Fight Films Lost To History

[evrenb]

Thats the point...this guy was telling us all these fights existed and they weren't known to at that time.i hear you Cap and it shouldnt be that way..but some guys make a lot of money selling to a few people only...

[klompton]

Let's cut to the chase. While it's really nice that a few guys have these collections of rare fight films, what good does it do anyone if they're hoarded just so you can say, "I have this and you don't."? These films need to be put up on Youtube or something so all boxing fans can enjoy them.

As to private filming of fights, I always heard it said that the Jeffries-Sharkey fight HLs were filmed by a fan with a camera hidden in a cigar box. Not sure how a movie camera back then would have fit inside a cigar box, but if it was done way back then, something similar was likely done many times later, especially with good quality home movie cameras. So, somewhere in America, in a shoebox or steamer trunk tucked away in a closet, attic or barn sits rare old fight films just waiting for collectors to snap them up and hide them in their closets....

A movie camera can easily be built into a cigar box casing. The problem would be that it wouldnt house much film.

As for films, Ive said it before and I'll say it again. If I spend a fortune on my films why should I post them on youtube for free so anybody can snatch it off there for nothing? Im not a charity. I buy my films for my personal enjoyment. I dont sell them and I rarely trade and then only to people I trust. I dont buy films to say "I have this and you dont." The bottom line is that anyone can have these films with hard work, money, and a good reputation. Ive spent years building a reputation as someone who isnt going to give this stuff away for free when someone who doesnt want it given away trusts me with it. Ive worked hard to acquire what I have and spent more than I can afford to get it. The problem with most people is they A. Dont want to put in the work to find or acquire this stuff. B. Dont want to spend the money. and C. Once they get one rare film they want to post it for free or trade it away so they can get their fifteen minutes of fame by pretending they have made a great discovery at the expense of the person who gave it to them. Ive been burned enough by these types to know better.

[Cap]

Let's cut to the chase. While it's really nice that a few guys have these collections of rare fight films, what good does it do anyone if they're hoarded just so you can say, "I have this and you don't."? These films need to be put up on Youtube or something so all boxing fans can enjoy them.

As to private filming of fights, I always heard it said that the Jeffries-Sharkey fight HLs were filmed by a fan with a camera hidden in a cigar box. Not sure how a movie camera back then would have fit inside a cigar box, but if it was done way back then, something similar was likely done many times later, especially with good quality home movie cameras. So, somewhere in America, in a shoebox or steamer trunk tucked away in a closet, attic or barn sits rare old fight films just waiting for collectors to snap them up and hide them in their closets....

A movie camera can easily be built into a cigar box casing. The problem would be that it wouldnt house much film.

As for films, Ive said it before and I'll say it again. If I spend a fortune on my films why should I post them on youtube for free so anybody can snatch it off there for nothing? Im not a charity. I buy my films for my personal enjoyment. I dont sell them and I rarely trade and then only to people I trust. I dont buy films to say "I have this and you dont." The bottom line is that anyone can have these films with hard work, money, and a good reputation. Ive spent years building a reputation as someone who isnt going to give this stuff away for free when someone who doesnt want it given away trusts me with it. Ive worked hard to acquire what I have and spent more than I can afford to get it. The problem with most people is they A. Dont want to put in the work to find or acquire this stuff. B. Dont want to spend the money. and C. Once they get one rare film they want to post it for free or trade it away so they can get their fifteen minutes of fame by pretending they have made a great discovery at the expense of the person who gave it to them. Ive been burned enough by these types to know better.

Well, I'm sure we're all happy for you and your collection, but coming on here to tell everyone what rare gems you have is idle boasting.

'nuff said.

[klompton]

Let's cut to the chase. While it's really nice that a few guys have these collections of rare fight films, what good does it do anyone if they're hoarded just so you can say, "I have this and you don't."? These films need to be put up on Youtube or something so all boxing fans can enjoy them.

As to private filming of fights, I always heard it said that the Jeffries-Sharkey fight HLs were filmed by a fan with a camera hidden in a cigar box. Not sure how a movie camera back then would have fit inside a cigar box, but if it was done way back then, something similar was likely done many times later, especially with good quality home movie cameras. So, somewhere in America, in a shoebox or steamer trunk tucked away in a closet, attic or barn sits rare old fight films just waiting for collectors to snap them up and hide them in their closets....

A movie camera can easily be built into a cigar box casing. The problem would be that it wouldnt house much film.

As for films, Ive said it before and I'll say it again. If I spend a fortune on my films why should I post them on youtube for free so anybody can snatch it off there for nothing? Im not a charity. I buy my films for my personal enjoyment. I dont sell them and I rarely trade and then only to people I trust. I dont buy films to say "I have this and you dont." The bottom line is that anyone can have these films with hard work, money, and a good reputation. Ive spent years building a reputation as someone who isnt going to give this stuff away for free when someone who doesnt want it given away trusts me with it. Ive worked hard to acquire what I have and spent more than I can afford to get it. The problem with most people is they A. Dont want to put in the work to find or acquire this stuff. B. Dont want to spend the money. and C. Once they get one rare film they want to post it for free or trade it away so they can get their fifteen minutes of fame by pretending they have made a great discovery at the expense of the person who gave it to them. Ive been burned enough by these types to know better.

Well, I'm sure we're all happy for you and your collection, but coming on here to tell everyone what rare gems you have is idle boasting.

'nuff said.

I guess thats the difference between you and me. When I see someone mentioning a rare fight that I dont have Im glad. If I know a film exists then I know I can get it. I dont take it as "idle boasting." When I was a kid I was a big fan of Buster Keaton. Back then you couldnt readily get most of his films. BUT they used to publish these photoplays that told the stories of his films illustrated by actual stills from the film. I didnt complain, I was just glad to be able to see even just those stills and know that the films were preserved somewhere. Now when I see someone has something rare that Im interested in Im willing to do the work or pay the money it takes to see it rather than b__tch and whine because I cant get it for free from youtube. But, since you take offense to the mere mention of a film in someones collection that you dont have Ill make sure never to mention any of my films on here again or show pictures of them. In essence if you cant see the films easily then you dont care if they had rotted or didnt exist at all. Sad but of sight out of mind right?

Is it ok to mention films that once existed but are not now known to survive or is that tease as well?

[Tomasino]

Just get all the good fights up on YouTube and relax a bit. Your books great btw.

[Rockytony67]

Just came across this

SPORTSNIGHT WITH COLEMAN

The busiest week of world heavyweight boxing. Tonight from the Madison Square Garden, New York, the twelve-round international heavyweight battle between
BUSTER MATHIS (Michigan) and JERRY QUARRY (Los Angeles)
Commentator, Harry Carpenter
Mathis, a six foot three inches, sixteen stone giant, is contracted to fight next for London promoter Harry Levene. Mathis has fought twenty-four professional contests.
Irish-American Quarry defeated Blackpool's Brian London one year ago: a former Golden Gloves heavyweight champion who wants to fight in Britain. In thirty professional contests he has revealed himself as a brave, swashbuckling Californian heavyweight.
If Mathis wins will he fight the winner of this week's Billy Walker -Jack Bodell battle at the Wembley Empire Pool?
THE GRAND NATIONAL PREVIEW
A night when racing's most famous steeplechase event is probed in detail by the amateur and professional jockeys.
Producer, BOB DUNCAN
Editor, SAM LEITCH


The fight was shown on the BBC whether they still have the film is anyone's guess

[evrenb]

The archivist at bbc confirmed to me that it doesn't exist. Or it's not known to exist. They are currently digitalising all their film.

[klompton]

BBC is notorious for having scrapped old programs. Either way this isnt the broadcast that Karl pretended to have as he told me Don Dunphy was the commentator. Thats the first clue that he was lying because that version couldnt have existed in the form he describes and wouldnt have been held in private hands. Had he said it was a silent home movie I might still hold hope but his story was simply not possible.

This does lend hope that an alternate version has survived but like I said the BBC was really bad at preservation.

[evrenb]

There is a guy in the UK that has most of the BBC broadcasts from the 50's and 60's. I will check with him...this has always been my biggest belief/hope to its existence...

[Rockytony67]

There's also this one

10 May
1972
21.20 Sportsnight with Coleman

International Boxing from Wembley's Empire Pool
Jerry Quarry, world-rated No 2 heavyweight versus fellow-American Larry Middleton, world's No 7, over 10 rounds in an eliminating contest for the World Heavyweight Championship, promoted by Harry Levene.
Commentator Harry Carpenter
International Athletics from Crystal Palace
An international meeting with Borough Road College (the strongest athletics college in the country) versus the AAA. Guest appearances from American and European stars.
Commentators David Coleman and Ron Pickering

Again same as the Mathis fight, don't know if there is film of this elsewhere? has anyone ever seen any film of this fight?

[mikeycapp]

Hello Rockytony,

Many of those BBC Boxing Broadcasts do exist from the 1960's and 1970's however they have been condensed to highlight form. Some are complete however I am not sure what the reasoning was in highlighting some and keeping others in their complete form. Many of the Gillette Broadcasts and even some Pabst Blue Ribbons are condensed to a 30 Minute format it was titled "Fight of The Week" by the BBC.

Sincerely

Mikey Capp

[Rockytony67]

Thanks Mickey

[mikeycapp]

You are quite welcome Rocky Tony!

Sincerely

Mikey Capp

[evrenb]

The condensing was probably down to the very limited time BBC had then. 9am - 11pm. One channel until BBC2 came along. I also enquired with BBC about the Middleton vs Quarry and they said no. But a lot of the stuff is still being found and not catalogued.

[Caractacus]

BBC is notorious for having scrapped old programs.
but like I said the BBC was really bad at preservation.

Thats a bit of an understatement isnt it?
Like they use to say back in the 1970's.
No sh*t Sherlock!

[elmersalsa]

I dont think it would hurt to make a listing of well known celebrities of the 1950's and 1960's
who were big boxing fans particularly if they are still alive.
Maybe someone can contact their agents to ask.

Lee Majors(The Big Valley) was a big boxing fan and he is still alive(born 1939).

Actually, the families of older boxers from the 50's and 60's have the collections that need to be shown. Over the years, boxers like my father were in constant contact with Jim Jacobs getting "copies" of their fights on 16mm film. Once word got out of such a favor by Jim, dozens upon dozens of fighters got copies of their fights. The fighters had to send releases stating they would not show them for-profit. Craig from Jo-Sports had bought Jim Jacobs letters and copies of such releases signed by the fighters and I just bought my dads copy that Jim Jacob had.

As these films got torn and worn-film collectors from across the country bought these films (usually in a trade off) from the fighters. In return several of these collectors had the means to restore these films and place them on the latest medium at that time. First VHS then eventually DVD. They would then send the latest medium to the boxer (usually several copies of the tapes of each fight submitted in return).

I can also tell you many fight films are in England. In the mid 1990's collector Tony Fosco found out that my fathers fight vs Joey Rowan existed in 16mm negative form there by a collector. He made a deal to purchase it and I went 50-50 with him. He made a positive print of the film, put it on DVD and sent me several copies. Its the entire TV fight from St Nicks.Who knows how any films are in Europe too.

Same could be said for the audio of radio recordings as I have a copy of Gilette Calvacade of Sports Don Duphy's radio call of my fathers 2nd fight vs Ceasr Brion on first cassette, then CD.
There is no doubt that many of these recordings are still in possession by family members or been traded in for updating.
I can tell you that my father acquired a few Jake LaMotta fights, Dempsey fights and others, so that when he showed them in bars and clubs, he didnt just show his fights.

Here is a copy of my fathers contract with Jacobs. Whether its legal or not, doesnt matter to us, as he did all fighters a great service and if you think about it,anyone viewing films a great service to by putting out there from a private collection.


Having spoke to my father several times and seeing pictures with him and celebrities after several of his fights, I can tell you that actor Phil Silvers, Jimmy Durante, comedian Jan Murray and baseball legend Joe DiMaggio were constant attendees at my fathers fights when possible. Especially Joe DiMaggio, a huge fan, and hardly missed a Yankee Stadium fight unless Yanks were out of town, but even after he retired he was a constant show-up at the fights at the Garden too. Whether these individuals had films I do not know.

Hey, that agreement with Jim Jacobs was done on my birthday. Interesting

[Caractacus]

was just wondering if any have turned up since this thread was started ?

[Caractacus]

The two exhibitions that Jack Johnson did at Leavenworth Kansas May 1921 were filmed.
The footage was to be included in a documentary about Leavenworth
that was being filmed at the time .
But at the screening the warden ordered that the Jack Johnson footage be
removed before the final print was made.

interesting
who did he fight in Levenworth anyway ?

[klompton]

Answering your own posts now, lol.

[klompton]

But yes, in answer to your question, I have knocked several items off the "lost to history list." Some, like Willie Lewis-Costello, Moir-Tiger Smith, and Welsh-Jack Daniels, I already had in my collection but had overlooked. Others I have discovered.

[BoxBuzz]

and still not a greb or rosenbloom fight to be found.....I assume.

[davie]

Say I were to uncover a complete recording, in pristine condition of Harry Greb against the likes of Gene Tunney, Tiger Flowers,Mickey Walker, Tommy Loughran or Tommy/Mike Gibbons for instance.

What kind of money would it go for?















I absolutely haven't got any of them..... I cleared them all out when I emptied the loft in 2011

[pound per pound]

Let's cut to the chase. While it's really nice that a few guys have these collections of rare fight films, what good does it do anyone if they're hoarded just so you can say, "I have this and you don't."? These films need to be put up on Youtube or something so all boxing fans can enjoy them.

As to private filming of fights, I always heard it said that the Jeffries-Sharkey fight HLs were filmed by a fan with a camera hidden in a cigar box. Not sure how a movie camera back then would have fit inside a cigar box, but if it was done way back then, something similar was likely done many times later, especially with good quality home movie cameras. So, somewhere in America, in a shoebox or steamer trunk tucked away in a closet, attic or barn sits rare old fight films just waiting for collectors to snap them up and hide them in their closets....

When the legendary historian Hank Kaplan passed away years ago, he donated his entire collection to the Brooklyn Library for the fans to view. The collection was large enough to fill his garage.

Word is a few fight film collectors took out pieces, and made copies of it, then sold it to those who were unaware it could be viewed for free.

But I'm with you. What good is it buying these films, and shielding them from the public? Its like framing a $500.00 bill and never spending it, while at the same time worrying if you view it, or dare lend it out, the net worth won't be the same.

[klompton]

Let's cut to the chase. While it's really nice that a few guys have these collections of rare fight films, what good does it do anyone if they're hoarded just so you can say, "I have this and you don't."? These films need to be put up on Youtube or something so all boxing fans can enjoy them.

As to private filming of fights, I always heard it said that the Jeffries-Sharkey fight HLs were filmed by a fan with a camera hidden in a cigar box. Not sure how a movie camera back then would have fit inside a cigar box, but if it was done way back then, something similar was likely done many times later, especially with good quality home movie cameras. So, somewhere in America, in a shoebox or steamer trunk tucked away in a closet, attic or barn sits rare old fight films just waiting for collectors to snap them up and hide them in their closets....

When the legendary historian Hank Kaplan passed away years ago, he donated his entire collection to the Brooklyn Library for the fans to view. The collection was large enough to fill his garage.

Word is a few fight film collectors took out pieces, and made copies of it, then sold it to those who were unaware it could be viewed for free.

But I'm with you. What good is it buying these films, and shielding them from the public? Its like framing a $500.00 bill and never spending it, while at the same time worrying if you view it, or dare lend it out, the net worth won't be the same.

Thats a stupid analogy. Fight films are easily copied and desiminated lowering their value. Money isnt and when that does happen its considered one of the most serious crimes in any nation.

[Caractacus]

That contract with Jim Jacobs and Big Fights Inc. was rich considering since it was Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton who had double-crossed Former Heavyweight champion Jess Willard who was the one who originally spent his time and money searching and finally found the collector in Sydney Australia in 1959 who had a print of the Willard-Johnson fight after Willard was searching for it for almost 2 years.
Willard sued Jacobs and Cayton for One Million dollars
in 1962 for "Breach of contract and fraud",Here is a link to a newspaper article to prove it.

http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?n ... 804,898622

Mmmmmm ...Very interesting.
Thanks Brutu !
yoo Da mAN !