David Haye vs. Tony Bellew?

[Covfefe]

Well ... I called that Bellew would win. So yes, I called what happened.

And I still don't get why anyone thinks Chisora is any good.

Because we've seen him and Bellew box. And no one is saying he's a world beater, we're saying he'd beat Tony Bellew.

You fluked that pick, you cannot predict something like that.

I think it was a legit call based on up to the minute intelligence.

What would have made it a illegitimate pick? I don't believe for a second he picked Bellew because of any information he has.

[crusader]

Haye was winning comfortably until his leg gave out. Bellew was largely just surviving until then.

Juji never mentioned anything like an injury, so not really an apology worthy outcome. I still think Chisora would clearly beat Bellew, and hed stop one legged Haye too; a lot of guys would,.....

[Tanzio]

Because we've seen him and Bellew box. And no one is saying he's a world beater, we're saying he'd beat Tony Bellew.

You fluked that pick, you cannot predict something like that.

I think it was a legit call based on up to the minute intelligence.

What would have made it a illegitimate pick? I don't believe for a second he picked Bellew because of any information he has.

His pick was based on the same information that we all had access to. He got it right. Us? Not so much.

[crusader]

True, but the previous discussion was about the overall levels of each fighter, without a major injury being assumed. I dont think Saturday proved whatsoever that Bellew is better than Haye or Chisora when theyre remotely healthy, but it did show that TB can get the better of one legged Haye, which I certainly wouldnt have disagreed with ahead of time.

The most prediction credit should go to those who thought injuries would get to Haye and allow TB to pull through. I think Ive seen only one or two of those....

[Covfefe]

I think it was a legit call based on up to the minute intelligence.

What would have made it a illegitimate pick? I don't believe for a second he picked Bellew because of any information he has.

His pick was based on the same information that we all had access to. He got it right. Us? Not so much.

But the discussion was about whether Bellew is better than Chisora. And he's not, hes not better than haye either. Anyone who thinks they have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance is an idiot.

[Tanzio]

What would have made it a illegitimate pick? I don't believe for a second he picked Bellew because of any information he has.

His pick was based on the same information that we all had access to. He got it right. Us? Not so much.

But the discussion was about whether Bellew is better than Chisora. And he's not, hes not better than haye either. Anyone who thinks they have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance is an idiot.

I don't think anyone claimed to "have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance." Jujigatame got the pick right. He correctly predicted that if TB survived the first 5 or 6 rounds that he would defeat Haye. It does not matter how that actually happened, jujigatame was correct.

One pick does not suggest superiority. Belittling the fact that he was correct while you were not is a weak look. While jujigatame did not specifically state that injury would be involved, it is obvious that he was taking into consideration Haye's age, which inherently involved a higher risk of injury.

If there is any arrogance being exhibited in this thread it is the assumption of luck assigned to TB's victory. Bellew defeated an older, at one time superior athlete who had been inactive for a very long time before defeating two opponents whom had no business being in the same ring with him. Anyone who failed to take the high risk of injury to Haye into account did not properly analyze the fight.

That is why I took Haye by close decision (and got it wrong). The fact that Bellew defeated Haye because of injury does not degrade the victory, or the correct predictions, imo. Nearly everyone predicted that Haye would win easily within 5 rounds. He did not. The assumption that Haye would have won that fight if he had not sustained the 5th round injury is naive at best and in certain cases pure arrogance.

Congrats to Bellew and all those who picked him to win, including jujigatame.

[Covfefe]

His pick was based on the same information that we all had access to. He got it right. Us? Not so much.

But the discussion was about whether Bellew is better than Chisora. And he's not, hes not better than haye either. Anyone who thinks they have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance is an idiot.

I don't think anyone claimed to "have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance." Jujigatame got the pick right. He correctly predicted that if TB survived the first 5 or 6 rounds that he would defeat Haye. It does not matter how that actually happened, jujigatame was correct.

One pick does not suggest superiority. Belittling the fact that he was correct while you were not is a weak look. While jujigatame did not specifically state that injury would be involved, it is obvious that he was taking into consideration Haye's age, which inherently involved a higher risk of injury.

If there is any arrogance being exhibited in this thread it is the assumption of luck assigned to TB's victory. Bellew defeated an older, at one time superior athlete who had been inactive for a very long time before defeating two opponents whom had no business being in the same ring with him. Anyone who failed to take the high risk of injury to Haye into account did not properly analyze the fight.

That is why I took Haye by close decision (and got it wrong). The fact that Bellew defeated Haye because of injury does not degrade the victory, or the correct predictions, imo. Nearly everyone predicted that Haye would win easily within 5 rounds. He did not. The assumption that Haye would have won that fight if he had not sustained the 5th round injury is naive at best and in certain cases pure arrogance.

Congrats to Bellew and all those who picked him to win, including jujigatame.

What reason has anyone got to think Bellew could win without the injury? It took him five rounds to knock down a one legged fighter who was stood still letting Bomber tee off on him. Also, did Jujig say if Bomber took him late it? He certainly didn't say it in this thread.

[crusader]

Haye being one legged certainly makes the victory far less impressive. Bellew beat a seriously injured fighter and was down multiple rounds prior to that fighter blowing his leg out; it wasn't nearly the same as beating a fit Haye, or even Haye at 70 percent, and it's obvious that the injury played a huge role in Bellew taking over the fight.

Incidentally, this reminds me of Tanzio giving the great Charles Martin credit for his masterful ability to make opponents tear their ACLs

[Tanzio]

But the discussion was about whether Bellew is better than Chisora. And he's not, hes not better than haye either. Anyone who thinks they have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance is an idiot.

I don't think anyone claimed to "have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance." Jujigatame got the pick right. He correctly predicted that if TB survived the first 5 or 6 rounds that he would defeat Haye. It does not matter how that actually happened, jujigatame was correct.

One pick does not suggest superiority. Belittling the fact that he was correct while you were not is a weak look. While jujigatame did not specifically state that injury would be involved, it is obvious that he was taking into consideration Haye's age, which inherently involved a higher risk of injury.

If there is any arrogance being exhibited in this thread it is the assumption of luck assigned to TB's victory. Bellew defeated an older, at one time superior athlete who had been inactive for a very long time before defeating two opponents whom had no business being in the same ring with him. Anyone who failed to take the high risk of injury to Haye into account did not properly analyze the fight.

That is why I took Haye by close decision (and got it wrong). The fact that Bellew defeated Haye because of injury does not degrade the victory, or the correct predictions, imo. Nearly everyone predicted that Haye would win easily within 5 rounds. He did not. The assumption that Haye would have won that fight if he had not sustained the 5th round injury is naive at best and in certain cases pure arrogance.

Congrats to Bellew and all those who picked him to win, including jujigatame.

What reason has anyone got to think Bellew could win without the injury? It took him five rounds to knock down a one legged fighter who was stood still letting Bomber tee off on him. Also, did Jujig say if Bomber took him late it? He certainly didn't say it in this thread.

What reason do people have to think that Haye would have won? His body broke down more than Bellew's and Haye lost. We have no idea how that fight was going to play out if not for the injury. We were wrong. Jujigatame was correct. Why is it so difficult for you to give credit where it is due?

[Covfefe]

I don't think anyone claimed to "have superior boxing knowledge based on that piece of chance." Jujigatame got the pick right. He correctly predicted that if TB survived the first 5 or 6 rounds that he would defeat Haye. It does not matter how that actually happened, jujigatame was correct.

One pick does not suggest superiority. Belittling the fact that he was correct while you were not is a weak look. While jujigatame did not specifically state that injury would be involved, it is obvious that he was taking into consideration Haye's age, which inherently involved a higher risk of injury.

If there is any arrogance being exhibited in this thread it is the assumption of luck assigned to TB's victory. Bellew defeated an older, at one time superior athlete who had been inactive for a very long time before defeating two opponents whom had no business being in the same ring with him. Anyone who failed to take the high risk of injury to Haye into account did not properly analyze the fight.

That is why I took Haye by close decision (and got it wrong). The fact that Bellew defeated Haye because of injury does not degrade the victory, or the correct predictions, imo. Nearly everyone predicted that Haye would win easily within 5 rounds. He did not. The assumption that Haye would have won that fight if he had not sustained the 5th round injury is naive at best and in certain cases pure arrogance.

Congrats to Bellew and all those who picked him to win, including jujigatame.

What reason has anyone got to think Bellew could win without the injury? It took him five rounds to knock down a one legged fighter who was stood still letting Bomber tee off on him. Also, did Jujig say if Bomber took him late it? He certainly didn't say it in this thread.

What reason do people have to think that Haye would have won? His body broke down more than Bellew's and Haye lost. We have no idea how that fight was going to play out if not for the injury. We were wrong. Jujigatame was correct. Why is it so difficult for you to give credit where it is due?

You said he said things he didn't say in this thread, if he said them elsewhere fine but I'd be interested to read them. I suspect you're just mistaken. It has nothing to do with credit, I give no one picking Bellew credit for that win.

If you can't look at the information from the fight and think Haye would have won without the injury then you're helpless. Bellew was tiring and blowing hard not Haye after five, Haye was the one starting to land often and powerfully, Bellew was mostly keeping away from Haye, and when Haye was injured he took Bellew's best shots for five rounds before he got dropped (shots Bellew wouldn't have been landing had Haye been able to move). We can assuredly say Haye would have won without the injury.

[Tanzio]

Haye being one legged certainly makes the victory far less impressive. Bellew beat a seriously injured fighter and was down multiple rounds prior to that fighter blowing his leg out; it wasn't nearly the same as beating a fit Haye, or even Haye at 70 percent, and it's obvious that the injury played a huge role in Bellew taking over the fight.

Incidentally, this reminds me of Tanzio giving the great Charles Martin credit for his masterful ability to make opponents tear their ACLs

The two of you are pathetic losers as demonstrated in your inability to give Bellew and jujigatame the credit they deserve.

Bellew defeated the Haye put before him. Bellew did put significant pressure on Haye to perform beyond the capabilities of the current state of his body, as did Martin.

I repeat, your disrespect of Bellew (who it now appears fought the majority of the fight with a broken hand) and jujigatame who correctly predicted the victor (which we all failed to do) is a very weak look.

But, please proceed.

[Covfefe]

He didn't beat he Haye put in front of him at all. The Haye in front of him had Bellew running and avoiding engaging. Bellew had to wait till the Haye in front of him suffered an injury. Did you see the fight?

[crusader]

Haye being one legged certainly makes the victory far less impressive. Bellew beat a seriously injured fighter and was down multiple rounds prior to that fighter blowing his leg out; it wasn't nearly the same as beating a fit Haye, or even Haye at 70 percent, and it's obvious that the injury played a huge role in Bellew taking over the fight.

Incidentally, this reminds me of Tanzio giving the great Charles Martin credit for his masterful ability to make opponents tear their ACLs

The two of you are pathetic losers as demonstrated in your inability to give Bellew and jujigatame the credit they deserve.

Bellew defeated the Haye put before him. Bellew did put significant pressure on Haye to perform beyond the capabilities of the current state of his body, as did Martin.

I repeat, your disrespect of Bellew (who it now appears fought the majority of the fight with a broken hand) and jujigatame who correctly predicted the victor (which we all failed to do) is a very weak look.

But, please proceed.

There goes the 'not giving credit' crusader again It's great that you've found a cause in your dotage, even if it sometimes calls for total fabrication (see your comments to gil following Diaz-McG II).

Bellew took Haye's shots better than I expected, and credit to him for not folding early, but he was down several rounds and showing no signs of coming on before the injury happened. He very much lucked out and was able to win because his otherwise superior opponent was reduced to fighting on virtually one leg, and to me Bellew doesn't deserve loads of credit for winning in that circumstance.

Bellew and Charles Martin can fight, and then we can see who shows their leg injuring mastery first. You can then complain about the non-crippled winner not getting enough credit...

[Tanzio]

What reason has anyone got to think Bellew could win without the injury? It took him five rounds to knock down a one legged fighter who was stood still letting Bomber tee off on him. Also, did Jujig say if Bomber took him late it? He certainly didn't say it in this thread.

What reason do people have to think that Haye would have won? His body broke down more than Bellew's and Haye lost. We have no idea how that fight was going to play out if not for the injury. We were wrong. Jujigatame was correct. Why is it so difficult for you to give credit where it is due?

You said he said things he didn't say in this thread, if he said them elsewhere fine but I'd be interested to read them. I suspect you're just mistaken. It has nothing to do with credit, I give no one picking Bellew credit for that win.

If you can't look at the information from the fight and think Haye would have won without the injury then you're helpless. Bellew was tiring and blowing hard not Haye after five, Haye was the one starting to land often and powerfully, Bellew was mostly keeping away from Haye, and when Haye was injured he took Bellew's best shots for five rounds before he got dropped (shots Bellew wouldn't have been landing had Haye been able to move). We can assuredly say Haye would have won without the injury.

You have a problem with facing reality, don't you?

Haye is old. His body is more decrepit then his age. He retired in his prime, when he was a superior athlete. His return was pathetic from the start. Sad really.

That is the Haye that Bellew faced. Bellew understood better than you who he was facing. But you must rationalize your failure to understand how far Haye had degraded by doubling down on your mistaken prediction and claiming something that can never be proven.

I suppose that I could make a ridiculously unfounded claim like that by saying that Bellew would have ktfo Haye before he was injured if Tony had not broken his hand. But I would not do that because I have no proof of it.

Haye failed to do what over 90% of the people were obliviously convinced that he would accomplish; ktfo Bellew in 5 or less. But you now accuse everyone of being clueless who does not believe in your conception of what would have happened in that fight if a decrepit old boxer had not been injured in round 5. Guess what? He would have likely been injured in round 6 or 7 or 8 or 9.

Slap yourself out of your delusional grandeurism. You picked a shell of the fighter of your dreams.

[Covfefe]

What reason do people have to think that Haye would have won? His body broke down more than Bellew's and Haye lost. We have no idea how that fight was going to play out if not for the injury. We were wrong. Jujigatame was correct. Why is it so difficult for you to give credit where it is due?

You said he said things he didn't say in this thread, if he said them elsewhere fine but I'd be interested to read them. I suspect you're just mistaken. It has nothing to do with credit, I give no one picking Bellew credit for that win.

If you can't look at the information from the fight and think Haye would have won without the injury then you're helpless. Bellew was tiring and blowing hard not Haye after five, Haye was the one starting to land often and powerfully, Bellew was mostly keeping away from Haye, and when Haye was injured he took Bellew's best shots for five rounds before he got dropped (shots Bellew wouldn't have been landing had Haye been able to move). We can assuredly say Haye would have won without the injury.

You have a problem with facing reality, don't you?

Haye is old. His body is more decrepit then his age. He retired in his prime, when he was a superior athlete. His return was pathetic from the start. Sad really.

That is the Haye that Bellew faced. Bellew understood better than you who he was facing. But you must rationalize your failure to understand how far Haye had degraded by doubling down on your mistaken prediction and claiming something that can never be proven.

I suppose that I could make a ridiculously unfounded claim like that by saying that Bellew would have ktfo Haye before he was injured if Tony had not broken his hand. But I would not do that because I have no proof of it.

Haye failed to do what over 90% of the people were obliviously convinced that he would accomplish; ktfo Bellew in 5 or less. But you now accuse everyone of being clueless who does not believe in your conception of what would have happened in that fight if a decrepit old boxer had not been injured in round 5. Guess what? He would have likely been injured in round 6 or 7 or 8 or 9.

Slap yourself out of your delusional grandeurism. You picked a shell of the fighter of your dreams.

Why are you ignoring the things I'm saying to you and insulting me? What is your problem? If you're just going to ignore what I'm saying what the point in even talking to you?

Also, he was injured in round 6. Not 5.

[Tanzio]

He didn't beat he Haye put in front of him at all. The Haye in front of him had Bellew running and avoiding engaging. Bellew had to wait till the Haye in front of him suffered an injury. Did you see the fight?

Bellew defeated a sad old boxer with delusions of grandeur similar to his fans.

Obviously, you failed to actually see the fight. Bellew won, deservedly. He would have never gotten into the ring with the 2012 version of Haye.

[Tanzio]

You said he said things he didn't say in this thread, if he said them elsewhere fine but I'd be interested to read them. I suspect you're just mistaken. It has nothing to do with credit, I give no one picking Bellew credit for that win.

If you can't look at the information from the fight and think Haye would have won without the injury then you're helpless. Bellew was tiring and blowing hard not Haye after five, Haye was the one starting to land often and powerfully, Bellew was mostly keeping away from Haye, and when Haye was injured he took Bellew's best shots for five rounds before he got dropped (shots Bellew wouldn't have been landing had Haye been able to move). We can assuredly say Haye would have won without the injury.

You have a problem with facing reality, don't you?

Haye is old. His body is more decrepit then his age. He retired in his prime, when he was a superior athlete. His return was pathetic from the start. Sad really.

That is the Haye that Bellew faced. Bellew understood better than you who he was facing. But you must rationalize your failure to understand how far Haye had degraded by doubling down on your mistaken prediction and claiming something that can never be proven.

I suppose that I could make a ridiculously unfounded claim like that by saying that Bellew would have ktfo Haye before he was injured if Tony had not broken his hand. But I would not do that because I have no proof of it.

Haye failed to do what over 90% of the people were obliviously convinced that he would accomplish; ktfo Bellew in 5 or less. But you now accuse everyone of being clueless who does not believe in your conception of what would have happened in that fight if a decrepit old boxer had not been injured in round 5. Guess what? He would have likely been injured in round 6 or 7 or 8 or 9.

Slap yourself out of your delusional grandeurism. You picked a shell of the fighter of your dreams.

Why are you ignoring the things I'm saying to you and insulting me? What is your problem? If you're just going to ignore what I'm saying what the point in even talking to you?

Also, he was injured in round 6. Not 5.

My mistake on the round and if jujigatame did not take into account Haye's age and proclivity for injury I will admit that mistake too.

You see how that works? Try it some time.

As far as insult goes, you have been insulting anyone who does not agree with you throughout this thread. You simply cannot admit that you were simply mistaken. Jujigatame got it right, we did not.

I had the fight 3-2 going into the 6th. My prediction of a close decision for Haye was looking decent at that point.

How was yours looking at that point?

[Tanzio]

Haye being one legged certainly makes the victory far less impressive. Bellew beat a seriously injured fighter and was down multiple rounds prior to that fighter blowing his leg out; it wasn't nearly the same as beating a fit Haye, or even Haye at 70 percent, and it's obvious that the injury played a huge role in Bellew taking over the fight.

Incidentally, this reminds me of Tanzio giving the great Charles Martin credit for his masterful ability to make opponents tear their ACLs

The two of you are pathetic losers as demonstrated in your inability to give Bellew and jujigatame the credit they deserve.

Bellew defeated the Haye put before him. Bellew did put significant pressure on Haye to perform beyond the capabilities of the current state of his body, as did Martin.

I repeat, your disrespect of Bellew (who it now appears fought the majority of the fight with a broken hand) and jujigatame who correctly predicted the victor (which we all failed to do) is a very weak look.

But, please proceed.

There goes the 'not giving credit' crusader again It's great that you've found a cause in your dotage, even if it sometimes calls for total fabrication (see your comments to gil following Diaz-McG II).

Bellew took Haye's shots better than I expected, and credit to him for not folding early, but he was down several rounds and showing no signs of coming on before the injury happened. He very much lucked out and was able to win because his otherwise superior opponent was reduced to fighting on virtually one leg, and to me Bellew doesn't deserve loads of credit for winning in that circumstance.

Bellew and Charles Martin can fight, and then we can see who shows their leg injuring mastery first. You can then complain about the non-crippled winner not getting enough credit...

Actually, you are the crusader who has deemed it your passion to follow and catalogue my every post. Please do fill us in on a post of mine from several months ago, crusader. Very flattering.

I couldn't care less what you have posted in the last hour, much less months and years ago.

Are you infatuated with me crusader? This isn't the first time that you pull dusty posts of mine from your hope chest, is it?

Sorry, there is no hope for you.

[Enlightened-One]

First of all, great fight! I’m delighted about getting value for money from the Haye-Bellew PPV!

Second, whilst I’m not particularly upset about Tony Bellew’s victory, I sincerely doubt he would have been able to score the win without exploiting David Haye’s unfortunate injury, which was simply a tragic and freakish piece of bad luck.

Whilst Tony Bellew’s victory over David Haye was fantastically exciting to watch, a real rocky story where the outcome has secured the future for his family… I don’t think he’d be competitive against any of the top heavyweights. I don’t see anything he does particularly well to trouble any of them.

In term of David Haye, I’ve read that an Achilles injury like the one he suffered could take nine months to recover from. And whilst the rematch would almost certainly be Bellew’s most lucrative and winnable bout at heavyweight, he’s not going to sit around and remain inactive in order to wait for Haye to recover. Instead, the Liverpudlian will inevitably try to secure one final payday against the likes of Parker or Wilder, before retiring from the sport altogether.

If this scenario becomes reality and the Hayemaker is physically unable to compete in an immediate rematch against Bellew within the next four or five months, then I suspect that David Haye will retire, because I doubt he’ll try to rebuild his career during 2018, when he’ll be approaching 38 years of age.

[jujigatame]

Well ... I called that Bellew would win. So yes, I called what happened.

And I still don't get why anyone thinks Chisora is any good.

Because we've seen him and Bellew box. And no one is saying he's a world beater, we're saying he'd beat Tony Bellew.

You fluked that pick, you cannot predict something like that.

Well you are just no fun at all.

[Covfefe]

Well ... I called that Bellew would win. So yes, I called what happened.

And I still don't get why anyone thinks Chisora is any good.

Because we've seen him and Bellew box. And no one is saying he's a world beater, we're saying he'd beat Tony Bellew.

You fluked that pick, you cannot predict something like that.

Well you are just no fun at all.

I do try.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nobody cares about bellews broken hand. Poor guy. I think everyone who picked Thurman was wrong because he didn't let Garcia punch him. Bizarre argument.

[crusader]

Yes, because Haye really snapped his Achilles when he got dropped, right Henry

https://twitter.com/jwhjake/status/8381 ... 68/video/1