World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

davie · Post by **davie** » 01 Mar 2017, 13:41

Watch and enjoy fellas

https://youtu.be/D-MCr7EjOis

davie · Post by **davie** » 01 Mar 2017, 13:43

https://youtu.be/7wffVDJx8H4

https://youtu.be/MeIEaVP9c1s

davie · Post by **davie** » 01 Mar 2017, 13:47

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 01 Mar 2017, 14:30

I've never seen gavilan/Jones, thx.

davie · Post by **davie** » 01 Mar 2017, 18:31

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I've never seen gavilan/Jones, thx.

I think I've seen Basillio vs Gavilan.

I haven't seen Gavilan vs Jones and I was working through Carmen Basilios 5 consecutive fights of the year and never got to Fullmer.

I did toy with putting the SRR fights in but could find footage of Gavilan vs Robinson.

Is that another one of these fights that some fucknugget thought it would be better not to film and keep?

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 01 Mar 2017, 18:48

davie wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I've never seen gavilan/Jones, thx.
I think I've seen Basillio vs Gavilan.

I haven't seen Gavilan vs Jones and I was working through Carmen Basilios 5 consecutive fights of the year and never got to Fullmer.

I did toy with putting the SRR fights in but could find footage of Gavilan vs Robinson.

Is that another one of these fights that some fucknugget thought it would be better not to film and keep?

No footage of them. Not much of that era at all.

davie · Post by **davie** » 01 Mar 2017, 18:52

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
davie wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I've never seen gavilan/Jones, thx.
I think I've seen Basillio vs Gavilan.

I haven't seen Gavilan vs Jones and I was working through Carmen Basilios 5 consecutive fights of the year and never got to Fullmer.

I did toy with putting the SRR fights in but could find footage of Gavilan vs Robinson.

Is that another one of these fights that some fucknugget thought it would be better not to film and keep?
No footage of them. Not much of that era at all.

Absolutely scandalous

I still remember a few years back trying to find footage of Moore vs Charles and asking on here, to find out there was none.
It was at this point someone mentioned Greb not having any footage at all, my head almost exploded

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 01 Mar 2017, 18:59

Somebody once told me that so much film was devoted to ww2 that they were low on film for other things and they also taped over stuff.

handsofstone · Post by **handsofstone** » 02 Mar 2017, 04:37

Ive seen plenty of Basilio over the years but this is the only one Gavilan's fights ive seen, he's a classy boxer and I remember him throwing bolos like they were jabs

Ive seen both Fullmer/Basilio fights as well, great scraps although I thought both stoppages were premature especially the rematch, Basilio was hard done by on both ocasions

Counter-puncher · Post by **Counter-puncher** » 02 Mar 2017, 19:13

Gavilán - Jones is a pretty good fight. I didn't score it but the 7-3 card looked a little wide, 5/4/1 or 6/4 looked about right.

BroughtonRulesRefuge · Post by **BroughtonRulesRefuge** » 04 Mar 2017, 12:41

- Gavilan/Robby exists at very least with both fights in part being accessible in the mid 2000s via youtube. Bunch of very rare and exotic tube fights available back then before the big purge. I kept a couple of dozen channel site addresses saved on my now wrecked computer, so for a couple of years spent much of my day scoring the newest update like a kid in a candy store. The Great A still exists if you want to find a unique fight for the topic, but he's one of the few survivors and has been heavily neutered, so not nearly the selection as before. No big loss as Kid/Robby both boxed defensively to cancel each other out in a pair of stinkers from they showed.

Against Basilio at least the Kid mixes in some fighting with boxing. I scored it 147-145 for Gavilan, but under modern scoring rules, the 2nd rd KD by Basilio would be an automatic 10-8 rd that would make my scoring a draw. I also scored 7 even rounds as the pace was slow and they both tended to box, but regardless of my non standard scoring of evenly contested rds, the right guy won. Basilio is a much better boxer than credited, but neither had much power. The Jones/Gavilan fight was the next step better because Jones a strong, aggressive fighter and the Kid showed some real moxie in going after him when needed.

Like I said before, I'd like to see Foreman/Young and Ali/Young side by side to compare the ridiculous judging and Cosell commentary in those fights.

davie · Post by **davie** » 04 Mar 2017, 15:51

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- Gavilan/Robby exists at very least with both fights in part being accessible in the mid 2000s via youtube. Bunch of very rare and exotic tube fights available back then before the big purge. I kept a couple of dozen channel site addresses saved on my now wrecked computer, so for a couple of years spent much of my day scoring the newest update like a kid in a candy store. The Great A still exists if you want to find a unique fight for the topic, but he's one of the few survivors and has been heavily neutered, so not nearly the selection as before. No big loss as Kid/Robby both boxed defensively to cancel each other out in a pair of stinkers from they showed.

Against Basilio at least the Kid mixes in some fighting with boxing. I scored it 147-145 for Gavilan, but under modern scoring rules, the 2nd rd KD by Basilio would be an automatic 10-8 rd that would make my scoring a draw. I also scored 7 even rounds as the pace was slow and they both tended to box, but regardless of my non standard scoring of evenly contested rds, the right guy won. Basilio is a much better boxer than credited, but neither had much power. The Jones/Gavilan fight was the next step better because Jones a strong, aggressive fighter and the Kid showed some real moxie in going after him when needed.

Like I said before, I'd like to see Foreman/Young and Ali/Young side by side to compare the ridiculous judging and Cosell commentary in those fights.

I'm always looking for suggestion, so they'll be the topic of week 10
I had planned an Archie Moore week, but I'll always push my preferences back for a good request.

Young is a funny fighter, some fantastic performances against greats then beaten by guys you wouldn't expect.

Who/what is this Great A you speak of???

davie · Post by **davie** » 05 Mar 2017, 01:20

Basilio vs Gavilan

Interesting fight, if not as action packed as some of the Basillio bouts I've seen recently

Carmen was not as aggressive or busy as usual and I think it cost him, I think I had him just edging it anyway but I thought he could have had success by applying more pressure.
The commentary spoke of a damaged eye but aside from that Gavilan didn't seem to be hurting him.

I've no doubt Gavilan was a good fighter but I've not seen anything that has impressed me greatly from him. He looks a nice tidy, accurate and sharp boxer. But certainly didn't seem to be able to pick it up or change style and that bolo punch just looks untidy and inefficient to me, I've really never seen what it adds.

Interesting contrast watching this fight right after tonights welterweight unification with Garcia and Thurman.
Both tentative affairs but intriguing to compare and contrast the similarities and differences between the eras.

I think Garcias counter punching style and Basillio's pressure fighting would have made for a nice match up

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 05 Mar 2017, 16:45

Ali/young is a hideous fight. I wouldn't ask anyone to watch that.

davie · Post by **davie** » 05 Mar 2017, 17:03

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Ali/young is a hideous fight. I wouldn't ask anyone to watch that.

It's not all about entertainment though Saad. We regularly discuss these fights, there's a lot of contentious issues and they're relevant in assessing the careers of ATG's

I was thinking of picking a fighter from that era, someone who had faced 3 or 4 from Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton/Holmes, to use as a comparison.
Young fits the bill nicely.
I'll put up the Norton or Foreman vs Young fight as the main bout and put the other one plus Ali fight as the supplementary's though, seeing as the Ali bout perhaps lacks thrills and spills.

But if every there was a scorecard which has caused talking points in boxing history it's Ali/Young

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 05 Mar 2017, 17:07

davie wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Ali/young is a hideous fight. I wouldn't ask anyone to watch that.
It's not all about entertainment though Saad. We regularly discuss these fights, there's a lot of contentious issues and they're relevant in assessing the careers of ATG's

I was thinking of picking a fighter from that era, someone who had faced 3 or 4 from Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton/Holmes, to use as a comparison.
Young fits the bill nicely.
I'll put up the Norton or Foreman vs Young fight as the main bout and put the other one plus Ali fight as the supplementary's though, seeing as the Ali bout perhaps lacks thrills and spills.

But if every there was a scorecard which has caused talking points in boxing history it's Ali/Young

By all means, it's your series and I saw a fight I've never seen out of it. There was an endless Ali/young thread on here before. I can sum it up for you. Everyone will agree the fight is rancid, almost everyone will agree that young clearly deserved to win, those that don't will complain about Young's head out of the ropes. Enjoy.

davie · Post by **davie** » 05 Mar 2017, 17:09

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
davie wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Ali/young is a hideous fight. I wouldn't ask anyone to watch that.
It's not all about entertainment though Saad. We regularly discuss these fights, there's a lot of contentious issues and they're relevant in assessing the careers of ATG's

I was thinking of picking a fighter from that era, someone who had faced 3 or 4 from Ali/Frazier/Foreman/Norton/Holmes, to use as a comparison.
Young fits the bill nicely.
I'll put up the Norton or Foreman vs Young fight as the main bout and put the other one plus Ali fight as the supplementary's though, seeing as the Ali bout perhaps lacks thrills and spills.

But if every there was a scorecard which has caused talking points in boxing history it's Ali/Young
By all means, it's your series and I saw a fight I've never seen out of it. There was an endless Ali/young thread on here before. I can sum it up for you. Everyone will agree the fight is rancid, almost everyone will agree that young clearly deserved to win, those that don't will complain about Young's head out of the ropes. Enjoy.

I think I've read such a thread! or 6

Maybe I'll do enough to put folk off the challenge for good and I can throw the towel in

davie · Post by **davie** » 05 Mar 2017, 17:54

Jones vs Gavilan was a good fight, enjoyed it more than the Gavilan v Basillio bout.

First 4 rounds had plenty of action, after which Gavilan went more on the back foot and boxed really well for the remainder of the fight,m with no shortage of action and round 10 was a good final round battle.

Scoring wise, I think I gave Jones 2 or 3 of the first 4 rounds. After which I think I probably only gave him one in the second half of the fight. somewhere in the region of 6-4 would have been fair.

An interesting move in the 7th. Gavilan had been getting into his comfort zone, fighting on the back foot, jabbing particularly well and setting traps for Jones. There were flurries of infighting but it was all on Gavilans terms. In the 7th Jones obviously just said fvck this and just refused to keep following him and went on the back foot himself and invited Gavilan on.
It fell back into the pattern of the boxer being back on the back foot and Jones following shortly after but I often wonder why fighter don't do this more often. Even if they are naturally a front foot aggressor, when it becomes apparent you are being outboxed, why not say, OK, I'm going to drag this guy out of his comfort zone and make him do some chasing. So many times you see the aggressor having no other plan B than to up the aggression and pursue harder only to keep getting jabbed and countered

davie · Post by **davie** » 05 Mar 2017, 21:08

Basillio vs Fullmer 1

Well the pattern of this fight established itself quickly. Basillio pursuing and throwing plenty of shots, with Fullmer backing up, more conservative with his shots. Fullmer looked the physically bigger fighter and heavier handed and when he did return fire he did so with intent.
Knowing this ended in a late finish was little surprise watching the output of Basillio and the heavy handedness of Fullmer but I never expected it to finish as it did. Basillio was tired and shipping some solid shots but without even going down the ref just split them and raised Fullmers hand. A crazy decision and spoilt what was a good fight. Surprised at the FOTY award, controversy of the year more like.

One of the judges had it 9 rounds between the two. I felt Basillio was landing enough to merit more than 2 of the rounds and his output was impressive right up until the last couple when he was reduced to largely following and throwing the jab. I think I perhaps had it to Fullmer by 3 or 4 by the finish and it was probably only headed one way, but I felt the stoppage was harsh.

An issue I had with Carmen was his relentless pursuit of an opponent. he was happy to circle and stay in range if you would hold the centre of the ring and fight him, he was happy just to walk after you if you decided to go on the back foot and if you were up for it and met him head on he'd stand and exchange at close quarters. Not much refinement in his work and not much educated pressure about his movement, just pressure.
He never cut the ring off or moved to make you miss or to create angles, he just moved.....forward.

But damn it made for some entertaining bouts

Tomasino · Post by **Tomasino** » 23 Apr 2017, 06:15

The Great A

davie · Post by **davie** » 23 Apr 2017, 07:10

Tomasino wrote:The Great A

???

Tomasino · Post by **Tomasino** » 23 Apr 2017, 07:11

davie wrote:
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:- Gavilan/Robby exists at very least with both fights in part being accessible in the mid 2000s via youtube. Bunch of very rare and exotic tube fights available back then before the big purge. I kept a couple of dozen channel site addresses saved on my now wrecked computer, so for a couple of years spent much of my day scoring the newest update like a kid in a candy store. The Great A still exists if you want to find a unique fight for the topic, but he's one of the few survivors and has been heavily neutered, so not nearly the selection as before. No big loss as Kid/Robby both boxed defensively to cancel each other out in a pair of stinkers from they showed.

Against Basilio at least the Kid mixes in some fighting with boxing. I scored it 147-145 for Gavilan, but under modern scoring rules, the 2nd rd KD by Basilio would be an automatic 10-8 rd that would make my scoring a draw. I also scored 7 even rounds as the pace was slow and they both tended to box, but regardless of my non standard scoring of evenly contested rds, the right guy won. Basilio is a much better boxer than credited, but neither had much power. The Jones/Gavilan fight was the next step better because Jones a strong, aggressive fighter and the Kid showed some real moxie in going after him when needed.

Like I said before, I'd like to see Foreman/Young and Ali/Young side by side to compare the ridiculous judging and Cosell commentary in those fights.
I'm always looking for suggestion, so they'll be the topic of week 10
I had planned an Archie Moore week, but I'll always push my preferences back for a good request.

Young is a funny fighter, some fantastic performances against greats then beaten by guys you wouldn't expect.

Who/what is this Great A you speak of???

^^^

davie · Post by **davie** » 23 Apr 2017, 08:17

I remember the conversation now, but who is this great A

I'm still none the wiser

World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan

Re: World boxing history challenge Week 9 - Carmen Basillio vs Kid Gavilan