Worst arguments

[evrenb]

I tend to think head to head fantasy matches between fighters from different eras entirely hopeless and pointless. Olden goldie you keep saying how you don't care what people think of you but have a child like hissy fit anytime someone happens to disagree with you.?

[Tony1244]

If your tone is the same in your personal life, you have some work to do. If it's completely different, you may ask yourself why you're taking out all this aggression on a keyboard, but to answer your question:

On Obama his being black is a small part of it. Anyone who thinks prejudice is a problem only of yesteryear, is badly mistaken. I mistakenly thought the first black president would be someone like Colin Powell. Of course you knew better because you're always right. Powell is a Republican, which somewhat gives balance to the stereotype that blacks are too liberal and he has an Anglican, not a Muslim sounding name. Also, Obama was the least experienced president since Lincoln. Obama won because of the economic crisis and Sarah Palin.

Trump won because he was the first candidate to talk about jobs going overseas in a generation. He is a buffoon but he was smart to talk about that.

I have less than zero interest in what people on the internet think of me. Either they have something to say that is relevant, or they don't. if they write stupid things I tend to pull them up on it, it is known as calling a spade a spade.

As I told you I am only interested in h2 h matches between guys I have seen in their own era's. Yes I do indeed consider it stupid when people try to handicap these fantasy fights. Saying things like Lewis or a Klitchko brother can only weigh 210, or Rocky or JL has to weigh 230.

Really? Well they didn't need to weigh 230 when they beat Carnera, Baer, and Simon, ( in Louis' case ) who were all over 245, or Shkor, and Wilson in Rocky Marciano's case who both outweighed him by at least 30 pounds.

So why the f**k should Lewis, or a K2 brother be handicapped? I stated categorically I believe those 3 guys would beat both Joe Louis or Marciano comfortably, due to the fact they weren't JUST big, but highly skilled fighters with it. I am not the one desperately looking for an angle so my pick can win.

“People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what people think.” George Carlin

The Ring Magazine and other boxing periodicals and people have been comparing fighters P4P for many decades, maybe even as long as a century. One of the first things I remember reading about boxing as a kid is that most boxing aficionados rated SR Robinson as the best P4P fighter of All Time. If someone wants to imagine Marciano as a 230 LBS fighter in lieu of a 185 LBS fighter, their going to continue to do it, regardless of whether you want them to or not. If you think the conversation is ridiculous, you have a choice not to participate in the discussion. Sort of silly to harp on it if you find the discussion meaningless. SR Robinson is never going to fight GGG, but people may still talk about it. If you want to insult people merely because you disagree with their hypothetical conclusion on a fight that will never happen, I find it a bizarre way to spend time.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think it's just elmer talking about the what if a guy weighed a different amount.
What Joe Louis could should speak for itself, but I guess not everyone is familiar with him.
He had was a very well rounded fighter. He had tremendous power. He was an accurate puncher. He was a great finisher.
Do we really have to pretend that Vitaly Klitschko had great ability? He didn't at all.
Wladimir had some skill but had a glass jaw and poor stamina.

How about we just look at what happened when Louis fought someone really big. He dominated them.

how about we take a look at opponents that were about the size of Louis but not nearly as good.
Lewis, and both Klitschko's did not dominate them.

[Kalan]

They DID dominate them.. All the greatest boxers the K Bros fought -- they dominated them all.

Chris Byrd was a better pure boxer than Louis and only outweighed him by about 13 pounds with a little height advantage... Waldimir out boxed him every single round of 19 rounds.

Calvin Brock was 29-0 which Joe Louis never got to... He was a good boxer who only weighed 25 pounds more than Louis but was much smaller than Wladimir... He was sh!tcanned like nobody's business... He only lost 2 fights in his career and only Klitschko knocked him out.

David Haye was a 2-Division World Champion who's still a top ranking and super skillful Heavyweight... He's faster, bigger, taller, and a bigger puncher than Louis... Haye is still great at an age where Louis was having money problems and wanted to retire -- because Louis was beaten silly by that age and was performing badly... The chinny Walcott had Louis down 2 or 3 times and punched him goofy before losing a robbery decision.

Eddie Chambers was 35-1 and a top flight boxer... He was 6'1" X 210 and Wlad reeled off every round before inflicting the only KO of Chamber's career.

Kevin Johnson was undefeated and a slick boxer and Vitali easily beat him...

Kirk Johnson was 34-1-1 and could box and punch... Vitali flattened him in 2 rounds.

Larry Donald was 39-2-2 and a very slick boxer who beat Evander Holyfield easily... Vitali is the only fighter who ever knocked him out.

Vaughn Bean was 42-2 and had nice skills... Vitali is the only boxer who ever stopped him

Tomasz Adamek was 44-1 and a 2-Division World Champion with great skills.. Vitali dominated him and was the first boxer who ever stopped him.

Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 and a surpassing boxer and a World Crusierweight Champion.. Vitali dominated and stopped him.

That's only 10 good boxers who the K Bros dominated...

Joe Louis didn't do that well... Who were all the fabulously skilled boxers who LOUIS out boxed and dominated???? .... ?????

Ahhh Conn.. Charles.. and Walcott??? ... Hmmm... They lost a lot and Louis didn't dominate them... They outboxed him pretty good

[Ambling Alp II]

Moving away from the irrelevant fights with fighter way past thier primes or against opponents that have nothing to do with the discussion, here is what Lewis, and Klitschkos have done against fighters close to Louis size:

Lewis-2 fights against a well past his best Holyfield. couldn't come close to stopping him either time. Should have got a decision win in the first fight, and should have got an embarrassing loss in the rematch.

Against the legendary Zlejiko Mavrovic, Lewis won a decision and in a competitive fight.

Vitaly lost to Chirs Byrd.
Two late round stoppages against Vaugh Bean and Tomas Adamek.

Wladimir : Won 12 round decisons against Chris Byrd David Haye and Sultan Ibragimov. Stopped Chambers in the 12th round.
Stopped Byrd in 7. The small fight he ever stopped before 5 rounds was Castillo.
Won a 5 round technical decison against Touch of sleep Williamson. Actually got knocked down in this fight and had an eye cut. Accidental Clash of heads stopped the fight. Otherwise he may have lost that one.


On the other hand, Joe Louis in four fights against opponents over 250:
TKO 6 and TKO 13 against Simon
KO 1 vs Buddy Baer
TKO 6 vs Primo Carnera

Louis was much more impressive against big heavyweights than Lewis and the Klitschkos were against small-medium sized heavyweights.

[Tuan_Jim]

Calvin Brock, Vaughn Bean, Kevin Johnson "good boxers". Dear god, why does anybody still bother to debate this kalan retard? His life is misrepresenting the facts on an online boxing forums in order to draw response and he is indefatigable. Literally nothing better to do with his time. Put him on block and move on.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Kevin johnson sucks, but he exposed vitalis inept and one dimensional offense. A fat guy laying on the ropes and he could barely touch him. Jimmy young would embarrass vitali.

[Kalan]

Kevin johnson sucks, but he exposed vitalis inept and one dimensional offense. A fat guy laying on the ropes and he could barely touch him. Jimmy young would embarrass vitali.

He touched KJ enough to easily beat a guy who was undefeated in 23 fights... Jimmy Young lost twice to Ossie Ocasio -- an extremely inexperienced Cruiserweight with a total of 11 pro fights, who somehow got a title shot and was plowed by Larry Holmes with little effort...

Young was also easily thumped and stopped by the much bigger, taller, prime, but hittable and inept Gerry Cooney - who was easily beaten and stopped by Holmes...Young outboxing the slow and easily pecked Foreman doesn't extrapolate to him out-boxing the fast, skilled, and brilliant jabbing Wladimir Klitschko.

[Tony1244]

I have less than zero interest in what people on the internet think of me. Either they have something to say that is relevant, or they don't. if they write stupid things I tend to pull them up on it, it is known as calling a spade a spade.

As I told you I am only interested in h2 h matches between guys I have seen in their own era's. Yes I do indeed consider it stupid when people try to handicap these fantasy fights. Saying things like Lewis or a Klitchko brother can only weigh 210, or Rocky or JL has to weigh 230.

Really? Well they didn't need to weigh 230 when they beat Carnera, Baer, and Simon, ( in Louis' case ) who were all over 245, or Shkor, and Wilson in Rocky Marciano's case who both outweighed him by at least 30 pounds.

So why the f**k should Lewis, or a K2 brother be handicapped? I stated categorically I believe those 3 guys would beat both Joe Louis or Marciano comfortably, due to the fact they weren't JUST big, but highly skilled fighters with it. I am not the one desperately looking for an angle so my pick can win.

“People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what people think.” George Carlin

The Ring Magazine and other boxing periodicals and people have been comparing fighters P4P for many decades, maybe even as long as a century. One of the first things I remember reading about boxing as a kid is that most boxing aficionados rated SR Robinson as the best P4P fighter of All Time. If someone wants to imagine Marciano as a 230 LBS fighter in lieu of a 185 LBS fighter, their going to continue to do it, regardless of whether you want them to or not. If you think the conversation is ridiculous, you have a choice not to participate in the discussion. Sort of silly to harp on it if you find the discussion meaningless. SR Robinson is never going to fight GGG, but people may still talk about it. If you want to insult people merely because you disagree with their hypothetical conclusion on a fight that will never happen, I find it a bizarre way to spend time.

More garbage.

Ray Robinson was not the number 1 in a scabby p4p list. At the time people were regaling Joe Louis and his achievements, and the consensus of the " experts " was if they both fought in the same division Robinson would beat the guy. What has since followed has no relevance on the esteem in which SRR was held.

As for the rest of your whinging, please save it for someone who actually gives a shite.

Most boxing people today would rank SR Robinson #1 P4P. But of course you have an advantage over everybody because you are not only brilliant, but omnipotent.

[Ambling Alp II]

[Ambling Alp II]

how about we take a look at opponents that were about the size of Louis but not nearly as good.
Lewis, and both Klitschko's did not dominate them.

YEAH, please do tell us EXACTLY how Lewis, or the K2 brothers got on when they fought 6' 2" guys who weighed 200 lbs and had 76" reaches.

Or would you prefer to pick the 7 out of 26 title fights Joe had when he was over 205?

Yourself.
Maybe you can tell me how many fights they won against fighters of this size?
All we ever get out of you is theories; never meaningful results of what actually happened.

I listed several who were close to the size of Louis. Some weren't taller; none weighed that much more. None had remotely the skill of Louis. You would expect a string of first and second round knockouts from the big guys. Yet there weren't any.
Even Lewis struggled with Zlejko Mavrovic, who was only about an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than Louis; and nowhere near the ability. He couldn't a way past it his best Holyfield either, who wasn't much bigger than Louis.

Don't really matter what Louis weighed when he beat crushed one huge heavyweight after another.

Louis had more ability than Lewis and light years more the Vitaly Klitschko. He showed it. As has been shown in the real world over and over, ability often overcomes size.

[APerno]

Once again we have approached, and failed to answer the eternal question: Does size count?

[Kalan]

One of the worst arguments is Ray Robinson being greatest P4P boxer ever because he won so many fights with only 19 losses -- without considering the caliber of his opponents who for the most part were 2nd raters, many with terrible records and skills, picked to pad Robinson's record.

When it actually came to World Title Fights, where you usually have to face somebody of quality, his record was not among the best to say the least.. Robinson suffered some stunning upsets, including to Ralph Jones who lost his 5 previous fights before dominating Robinson -- and SRR was stopped by the feather punching and easily smacked Joey Maxim. There are better candidates for best ever who displayed better boxing skills - including:

Willie Pep, who both fought and won many more fights than Robinson, and lost far fewer.. He also fought to an older age... and 10 of his 11 losses came after he was severely injured and almost killed in an airplane crash which laid him up for months and took away his chin.

Gene Tunney, who lost 1 of 80-some fights -- while getting knocked down once and never stopped -- even though boxrec puts his record at 65-1-1... Awarding wins, losses, or draws in no-decision boxing matches, where no judges were present to award a decision and the boxers know the fight is going to be a no-decision contest, is nonsense... It's manipulating History.

Savador Sanchez, who was 44-1-1... He died in an auto crash at 23, but he was certainly a masterful boxer at the time of his death.

Floyd Mayweather, who was 49-0, including wins in many more World Title Fights than Robinson ever fought, and suffered 2 "glove touch" knockdowns.

Eder Jofre, who lost to only 1 opponent in 78 fights. He traveled to Fighting Harada's home turf in Japan and lost 2 very close decisions.. Making the weight was excruciating and he campaigned exclusively as a Featherweight after also losing the rematch.. He won his last 25 fights in a row, fighting to the age of 40. Technically Jofre won 76 of 78, but in Brazilian scoring at the time, you had to beat your opponent by 4 points on 2 cards or suffer a draw, of which he had 4.

[evrenb]

They DID dominate them.. All the greatest boxers the K Bros fought -- they dominated them all.

Chris Byrd was a better pure boxer than Louis and only outweighed him by about 13 pounds with a little height advantage... Waldimir out boxed him every single round of 19 rounds.

Calvin Brock was 29-0 which Joe Louis never got to... He was a good boxer who only weighed 25 pounds more than Louis but was much smaller than Wladimir... He was sh!tcanned like nobody's business... He only lost 2 fights in his career and only Klitschko knocked him out.

David Haye was a 2-Division World Champion who's still a top ranking and super skillful Heavyweight... He's faster, bigger, taller, and a bigger puncher than Louis... Haye is still great at an age where Louis was having money problems and wanted to retire -- because Louis was beaten silly by that age and was performing badly... The chinny Walcott had Louis down 2 or 3 times and punched him goofy before losing a robbery decision.

Eddie Chambers was 35-1 and a top flight boxer... He was 6'1" X 210 and Wlad reeled off every round before inflicting the only KO of Chamber's career.

Kevin Johnson was undefeated and a slick boxer and Vitali easily beat him...

Kirk Johnson was 34-1-1 and could box and punch... Vitali flattened him in 2 rounds.

Larry Donald was 39-2-2 and a very slick boxer who beat Evander Holyfield easily... Vitali is the only fighter who ever knocked him out.

Vaughn Bean was 42-2 and had nice skills... Vitali is the only boxer who ever stopped him

Tomasz Adamek was 44-1 and a 2-Division World Champion with great skills.. Vitali dominated him and was the first boxer who ever stopped him.

Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 and a surpassing boxer and a World Crusierweight Champion.. Vitali dominated and stopped him.

That's only 10 good boxers who the K Bros dominated...

Joe Louis didn't do that well... Who were all the fabulously skilled boxers who LOUIS out boxed and dominated???? .... ?????

Ahhh Conn.. Charles.. and Walcott??? ... Hmmm... They lost a lot and Louis didn't dominate them... They outboxed him pretty good

Chris Byrd - Better pure boxer?? My foot !! He was shorter than Louis and weighed 168 - 190 at his natural weight. He also had a shorter reach. He had nowhere near the Power of Louis or finishing ability. He was a decent fighter and overachieved. He did force Vitali to quit ....he beat McCline which proved a good littl'n of equal ability to a good big'n can win! I was at that fight and Byrd done well to come back from a knockdown. Wins over Tua ( who was bigger(around the waist)) But losses to the legendary Shaun George, Drug cheat Povetkin and getting annihilated by the insane Ibeabuchi hardly puts him in the hall of fame greats Louis belonged to.

Calvin Brock - About the same size in stature as Louis - same height, virtually identical reach. When in a reasonable shape he was around 16stone...but he was hardly athletic looking. Had potential and was a nice fellah. He was a decent boxer though imo without a really significant win..his most significant victory was probably a close decision win over the past his best Jameel McCline. Not many other victories over top heavies. Again to put him in the same corridor as the great Louis is totally laughable.

David Haye - Similar in height to Louis - 1 inch taller but Louis wore thicker shoes. Reach wise he had a couple of inches on Louis. Naturally a cruiserweight of course and was soundly beaten by Blood and Guts warrior Carl Thompson. Very poor opposition at Heavyweight - his stand out win was outboxing the enormous Nikolay Valuev. A very dynamic fighter though and someone who I feel belongs in any era - I believe he had the beating of Wladimir - if it wasn't for that damn toe!

Eddie Chambers - Smaller than Louis in every way - shorter, lighter(when fit) , smaller reach. A nice smart boxer with decent skills - just lacking that killer instinct and championship quality. Lost to the tough cruiswerweight Thabiso Mchunu and drug cheat Povetkin. Chambers is a long way behind Joe Louis' shadow let alone Joe Louis!!!!

Kevin Johnson - Had beaten no one prior to fighting Vitali - he did manage to beat a post incarcerated Seldon who was 41. Lost to Tor Hamer, Chritian Hammer, Dereck Chisora and even Manuel Charr. Every time he stepped up like against Vitali, Fury and Joshua he was soundly beaten. He was a big guy at 17stone with an enormous 82 inch reach - same height as Louis when Louis wore his thick shoes. .His best win was over Alex Leapai...but that isn't saying much....

Kirk Johnson - He had the potential to do better than what he achieved - a classic under achiever. About the same size as Louis in height - with a longer reach - around 15-16 stone mark when in shape. Which wasn't often. considering he had the legendary Curtis Cokes in his corner that always puzzled me. Was more than 18 1/2 stone when he fought Vitali and seriously let himself down by weighing that much. It was the talk of the fight. He had a few decent wins against Larry Donald, Maskaev and Nicholson. But an inexcusable loss to Ruiz tarnished his accomplishments.
Once again he cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Louis..please!!

Vaughn Bean - A natural cruiserweight when fit - smaller than Louis - 5ft 11 inches and shorter reach. Vaughn was decent but never beat a top contender and lost every time he stepped up in class. A decent win for Vitali though.

Thomas Adamek - Again a Light Heavyweight - smaller than Louis naturally. Less reach and height....Nowhere near as good either. Had decent boxing ability of course but fought Vitali far too late in his career. Not that he would ever have beaten him.

Juan Carlos Gomez - Was a cruiserweight who was knocked out in 1 round by Yanqui Diaz and Kudryashov. Past his best granted but that doesn't factor into arguments in Kalan's world! Could you imagine him surviving 3 rounds with a prime Louis. ??? Never

Wladimir was beaten by by Lamon Brewster who had the same dimensions as Louis - a naturally 15stone - 16 stone heavy. He flattened Wladimir. Joe Louis was twice as good! At least... Wladimir was beaten by the very Limited Ross Purrity ...he was flattened by the late almost great Corrie Sanders who was naturally 14 1/2 stone when fit - tall and fast and dangerous. I think Wlad was dropped around 10 times in his career. Far more than Louis.
Don't get me wrong Wlad is a great fighter and was dominant. But I will stick my neck out and say that with different officiating he would have lost more.
Vitali - a different beast. He quit against Byrd and was bashed up by Lewis. He was very competitive against a hopelessly out of shape / past his prime Lewis. He was staggered badly against Sanders on a few occasions most notably the first round. Although a self confessed steroid user early in his career he was a very tough competitor who would be hard to beat by anyone. Again he has always had the favour of the referees that allow the jab and clutch style. A fit Corrie may have knocked him out that night. Sanders was sporting a full Ziff Ifrkan pot belly in their match.

Joe Louis - remember lost only once in his prime. Defended his title 25 times with 22 knockouts. Champion 11 years when the crown was undisputed. I'm sorry, but if the fight took place in the 1930s Louis was devestate both Klitschko brothers..and brutally. He had that winning mentality and the crowds would not stand for the clinching tactics allowed by seemingly biased refs today....in my opinion.

[Kalan]

They DID dominate them.. All the greatest boxers the K Bros fought -- they dominated them all.

Chris Byrd was a better pure boxer than Louis and only outweighed him by about 13 pounds with a little height advantage... Waldimir out boxed him every single round of 19 rounds.

Calvin Brock was 29-0 which Joe Louis never got to... He was a good boxer who only weighed 25 pounds more than Louis but was much smaller than Wladimir... He was sh!tcanned like nobody's business... He only lost 2 fights in his career and only Klitschko knocked him out.

David Haye was a 2-Division World Champion who's still a top ranking and super skillful Heavyweight... He's faster, bigger, taller, and a bigger puncher than Louis... Haye is still great at an age where Louis was having money problems and wanted to retire -- because Louis was beaten silly by that age and was performing badly... The chinny Walcott had Louis down 2 or 3 times and punched him goofy before losing a robbery decision.

Eddie Chambers was 35-1 and a top flight boxer... He was 6'1" X 210 and Wlad reeled off every round before inflicting the only KO of Chamber's career.

Kevin Johnson was undefeated and a slick boxer and Vitali easily beat him...

Kirk Johnson was 34-1-1 and could box and punch... Vitali flattened him in 2 rounds.

Larry Donald was 39-2-2 and a very slick boxer who beat Evander Holyfield easily... Vitali is the only fighter who ever knocked him out.

Vaughn Bean was 42-2 and had nice skills... Vitali is the only boxer who ever stopped him

Tomasz Adamek was 44-1 and a 2-Division World Champion with great skills.. Vitali dominated him and was the first boxer who ever stopped him.

Juan Carlos Gomez was 44-1 and a surpassing boxer and a World Crusierweight Champion.. Vitali dominated and stopped him.

That's only 10 good boxers who the K Bros dominated...

Joe Louis didn't do that well... Who were all the fabulously skilled boxers who LOUIS out boxed and dominated???? .... ?????

Ahhh Conn.. Charles.. and Walcott??? ... Hmmm... They lost a lot and Louis didn't dominate them... They outboxed him pretty good

Chris Byrd - Better pure boxer?? My foot !! He was shorter than Louis and weighed 168 - 190 at his natural weight. He also had a shorter reach. He had nowhere near the Power of Louis or finishing ability. He was a decent fighter and overachieved. He did force Vitali to quit ....he beat McCline which proved a good littl'n of equal ability to a good big'n can win! I was at that fight and Byrd done well to come back from a knockdown. Wins over Tua ( who was bigger(around the waist)) But losses to the legendary Shaun George, Drug cheat Povetkin and getting annihilated by the insane Ibeabuchi hardly puts him in the hall of fame greats Louis belonged to.

Calvin Brock - About the same size in stature as Louis - same height, virtually identical reach. When in a reasonable shape he was around 16stone...but he was hardly athletic looking. Had potential and was a nice fellah. He was a decent boxer though imo without a really significant win..his most significant victory was probably a close decision win over the past his best Jameel McCline. Not many other victories over top heavies. Again to put him in the same corridor as the great Louis is totally laughable.

David Haye - Similar in height to Louis - 1 inch taller but Louis wore thicker shoes. Reach wise he had a couple of inches on Louis. Naturally a cruiserweight of course and was soundly beaten by Blood and Guts warrior Carl Thompson. Very poor opposition at Heavyweight - his stand out win was outboxing the enormous Nikolay Valuev. A very dynamic fighter though and someone who I feel belongs in any era - I believe he had the beating of Wladimir - if it wasn't for that damn toe!

Eddie Chambers - Smaller than Louis in every way - shorter, lighter(when fit) , smaller reach. A nice smart boxer with decent skills - just lacking that killer instinct and championship quality. Lost to the tough cruiswerweight Thabiso Mchunu and drug cheat Povetkin. Chambers is a long way behind Joe Louis' shadow let alone Joe Louis!!!!

Kevin Johnson - Had beaten no one prior to fighting Vitali - he did manage to beat a post incarcerated Seldon who was 41. Lost to Tor Hamer, Chritian Hammer, Dereck Chisora and even Manuel Charr. Every time he stepped up like against Vitali, Fury and Joshua he was soundly beaten. He was a big guy at 17stone with an enormous 82 inch reach - same height as Louis when Louis wore his thick shoes. .His best win was over Alex Leapai...but that isn't saying much....

Kirk Johnson - He had the potential to do better than what he achieved - a classic under achiever. About the same size as Louis in height - with a longer reach - around 15-16 stone mark when in shape. Which wasn't often. considering he had the legendary Curtis Cokes in his corner that always puzzled me. Was more than 18 1/2 stone when he fought Vitali and seriously let himself down by weighing that much. It was the talk of the fight. He had a few decent wins against Larry Donald, Maskaev and Nicholson. But an inexcusable loss to Ruiz tarnished his accomplishments.
Once again he cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Louis..please!!

Vaughn Bean - A natural cruiserweight when fit - smaller than Louis - 5ft 11 inches and shorter reach. Vaughn was decent but never beat a top contender and lost every time he stepped up in class. A decent win for Vitali though.

Thomas Adamek - Again a Light Heavyweight - smaller than Louis naturally. Less reach and height....Nowhere near as good either. Had decent boxing ability of course but fought Vitali far too late in his career. Not that he would ever have beaten him.

Juan Carlos Gomez - Was a cruiserweight who was knocked out in 1 round by Yanqui Diaz and Kudryashov. Past his best granted but that doesn't factor into arguments in Kalan's world! Could you imagine him surviving 3 rounds with a prime Louis. ??? Never

Wladimir was beaten by by Lamon Brewster who had the same dimensions as Louis - a naturally 15stone - 16 stone heavy. He flattened Wladimir. Joe Louis was twice as good! At least... Wladimir was beaten by the very Limited Ross Purrity ...he was flattened by the late almost great Corrie Sanders who was naturally 14 1/2 stone when fit - tall and fast and dangerous. I think Wlad was dropped around 10 times in his career. Far more than Louis.
Don't get me wrong Wlad is a great fighter and was dominant. But I will stick my neck out and say that with different officiating he would have lost more.
Vitali - a different beast. He quit against Byrd and was bashed up by Lewis. He was very competitive against a hopelessly out of shape / past his prime Lewis. He was staggered badly against Sanders on a few occasions most notably the first round. Although a self confessed steroid user early in his career he was a very tough competitor who would be hard to beat by anyone. Again he has always had the favour of the referees that allow the jab and clutch style. A fit Corrie may have knocked him out that night. Sanders was sporting a full Ziff Ifrkan pot belly in their match.

Joe Louis - remember lost only once in his prime. Defended his title 25 times with 22 knockouts. Champion 11 years when the crown was undisputed. I'm sorry, but if the fight took place in the 1930s Louis was devestate both Klitschko brothers..and brutally. He had that winning mentality and the crowds would not stand for the clinching tactics allowed by seemingly biased refs today....in my opinion.

You just posted a lot of crap.

Vitali was not a "self confessed steroid user" When he was an amateur he mistakenly was prescribed a medication that contained a steriod. It was his responsibility to check the ingredients in all meds and that one got by him. But he's past 100's of drug tests without fail as a professional and never abused drugs.

Lamon Brewster was 30 pounds larger than Louis...

Wadimir easily beat Brewster in the rematch when he wasn't drugged...

Lewis was LOSING on ALL scorecards to Vitali post fight, and only won because the fight didn't go to the cards... The cuts were caused by foul blows.

Bryd is taller than Louis was.. Louis was always listed as 6'1" on every stat except boxrec's.. He looks the same height when standing next to anybody listed at 6'1" like Liston, Schemling, Dempsey, Johansson, and even slightly shorter in the cases of Dempsey and Liston.

Louis was knocked down 10 times... He was dumped by Schmeling X 2, Braddock, Galento, Buddy Baer. Walcott X 3 and Marciano X 2 That's 10 times and Wladimir was also dropped 10 times, but never in his last 20 fights since he learned how to box.. Earlier he was down once by Puritty, 4 X by Sanders, 1 X by Brewster, Robert Byrd specifically ruled a "no-knockdown" in the 5th because the bell had sounded before Brewster landed his final punch and Wladimir fell from a drug induced stupor.. He was also dropped once by Williamson... and 3 X by Peter...

But Wladimir met bigger, stronger, and harder punchers than Louis met... Braddock, Walcott, and Galento were hardly hitters... Braddock had a KO ratio of 30% Walcott 45% Galento 51%... Schmeling 57% --- Brewster had a KO ratio of 73%. Sanders 67% and Peter 69% Williamson 66%

The referees allowed endless clinching in Louis's day... They're much stricter today... The way Louis got tagged up like crazy by Schmeling, Conn, and Walcott, and considering they were all shorties were way under 200 pounds, Wladimir with his much greater height, weight, reach, size, and strength would bomb Louis out like he did Mercer, Brock, Byrd, and Chambers... If it were a distance fight, which I very much doubt, WK would have his way like he did with Haye... Louis was too easy to outbox as 174-pound Conn proved.

[evrenb]

Chris Byrd - Better pure boxer?? My foot !! He was shorter than Louis and weighed 168 - 190 at his natural weight. He also had a shorter reach. He had nowhere near the Power of Louis or finishing ability. He was a decent fighter and overachieved. He did force Vitali to quit ...
.

At that point I spat out my coffee through laughing, and deleted the rest of your nonsense.

Really?? I thought you were into biased comments to help your arguments??

[Tony1244]

Chris Byrd - Better pure boxer?? My foot !! He was shorter than Louis and weighed 168 - 190 at his natural weight. He also had a shorter reach. He had nowhere near the Power of Louis or finishing ability. He was a decent fighter and overachieved. He did force Vitali to quit ...
.

At that point I spat out my coffee through laughing, and deleted the rest of your nonsense.

Really?? I thought you were into biased comments to help your arguments??

Poor golden oldie, he needs a little insult/joke book at his side in his mommy's basement. So sad. And he says the same insult/jokes over and over and over again.

[Ambling Alp II]

YEAH, please do tell us EXACTLY how Lewis, or the K2 brothers got on when they fought 6' 2" guys who weighed 200 lbs and had 76" reaches.

Or would you prefer to pick the 7 out of 26 title fights Joe had when he was over 205?

Yourself.
Maybe you can tell me how many fights they won against fighters of this size?
All we ever get out of you is theories; never meaningful results of what actually happened.

I listed several who were close to the size of Louis. Some weren't taller; none weighed that much more. None had remotely the skill of Louis. You would expect a string of first and second round knockouts from the big guys. Yet there weren't any.
Even Lewis struggled with Zlejko Mavrovic, who was only about an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than Louis; and nowhere near the ability. He couldn't a way past it his best Holyfield either, who wasn't much bigger than Louis.

Don't really matter what Louis weighed when he beat crushed one huge heavyweight after another.

Louis had more ability than Lewis and light years more the Vitaly Klitschko. He showed it. As has been shown in the real world over and over, ability often overcomes size.

1. Can you list the 6' 2", 200lb fighters, with 76" reaches that either Lennox Lewis, or a Klitchko brother fought? YES or NO?

2. Can you post the results of those fights? YES or NO?

3. Your worthless opinion of who they fought, that might have been CLOSE in size to the relatively small Louis means less than nothing.

4. Who that SMALL did they fight, and WHAT happened?

Don't give me crap about " well six foot three is only one inch above Joe Louis, and 215 is only " about " the same as Joe, and an 80 " reach is " nearly " the same as Louis. Just tell us how LL, and the K2 bothers got on against 200 lb, 6' 2" guys with a poxy 76" reach. We don't need to hear garbage about " class " the three I mention had it in spades.

No I can't find the 6'2 guys who weighed 200 pounds and had a 76 inch reach that Lewis or either of the Klitschko's fought. I couldn't find a 6"2, 200 pound, guy with a 76" reach that Louis fought either in his 71 fights. Why, because human being have different dimensions.

Of course the opponents that Lewis, the Klitschkos fought who were close to the size of Louis means something. I listed several of them already. They didn't wins all of those fights, and had several tough fights. There were no blowouts.

If they can't blowout fighters about the size of Louis or slightly bigger and much less talent, then the chances of them doing that to Louis is minscule.
When you factor in the blowout wins when Louis did fight fighters about their size, the evidence favors Louis.

Lennox would be a tough fight.
Waldimir had no stamina and a glass jaw.
Vitaly simply didn't have anywhere near the ability or talent to compete.

[Kalan]

Louis was NOT 6' 2" ... Let's put that crap to bed right now. He's always been listed as 6'1" for the generations that I've been following Boxing. For his best fight — the fight that Louis said was the best of his life — he weighed 197 versus Max Baer. That's what the newspaper archives and stats listed him at 6'1" X 197 with physical dimensions you'd expect for an undersized Heavyweight.

Later on in Louis’s career the competition got worse and worse and he often came into the ring fat. He certainly was 20 pounds overweight for Marciano and looked slow as molasses. Klitschko is 41, but in super condition for every fight, because the competition is 10 X better today than when Louis finished he career vs Marciano. There were no big Heavyweights of any ability then ... and there are many today.

Louis was a great fighter for his day, but 6'1" X 192-pound 10/1 underdog Max Schmeling—who didn't appear to be an inch shorter than Louis but the same height—beat the living crap out of Louis and knocked him TFO worse than Wladimir Kltschko was EVER knocked out.. Louis was knocked down 10 times in his career -- often by men who Wladimir Klitschko would have smashed out in a single round -- such as Tony Galento and Buddy Baer, one of the most defenseless punching bags of all time.

Baer was very similar in size, and not nearly as fit, athletic, or skilled as Dereck Jefferson. Jefferson’s only losses were to full sized top Heavyweights with good records... Buddy Baer lost to a guy named Blunt, who he had 6” and 24 pounds on, and whose record was spotted with many losses. Baer was knocked out by a 200-pound guy named Barlund who he had 42 pounds and 6” of height on.

Jefferson was flattened by Klitschko in 2 rounds before he was ever coached by Emmanuel Steward, who upgraded his stance, defense, footwork, and punching skills. Steward often referred to Wladimir as “The most talented Heavyweight I’ve seen in many years.” Presumably that included Lennox Lewis, who he saw a lot of. Louis was knocked down by the clumsy, crude, and ponderous Baer, and struggled for 7 rounds to get the huge man out. He smashed the easily punched Baer half to death with nearly every punch he threw and if anybody’s chin was ever destroyed, it was Buddy Baer’s in that mismatched fight. It’s available on youtube if you like brutality.

[Jaywheel]

[The referees allowed endless clinching in Louis's day... They're much stricter today....

[evrenb]

No I can't find the 6'2 guys who weighed 200 pounds and had a 76 inch reach that Lewis or either of the Klitschko's fought. I couldn't find a 6"2, 200 pound, guy with a 76" reach that Louis fought either in his 71 fights. Why, because human being have different dimensions.

Of course the opponents that Lewis, the Klitschkos fought who were close to the size of Louis means something. I listed several of them already. They didn't wins all of those fights, and had several tough fights. There were no blowouts.

If they can't blowout fighters about the size of Louis or slightly bigger and much less talent, then the chances of them doing that to Louis is minscule.
When you factor in the blowout wins when Louis did fight fighters about their size, the evidence favors Louis.

Lennox would be a tough fight.
Waldimir had no stamina and a glass jaw.
Vitaly simply didn't have anywhere near the ability or talent to compete.

Forget the other crap, Joe Louis had 27 world title fights, from Braddock up until the defeat by Charles, in 20 of those fights he weighed less than 205. Of those 27 opponents only 10 of them weighed over 200.

Everyone Lewis fought under 210 he knocked out. The average weight of the guys Lewis fought is far greater than the guys Louis fought.

Vladimir Klitchko hit harder and faster than anyone Joe Louis ever read about, much less faced. With his power and speed stamina is not an issue, and don't bother talking about the Vlad of today at 40+ years old. At 37 Louis was KO'd by possibly the worst crudest stumpy armed little Cruiserweight who ever lived.

I'm glad you think Vitali didn't have the talent or ability to compete in the days of Louis who fed off barrow boys and cotton pickers, because it just goes to prove how totally shite all the American Heavies he ( Vitali ) used as punchbags actually were.

Nice one.

Is the reason you love Vitali so much because you don't have to kneel down to give him a blow job??

[Ambling Alp II]

No I can't find the 6'2 guys who weighed 200 pounds and had a 76 inch reach that Lewis or either of the Klitschko's fought. I couldn't find a 6"2, 200 pound, guy with a 76" reach that Louis fought either in his 71 fights. Why, because human being have different dimensions.

Of course the opponents that Lewis, the Klitschkos fought who were close to the size of Louis means something. I listed several of them already. They didn't wins all of those fights, and had several tough fights. There were no blowouts.

If they can't blowout fighters about the size of Louis or slightly bigger and much less talent, then the chances of them doing that to Louis is minscule.
When you factor in the blowout wins when Louis did fight fighters about their size, the evidence favors Louis.

Lennox would be a tough fight.
Waldimir had no stamina and a glass jaw.
Vitaly simply didn't have anywhere near the ability or talent to compete.

Forget the other crap, Joe Louis had 27 world title fights, from Braddock up until the defeat by Charles, in 20 of those fights he weighed less than 205. Of those 27 opponents only 10 of them weighed over 200.

Everyone Lewis fought under 210 he knocked out. The average weight of the guys Lewis fought is far greater than the guys Louis fought.

Vladimir Klitchko hit harder and faster than anyone Joe Louis ever read about, much less faced. With his power and speed stamina is not an issue, and don't bother talking about the Vlad of today at 40+ years old. At 37 Louis was KO'd by possibly the worst crudest stumpy armed little Cruiserweight who ever lived.

I'm glad you think Vitali didn't have the talent or ability to compete in the days of Louis who fed off barrow boys and cotton pickers, because it just goes to prove how totally shite all the American Heavies he ( Vitali ) used as punchbags actually were.

Nice one.

Louis beat several fighter who weighed over 250. Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, and Primo Carnera were all serious contenders when Louis beat them easily. In the future it would be best if did research on fighters (and I don't mean looking up fighters weights) before commenting on them. Believe it or not, the world didn't begin the day that you were born.

Lewis fought three people nobody ever heard of under 210. None were contenders.
My favorite part was about Klitschko being fast. What were smoking when you typed that?
Vitali did fight one decent guy who ws about the same size as Joe Louis. He lost.

[HomicideHenry]

That older fighters are in no way comparable to modern fighters

[APerno]

Why?

[evrenb]

Why?

I think meaning that is a 'worst argument' ...