Louis got a lot of fights... Louis also got the title shot against Braddock who hadn't fought in 2 years.. Louis also got to defend the title a few times before he met Schmeling again.. Had Schmeling got his deserved shot at Braddock, and a timely Louis rematch it would have been different.. That's the rest of the story.

[evrenb]

I think a few patronising fools here have got far too high opinions of themselves, and are also too stupidly arrogant to realise some of us couldn't care a fig about their nostalgic views.

Quite frankly some of us would be more than happy if these condescending morons were to put us on ignore. As Kalan points out there are unfortunately too many idiots in the world who believe all forms of sport have improved with each different era except boxing. These poor souls are just to be patted on the head and taken about as seriously as a raindrop in a lake.

You call people stupidly arrogant and then write such awful language and spit venom at people?? You and your buddy Kalan are partners in trolling.

[evrenb]

7

I think a few patronising fools here have got far too high opinions of themselves, and are also too stupidly arrogant to realise some of us couldn't care a fig about their nostalgic views.

Quite frankly some of us would be more than happy if these condescending morons were to put us on ignore. As Kalan points out there are unfortunately too many idiots in the world who believe all forms of sport have improved with each different era except boxing. These poor souls are just to be patted on the head and taken about as seriously as a raindrop in a lake.

You call people stupidly arrogant and then write such awful language and spit venom at people?? You and your buddy Kalan are partners in trolling.

I think you have me seriously confused with someone who gives a toss what you and the usual suspects think.

Gosh let us not invite you to the next Christmas party. You sound 'fun'...

[BoxBuzz]

Is your name "usual suspects"? Ah well I suppose a person should know who they are.....just gotta have faith in some things I suppose.

You always bring up the first Louis Schmelling affair. And it of course told about 50% of the story.

And that's a percentile that you often seem happy with.

IN my opinion, You should shoot for over 50%.......I think you should think big....when telling stories....go for 75%.....

once you've mastered that, you can begin to shoot for excellence when communicating.

I'll be right here behind you, cheering you on, every step of the way!

I'm already an excellent communicator.. The only thing you're excellent at is traipsing through moonbeams on the way to Zu Zu Land.

Schmeling was on the edge of his prime years when he knocked out a much younger Louis...and he was shot for the rematch... He was supposed to get a title shot for knocking Louis out, but he was a German so he got screwed over.. He didn't get important fights - or hardly any fights... In contrast Louis got a lot of fights... Louis also got the title shot against Braddock who hadn't fought in 2 years.. Louis also got to defend the title a few times before he met Schmeling again.. Had Schmeling got his deserved shot at Braddock, and a timely Louis rematch it would have been different.. That's the rest of the story.

Fair enough...... But your have to admit, even someone from ZuZu land can see your stepping into the role of Nostradamus. So it's just a guess. But one thing for certain, that no one can argue with....it's YOUR guess. And that makes it special.

[cfang]

It's the same trolls in every thread. You need to just ignore them.

[Tuan_Jim]

David Tua was the smallest man since Rocky Marciano to compete in a heavyweight title fight - and Lewis far from treating him with "contempt" boxed him with more respect and caution than we saw from him in any other fight in his career. "Contempt" is what he treated big stiffs like Grant and Klitschko with. But Tua, a man with one hand and who was slow and handicapped by 30lb of excess flab, he feared.

The image of Lennox Lewis just wading into someone like Joe Louis - a fighter with KO power in both fists, and the dazzling speed you would expect of an athlete - dissolves pretty quickly when one recalls the Lewis of the Tua fight - with his right hand pinned to his jaw, his huge legs spread for quick escape, while a slow wheezing fat man lobs the occasional telegraphed left hook.

Some of the trolls on here would have trained Lewis to jump on Tua and "knock the midget out in 1, champ! He doesn't even have abs!"

[elmersalsa]

So just to get this right, because the 230+ pounders McCall and Rahman KO'd Lewis the 215 Liston or Foreman must do also. I suppose we should be grateful that you haven't gone as far as some of the self appointed experts on here and said the 185 Marciano is a shoo in to KO him as well.

Have you ever considered none of those guys ever faced anyone who hit as hard as either Lewis or Vlad? We even have some comedians on here who believe that because Louis beat the giant plums Carnera, Buddy Baer, and Abe Simon, he can't possibly lose to Lewis or a K2 brother. It doesn't get much more stupid than that. One overhand right thrown from 4 feet away by either Lewis or Vlad, and Joe Louis is asleep until they revive him.

What if The Brown Bomber had the same skills but is bigger in size at let's say 235lbs vs a Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis or any of the heavyweight behemoths of today? Does these monsters beat somebody as skilled as the great Joe Louis at 235lbs? Or let's say all the boxers weigh in the same, at 200lbs? Are the Klitschko brothers skills prevail?

But Louis wasn't 235 was he? The trouble with you nostalgia freaks is you want to state that Joe beat three 240 lb plums in Carnera, Baer and Simon, but when the obvious is pointed out to you that none of them could hold a candle to Lewis or the K2 brothers, you cry " Oh but we want a 230 lb Joe Louis."

So which is it, can Joe handle any and every 240+ guy, or just those with limited talent?

I am just asking a question. We all know that The Brown Bomber never passed the 215lbs mark. I could be wrong. But, let's say he has the same skills and speed, but with more weight, like 235lbs. Do you think Lennox Lewis beats him?

Let's say both weigh in 200lbs? Who wins?

[elmersalsa]

But Louis wasn't 235 was he? The trouble with you nostalgia freaks is you want to state that Joe beat three 240 lb plums in Carnera, Baer and Simon, but when the obvious is pointed out to you that none of them could hold a candle to Lewis or the K2 brothers, you cry " Oh but we want a 230 lb Joe Louis."

So which is it, can Joe handle any and every 240+ guy, or just those with limited talent?

I am just asking a question. We all know that The Brown Bomber never passed the 215lbs mark. I could be wrong. But, let's say he has the same skills and speed, but with more weight, like 235lbs. Do you think Lennox Lewis beats him?

Let's say both weigh in 200lbs? Who wins?

That is taking fantasy fights to the point of stupidity. Lewis never weighed as little as 200, and Joe Louis never weighed 230.

So lets take things beyond stupidity. In future fantasy fights I want a Roberto Duran with the chin of Oliver McCall, and a punch as hard and fast as Tyson. See what price Tommy Hearns then.

Do you get the point?

Why are you avoiding the questions? I gave you 2 scenarios of both fighters if they were at that weight. My logic is that a 195lbs Joe Louis, can't beat a good heavyweight that weights more than 240lbs. He would have been too small.

But, why is stupidity to think the other two weight possibilities? We are talking about skills here. Do you think Lennox's skills are better than Louis'?

Skill vs skill at even terms of weight? Who wins?

[Kalan]

So just to get this right, because the 230+ pounders McCall and Rahman KO'd Lewis the 215 Liston or Foreman must do also. I suppose we should be grateful that you haven't gone as far as some of the self appointed experts on here and said the 185 Marciano is a shoo in to KO him as well.

Have you ever considered none of those guys ever faced anyone who hit as hard as either Lewis or Vlad? We even have some comedians on here who believe that because Louis beat the giant plums Carnera, Buddy Baer, and Abe Simon, he can't possibly lose to Lewis or a K2 brother. It doesn't get much more stupid than that. One overhand right thrown from 4 feet away by either Lewis or Vlad, and Joe Louis is asleep until they revive him.

If you want an example of how facts and stats tend to get in the way of nostalgic bullshit, go and look at the Joshua thread where I posted the 19th opponents of all these ATG's. Trust me you won't want to see how hopeless their records were going into these fights.

As long as there is a logical platform to support any hypothetical, I can be open minded. It's when people use pretzel logic that I get a little alienated. Not sure I've see you go off the deep end. But Kalan does throw out some assertions that are worth questioning at the very least. I do believe that in boxing you can play the general odds, but you better be prepared for the anomaly because every fight is a potential anomaly. One thing goes wrong, and the odds on favorite can go down. Just llike the "Any given Sunday" football scenario.

Where were you at the half....at the last Superbowl? Not many of us saw that second half coming.

I'm not into American football to be honest. Far too much talking, and not enough action for my liking, so I turned it off in what you call the second quarter. However I seem to remember amongst all that talking one of the guys saying that team that won had come back from 20 something points behind before during the season. Something about the quarterback being the best in the game.

Football isn't Boxing. Our coach would occasionally put 12 guys on the field because the referees and coaches would rarely catch him. Even the other coach and team would miss it. Not that they can't count. They're focused more on their side of the line. They never get away with that in the NFL. There are so many variables and players that winning a football game is more of a crap shoot than individual sports.. If you win the first 7 rounds of a boxing match by a clear margin, you are almost never going to get outpointed.. In Baseball, Football, Basketball, or even Hockey, the other team can catch fire and run you down and score 5, 10, 20, or 30 points in a row given the team sport you're playing. Because there's no such thing as a 10-1 round in Boxing, even if you're scoring that many.

[Kalan]

But Kalan does throw out some assertions that are worth questioning at the very least

You never come up with any arguments to the contrary... You're traipsing in the moonbeams talking about how being tall is everything and being tall means you can beat anyone and other sarcastic nonsense... Those are assertions I never made, and you have the lamest, non-thinking arguments of anyone here.

[Tomasino]

But Kalan does throw out some assertions that are worth questioning at the very least

You never come up with any arguments to the contrary... You're traipsing in the moonbeams talking about how being tall is everything and being tall means you can beat anyone and other sarcastic nonsense... Those are assertions I never made, and you have the lamest, non-thinking arguments of anyone here.

Why be so harsh to your only buddy? Can't you see he craves your approval?

[BoxBuzz]

But Kalan does throw out some assertions that are worth questioning at the very least

You never come up with any arguments to the contrary...

Thanks....I'll seriously consider the option of arguing and being contrary with you in the future. If you really feel it will help.

Though I don't think there's a thing that any other contributor has ever added to the conversation that has changed your way of thinking (on any subject) one iota.

So not sure why you would suggest that.

Tell you what, You just be you...you're doin' just fine with that. And as far as I can see, no one else is interested in that gig anyway.

If it makes you feel any better, I'll make this commitment.....I will only comment whenever I feel like it.

Fair enough?

[elmersalsa]

That is taking fantasy fights to the point of stupidity. Lewis never weighed as little as 200, and Joe Louis never weighed 230.

So lets take things beyond stupidity. In future fantasy fights I want a Roberto Duran with the chin of Oliver McCall, and a punch as hard and fast as Tyson. See what price Tommy Hearns then.

Do you get the point?

Why are you avoiding the questions? I gave you 2 scenarios of both fighters if they were at that weight. My logic is that a 195lbs Joe Louis, can't beat a good heavyweight that weights more than 240lbs. He would have been too small.

But, why is stupidity to think the other two weight possibilities? We are talking about skills here. Do you think Lennox's skills are better than Louis'?

Skill vs skill at even terms of weight? Who wins?

What question?

You are trying to invent people who NEVER existed. There was no such fighter as a 230 Joe Louis, neither was there such a fighter as a 200 pound Lennox Lewis. So what the fuk are you waffling on about?

Here are 2 more people that never existed. Superman, and Indiana Jones. Who wins?

It is really quite simple. From what you have seen of Louis, and Lewis who do you think would win if they fought each other in their primes? Here is a simple example. From what I saw of a prime Ali, and a prime Lewis I think Ali wins. I dont give a shite that Lennox had all the size, reach and weight advantages. Ali was just too good, Louis wasn't.

So you're saying that Lennox Lewis was better skilled than the great Joe Louis?

You're saying if Louis were 240lbs with the same speed and skills, he loses to Lennox?

Just answer the question. Don't make it complicated.

[Tuan_Jim]

Joe Louis was KO'd by 2 guys both under 200, one of them didn't even weigh 190. And if you think McCall and Rahman were crap, Schmelling wasn't even that good.

Tua KO'd 43 guys only 4 of which weighed less than 200. Furthermore in his 59 fights NO ONE ever looked close to knocking him out. So yes Lewis would control the distance between him and the shuffling Louis, just like he controlled the distance between him and Tua. The difference is he would fancy KO ing the 207 Louis rather than the 245 Tua.

Go on give me a bigger laugh, and tell me Joe Walcott who put Louis on his ass twice in one of their fights had greater one shot power than Lennox.

I think you’re struggling in this thread because you have such a poor grasp of boxing.

Your comments suggest you think the sport is decided like Rock ‘Em Sock ‘Em Robots. It’s a common misconception among internet fans who scan weights and records to form their judgements, rather than just studying fights and making some comparative analysis (or using a bit of common sense).

David Haye was dropped heavily by the super middle Lolenga Mock. He was knocked down by several cruisers, and stopped by Carl Thompson. Therefore giants like Klitschko and Valuev are going to destroy him. Instead it turns out that they are too slow to hit the small man square like a cruiser can do. Unless you think Jean Marc Mormeck has “greater one shot power” than Klitschko... Billups and Ocasio KOd by men without “greater one shot power” than Lewis. Holyfield doesn’t have “greater one shot power” than Lewis, yet he decked Mercer while Lewis couldn’t do a thing with him. On and on it goes. It’s really basic stuff, and you of all people should understand it. You (rightly) pick Ali over Lewis. Yet you don’t think Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks have “greater one shot power” than Lewis. So how do you reconcile that with your weight-is-everything stance?

Your aggression and hysterical emotional overreactions in this thread suggest you are at some level dimly aware that you are wrong - not a surprise when all the reasonable, intelligent sounding voices hold the opposing opinion while you have found yourself in agreement only with the clownish kalan, a poster most people have either blocked or read only for comic relief.

[Tuan_Jim]

Why are you avoiding the questions? I gave you 2 scenarios of both fighters if they were at that weight. My logic is that a 195lbs Joe Louis, can't beat a good heavyweight that weights more than 240lbs. He would have been too small.

But, why is stupidity to think the other two weight possibilities? We are talking about skills here. Do you think Lennox's skills are better than Louis'?

Skill vs skill at even terms of weight? Who wins?

What question?

You are trying to invent people who NEVER existed. There was no such fighter as a 230 Joe Louis, neither was there such a fighter as a 200 pound Lennox Lewis. So what the fuk are you waffling on about?

Here are 2 more people that never existed. Superman, and Indiana Jones. Who wins?

It is really quite simple. From what you have seen of Louis, and Lewis who do you think would win if they fought each other in their primes? Here is a simple example. From what I saw of a prime Ali, and a prime Lewis I think Ali wins. I dont give a shite that Lennox had all the size, reach and weight advantages. Ali was just too good, Louis wasn't.

So you're saying that Lennox Lewis was better skilled than the great Joe Louis?

You're saying if Louis were 240lbs with the same speed and skills, he loses to Lennox?

Just answer the question. Don't make it complicated.

Elmer - Louis doesn't need to be 240lb to handle big heavyweights.