The Manassa Mauler vs the Livermore Larupper vs the Brockton Blockbuster

[Kalan]

If only Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench would have been boxers. Obviously they would have been awesome.

That's something we don't know...isn't it??? ... But they certainly had more athleticism and raw material to work with than Rocky had.

We DO know that Marciano wasn't awesome - either as a baseball catcher where his arm was too weak...or as a boxer, where he was too short, slow, light, clumsy, and a sitting duck for any outstanding prime career Heavyweight with good size, strength, height, speed, and boxing skills -- which George Foreman didn't have real excellent speed or boxing skills, but that didn't stop him from crushing a walk-in slugger like Joe Frazier -- who was mismatched in height, weight, reach, strength, and punching power.

That one sure fooled the "experts" who had Frazier a big fav

[HomicideHenry]

Depends on which version of Max Baer wanted to show up..... don't let the "clown act" fool you.... Baer was one of the last heavyweights to compete in twenty round contests and go that distance.... As big as he was, powerful as he was, as dirty as he could be (Galento for example) and as viscious as he could be (Schmeling for example) he is probably most comparable to George Foreman in his youth just brutalizing guys with sheer force.... As much as I like Rocky and Dempsey, I don't know how effective a swarming/bobbing/weaving kind of man would do with a tall, powerful guy who could easily of taken their head off with a well placed uppercut like Foreman did Frazier..... so all things considered..... "Who knows?"

Now Dempsey versus Marciano.... that is the greatest fight in hypothetical heavyweight history.... both men virtually the same in every regard, Marciano probably hit harder and was the greater conditioned; Dempsey was the faster and more explosive of the two men.... I have to think that maybe someway, somehow, Marciano manages to overwhelm Dempsey in the middle rounds.... Dempsey was phenomenal in the first five, seemed to rest for the next five, only to come back strong in the last five (Gibbons); whereas Marciano (rather remarkably) could increase his punch rate from round one onwards, he became a greater work horse as the rounds went on. Hence why I think Marciano could have taken Dempsey, provided if Marciano wasn't all busted to hell first.

[davie]

Depends on which version of Max Baer wanted to show up..... don't let the "clown act" fool you.... Baer was one of the last heavyweights to compete in twenty round contests and go that distance.... As big as he was, powerful as he was, as dirty as he could be (Galento for example) and as viscious as he could be (Schmeling for example) he is probably most comparable to George Foreman in his youth just brutalizing guys with sheer force.... As much as I like Rocky and Dempsey, I don't know how effective a swarming/bobbing/weaving kind of man would do with a tall, powerful guy who could easily of taken their head off with a well placed uppercut like Foreman did Frazier..... so all things considered..... "Who knows?"

Now Dempsey versus Marciano.... that is the greatest fight in hypothetical heavyweight history.... both men virtually the same in every regard, Marciano probably hit harder and was the greater conditioned; Dempsey was the faster and more explosive of the two men.... I have to think that maybe someway, somehow, Marciano manages to overwhelm Dempsey in the middle rounds.... Dempsey was phenomenal in the first five, seemed to rest for the next five, only to come back strong in the last five (Gibbons); whereas Marciano (rather remarkably) could increase his punch rate from round one onwards, he became a greater work horse as the rounds went on. Hence why I think Marciano could have taken Dempsey, provided if Marciano wasn't all busted to hell first.

One thing I did think when I started this thread, was that none of these 3 imaginary match ups would go the same way every time

If any of these guys faced the other, say 3 or 4 times, each would manage to score at least a win, most likely by knock out. I'd be astounded if any could be dominant over another

[Kalan]

Now Dempsey versus Marciano.... that is the greatest fight in hypothetical heavyweight history.... both men virtually the same in every regard, Marciano probably hit harder and was the greater conditioned; Dempsey was the faster and more explosive of the two men.... I have to think that maybe someway, somehow, Marciano manages to overwhelm Dempsey in the middle rounds

Not so fast... You have to remember that Dempsey took years away from training and fighting when he was Heavyweight Champion.. He was idolized and made tons of money on tour... He took 2 years off from boxing following the Carpentier fight and looked worse than terrible against Gibbons.. He took 3 years off following the Firpo fight and took a terrible beating from Tunney in a fight Dempsey insisted be limited to 10-rounds.

Dempsey admitted he partied too much and had his way with too many women as "The Heavyweight Champion of the World." He didn’t give a rat’s ass about training or fighting anymore. His manager Doc Kearns set a terrible example for him in that regard and was one of the worst fukertons ever. The real Dempsey was the pre-champion version -- the kid who smashed Morris, Fulton, and Willard in his prime.. That version would have driven the clumsy little short-stuff Marciano into the canvas like a dinky armed railroad spike.

[HomicideHenry]

Now Dempsey versus Marciano.... that is the greatest fight in hypothetical heavyweight history.... both men virtually the same in every regard, Marciano probably hit harder and was the greater conditioned; Dempsey was the faster and more explosive of the two men.... I have to think that maybe someway, somehow, Marciano manages to overwhelm Dempsey in the middle rounds

Not so fast... You have to remember that Dempsey took years away from training and fighting when he was Heavyweight Champion.. He was idolized and made tons of money on tour... He took 2 years off from boxing following the Carpentier fight and looked worse than terrible against Gibbons.. He took 3 years off following the Firpo fight and took a terrible beating from Tunney in a fight Dempsey insisted be limited to 10-rounds.

Dempsey admitted he partied too much and had his way with too many women as "The Heavyweight Champion of the World." He didn’t give a rat’s ass about training or fighting anymore. His manager Doc Kearns set a terrible example for him in that regard and was one of the worst fukertons ever. The real Dempsey was the pre-champion version -- the kid who smashed Morris, Fulton, and Willard in his prime.. That version would have driven the clumsy little short-stuff Marciano into the canvas like a dinky armed railroad spike.

Well, you must have high praise of Willard, Fulton and Morris because I don't have either of those men in my top fifty heavyweights, whereas Marciano is a certified top ten-fifteen heavyweight of all time. Not taking anything away from Dempsey, he was a clearly better contender than he was a champion.... however.... when you are essentially fighting large, lumbering men who were not all that defensive and the majority of their wins were against small men, etc I think the myth, the legend, of "Jack The Giant Killer, The Slayer of Ogres" gets over-exaggerated. Sure they were big. Sure they were strong. Sure they hit like a ton of bricks. But they were also slow, ponderous and stiff legged.

Case in point.... shrink the men down some.... and see how Dempsey fought life and death with Gunboat Smith, and had a helluva time with the likes of Billy Miske, Willie Meehan, John Lester Johnson, etc.... when you are facing men eye to eye, who are nearly as fast as you are (or faster) then it really is a fight. Then it really becomes competitive and difficult. When opponents are large, slow, clumsy, etc. all they are are essentially enormous targets to be hit at will. Dempsey had the speed, the power, the ferocity to make men of that style and frame look mediocre.... But when you take away those perameters, Dempsey looked more and more average.

Now a guy like Marciano may be "little short stuff", but he knew that if you are small you make yourself a smaller target to hit. Contrary to popular myth he was rather difficult to hit with a jab (Ali can even attest to that). No man can withstand all that sort of punishment from the likes of Louis, Charles, Walcott, Moore, etc. unless he was actually "riding with the punches" as they came his way, etc. And in reality, there were two different Marciano's throughout his career.... from his debut till his 8th round kayo of Joe Louis, Marciano was a different kind of fighter than the one who was champion: that later version was even more difficult to hit, and was more effective on getting inside. So if we are to judge him fairly, one has to specify WHICH version of The Rock are we exactly talking about here.

[Kalan]

there were two different Marciano's throughout his career.... from his debut till his 8th round kayo of Joe Louis, Marciano was a different kind of fighter than the one who was champion: that later version was even more difficult to hit, and was more effective on getting inside. So if we are to judge him fairly, one has to specify WHICH version of The Rock are we exactly talking about here.

I don't agree... Marciano's championship opponents knocked him down twice in 7 fights... Both were guys about 40 years old and both hit Rocky a ton... Moore was a little short stuff like Rocky and still lit Rocky up and knocked him down... Floyd Patterson was much faster and more skillful than Rocky and Moore couldn't hurt Patterson at all.. He couldn't move him, or stagger him with anything... Patterson ran right over Moore to show the caliber of "Heavyweight" Marciano was facing... The washed up Ezzard Charles lost to Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson and super slow Heavyweight Nino Valdes in 1953.. Charles was very hittable at that stage of his career -- but still went the distance with Marciano in 1954. Rocky fought all washed up guys if they had ever been good.

Of all "great" Heavyweight Champions Marciano faced the worst competition.. No real Heavyweights.. No prime punchers.. Nobody weighed 200 pounds except Don Cockell who was a tub of lard at 205.. Even 200 is obviously super small for a Heavyweight -- which is why they created the Cruiserweight Division..

And when you use Miske as a guy who gave Dempsey trouble, remember this.. Dempsey is the only man who EVER stopped Billy Miske.. He was the first man in 82 fights to knock Miske off his feet.. Dempsey was a real puncher unlike Marciano.. He stretched Miske for the count.

[hhaehre]

If only Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench would have been boxers. Obviously they would have been awesome.

Only if they could swim well.

[Tomasino]

there were two different Marciano's throughout his career.... from his debut till his 8th round kayo of Joe Louis, Marciano was a different kind of fighter than the one who was champion: that later version was even more difficult to hit, and was more effective on getting inside. So if we are to judge him fairly, one has to specify WHICH version of The Rock are we exactly talking about here.

I don't agree... Marciano's championship opponents knocked him down twice in 7 fights... Both were guys about 40 years old and both hit Rocky a ton... Moore was a little short stuff like Rocky and still lit Rocky up and knocked him down... Floyd Patterson was much faster and more skillful than Rocky and Moore couldn't hurt Patterson at all.. He couldn't move him, or stagger him with anything... Patterson ran right over Moore to show the caliber of "Heavyweight" Marciano was facing... The washed up Ezzard Charles lost to Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson and super slow Heavyweight Nino Valdes in 1953.. Charles was very hittable at that stage of his career -- but still went the distance with Marciano in 1954. Rocky fought all washed up guys if they had ever been good.

Of all "great" Heavyweight Champions Marciano faced the worst competition.. No real Heavyweights.. No prime punchers.. Nobody weighed 200 pounds except Don Cockell who was a tub of lard at 205.. Even 200 is obviously super small for a Heavyweight -- which is why they created the Cruiserweight Division..

And when you use Miske as a guy who gave Dempsey trouble, remember this.. Dempsey is the only man who EVER stopped Billy Miske.. He was the first man in 82 fights to knock Miske off his feet.. Dempsey was a real puncher unlike Marciano.. He stretched Miske for the count.

Miske was dying by the time Dempsey knock him out you fool.

[HomicideHenry]

Miske was dying by the time Dempsey knock him out you fool.

He also fought Miske twice, and their first encounter went the distance.... fool

[HomicideHenry]

I don't agree... Marciano's championship opponents knocked him down twice in 7 fights... Both were guys about 40 years old and both hit Rocky a ton... Moore was a little short stuff like Rocky and still lit Rocky up and knocked him down... Floyd Patterson was much faster and more skillful than Rocky and Moore couldn't hurt Patterson at all.. He couldn't move him, or stagger him with anything... Patterson ran right over Moore to show the caliber of "Heavyweight" Marciano was facing... The washed up Ezzard Charles lost to Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson and super slow Heavyweight Nino Valdes in 1953.. Charles was very hittable at that stage of his career -- but still went the distance with Marciano in 1954. Rocky fought all washed up guys if they had ever been good.

Of all "great" Heavyweight Champions Marciano faced the worst competition.. No real Heavyweights.. No prime punchers.. Nobody weighed 200 pounds except Don Cockell who was a tub of lard at 205.. Even 200 is obviously super small for a Heavyweight -- which is why they created the Cruiserweight Division..

And when you use Miske as a guy who gave Dempsey trouble, remember this.. Dempsey is the only man who EVER stopped Billy Miske.. He was the first man in 82 fights to knock Miske off his feet.. Dempsey was a real puncher unlike Marciano.. He stretched Miske for the count.

First off, Dempsey may have been the first man to do it (the rematch) but the first time they fought it went the distance. One can argue that Dempsey only beat Biske by knockout was because Miske was also dying of Bright's Disease. He took the Dempsey fight for his kids Christmas. A really touching story, suggest you read up on it.

As for Marciano's "old" opponents.... This is something that is rather overblown.... if one actually looks at the records of Walcott and Charles and Moore, what they will see is that there was no real indication that they were on the way down, aging rapidly, etc at the time Marciano fought them. Rather the reverse. Charles, before fighting Marciano back to back, was coming off of a streak (14 wins, 4 losses, after losing the title to Walcott) which included wins over Bob Satterfield, Rex Layne, Joey Maxim, Jimmy Bivins. Only AFTER the battles with Marciano, did we see this tremendous drop in Charles.

The same can be said of Walcott, because in his return bout with Marciano he appeared ancient. It was as if Marciano, and Marciano alone, more than wracked the brains of the men he fought and they never were the same again. And this can be seen in other men who fought Marciano, as well, such as Don Cockell: who prior to Marciano was the #2 contender, British and European champion with a respectable record, and after Marciano lost two in a row (both by kayos) and retired. It was as if whatever abilities he had to absorb punishment, were lost forever, after facing Marciano. Neither was Roland LaStarza the same after his bouts with Marciano. Prior to their rematch, LaStarza had a helluva record and defeated alot of great guys. After that rematch? LaStarza won four and lost five. The Marciano-effect, he left men in ruins after fighting them.

[Tomasino]

Miske was dying by the time Dempsey knock him out you fool.

He also fought Miske twice, and their first encounter went the distance.... fool

Sorry Rufus, I wasn't calling you the fool...

I've read the first encounter between Miske and Dempsey was close.

[Kalan]

First off, Dempsey may have been the first man to do it (the rematch) but the first time they fought it went the distance. One can argue that Dempsey only beat Biske by knockout was because Miske was also dying of Bright's Disease. He took the Dempsey fight for his kids Christmas. A really touching story, suggest you read up on it.

As for Marciano's "old" opponents.... This is something that is rather overblown.... if one actually looks at the records of Walcott and Charles and Moore, what they will see is that there was no real indication that they were on the way down, aging rapidly, etc at the time Marciano fought them. Rather the reverse. Charles, before fighting Marciano back to back, was coming off of a streak (14 wins, 4 losses, after losing the title to Walcott) which included wins over Bob Satterfield, Rex Layne, Joey Maxim, Jimmy Bivins. Only AFTER the battles with Marciano, did we see this tremendous drop in Charles.

The same can be said of Walcott, because in his return bout with Marciano he appeared ancient. It was as if Marciano, and Marciano alone, more than wracked the brains of the men he fought and they never were the same again. And this can be seen in other men who fought Marciano, as well, such as Don Cockell: who prior to Marciano was the #2 contender, British and European champion with a respectable record, and after Marciano lost two in a row (both by kayos) and retired. It was as if whatever abilities he had to absorb punishment, were lost forever, after facing Marciano. Neither was Roland LaStarza the same after his bouts with Marciano. Prior to their rematch, LaStarza had a helluva record and defeated alot of great guys. After that rematch? LaStarza won four and lost five. The Marciano-effect, he left men in ruins after fighting them.

Dempsey wasn't just the FIRST man to KO or stop Miske... Dempsey was the ONLY man who EVER leveled Miske in 105 fights... And it's kind of funny that a man dying of Bright's Disease was able to rack up some of the best wins of his career over Brennan, Fulton, Meehan, and Gibbons, in going 21-1-1 in the next 3 years after getting stretched and counted out versus Dempsey -- and only losing to Tommy Gibbons on decision in those 3 years and 23 fights.. That's a pretty tough schedule for a dying man.

There was EVERY indication that Charles was losing it prior to fighting Marciano.. He easily beat Walcott in their first 2 fights to complete a 40-fight winning streak if you include the robbery "loss" to Elmer Ray who every sportswriter attending said Charles was an easy winner.. Then he seems to lose the edge he had over Walcott who was doing nothing different but getting older.. Charles wins over the notoriously chinny Satterfield, the extremely punchable Layne, the punchless Light Heavyweight, Maxim, and the ring worn Bivins don't tell the story of his deterioration.. His losses to Nino Valdes and Light Heavyweight Harold Johnson in 1953 tell the story -- because they were better fighters.

The idea that Marciano ruined fighters with his awesome power is pure hogwash.. Moore fought for many years after he fought Rocky with no ill effects.. Cockell was a chinny punching bag before he fought Marciano -- getting knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and flattened by feather hitting Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade in 4 rounds after mulitple knockdowns -- so Cockell never could absorb hard punches anyway..

LaStarza had a puffed up record and drew the color line against black contenders. He fought cherry-picks almost exclusively. LaStaza was hurt badly in losing to Dan Bucceroni in his 49th fight. Bucceroni was knocked out by Light Heavyweight Bob Murphy earlier that year after being riddled with punches for 5 rounds---so he was a pure swinger and no boxer.. Lastarza also lost to neophyte Rocky Jones---a 179-pounder whose record was 14-9-2---two fights before he was awarded an elimination fight with Rex Layne which he won by SD -- Neither the Associated Press or United Press International had him winning the Layne fight.. LaStraza was a very weak hitter who weighed 184 for Rocky.. Hardly a formidable opponent. The fact Rocky Jones beat him shows he was deteriorating.

[Ambling Alp II]

Interesting that you seem to have figured out that some fighters have puffed up records. I have seen you point out fighters with with those kind of records before and not mention that they were puffed up.
LaStarza wasn't a legend but was a pretty good fighter. He was fast and had good boxing skills.
Marciano did have great punching power. He was also tenacious. If you take a guy who hits hard and throws a lot of punches, he sin't going to be easy to beat. You like to harp on what you perceive as weaknesses of Marciano and don't mention his strengths.

[Kalan]

Marciano was a tough guy -- but other than that I don't see a lot of attributes because his weaknesses stood out like a sore thumb.

Short.. slow.. small.. light.. clumsy.. unskilled.. and never beat a prime Heavyweight who was 210 or better who was an outstanding boxer or puncher.. Because usually every World Heavyweight Champion meets a young kid who's pretty good.. Like Frazier met Foreman.. Rocky never met a good 'un.

Now Floyd Patterson was certainly a great fighter -- but his title shot was an easy win over old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore -- not much of a matchup for Patterson.., Much better if Marciano faced the 21-year-old Olympian Gold Medal winning speedster -- who had terrific punching power in both hands, a dynamite left hook, and good defensive capabilities all around... I guess Marciano much preferred the Don Cockell's of the world. What a mess that was.

[HomicideHenry]

Marciano was a tough guy -- but other than that I don't see a lot of attributes because his weaknesses stood out like a sore thumb.

Short.. slow.. small.. light.. clumsy.. unskilled.. and never beat a prime Heavyweight who was 210 or better who was an outstanding boxer or puncher.. Because usually every World Heavyweight Champion meets a young kid who's pretty good.. Like Frazier met Foreman.. Rocky never met a good 'un.

Now Floyd Patterson was certainly a great fighter -- but his title shot was an easy win over old Light Heavyweight Archie Moore -- not much of a matchup for Patterson.., Much better if Marciano faced the 21-year-old Olympian Gold Medal winning speedster -- who had terrific punching power in both hands, a dynamite left hook, and good defensive capabilities all around... I guess Marciano much preferred the Don Cockell's of the world. What a mess that was.

Every man Marciano fought as champion was the #1 contender.... except for Cockell, who was rated #2.... it's not like he fought some #15 or #10 guy.... I could understand your logic if he did that, but he didn't.... As for Patterson, he was nowhere on the heavyweight rankings radar by the time Marciano fought Archie Moore, so its difficult to criticize Marciano for not fighting Patterson. You will point out that Marciano named Patterson, though, as one of the top men to fight off for his title: but the fact of the matter is Patterson didn't become a ranked heavyweight, let alone a contender until AFTER the Marciano-Moore fight.

And I think if anyone is going to have a serious discussion about a hypothetical Patterson-Marciano match, they need to realize that Patterson was a far superior fighter after LOSING the title to Liston than he ever was as contender or champion. Odd as that sounds, he never really demonstrated how great he was or how tough and resilient he was until after losing to Liston and then defeating the likes of George Chuvalo and Jerry Quarry and others (even being robbed by Jimmy Ellis). The Patterson who was world champion may have defeated Archie in five rounds, but this is the same Patterson who also got iced by Ingemar Johansson and got dropped by Pete Rademacher (a pro debuter, albeit a gold medalist) who avoided all the top contenders: facing Brian London and Roy Harris, instead of men who were actually deserving.

As fast as Patterson was.... he was simply NOT a fighter-fighter, who traded punches..... He liked to pick his shots, dart in and out of range.... It would only take a few mere split seconds, just one mistake.... for Marciano to knock him out, and I don't believe there's anyone with a rational mind who believes Patterson had a strong enough chin to stand up to a guy like Marciano. A single solitary right hook, overhand right, uppercut.... and it would be over.... the only way Patterson wins is if he ran away the entire time, firing off jabs.... which is why (when Marciano attempted the comeback) that Cus D'Amato blocked The Rock from getting a shot at either Johansson and Patterson, because he knew that his man (Floyd) wouldn't have been able to have defeated him. Patterson could defeat Johansson, but he knew he couldn't beat Marciano: even one that had been retired for some time.

[Kalan]

Every man Marciano fought as champion was the #1 contender.... except for Cockell, who was rated #2.

this is the same Patterson who also got iced by Ingemar Johansson ,,, as fast as Patterson was.... he was simply NOT a fighter-fighter, who traded punches..... He liked to pick his shots, dart in and out of range.... It would only take a few mere split seconds, just one mistake.... for Marciano to knock him out, and I don't believe there's anyone with a rational mind who believes Patterson had a strong enough chin to stand up to a guy like Marciano. A single solitary right hook, overhand right, uppercut.... and it would be over.... the only way Patterson wins is if he ran away the entire time, firing off jabs.... which is why (when Marciano attempted the comeback) that Cus D'Amato blocked The Rock from getting a shot at either Johansson and Patterson

Some of the guys who were ranked #1 for Marciano would have been ranked 50th or worse in most eras... Especially Don Cockell who got knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and feather-soft punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade, who iced Cockell in 4 rounds -- more than twice as fast as Marciano could get him out.

Patterson was NEVER "iced" by Ingemar Johansson... He got up 7 times and they finally stopped it.. He couldn't have gone on and Ingo was having a hard time putting Floyd away.. Patterson was never dropped for the count by anyone but Liston -- you make stuff up.

Patterson had never been stopped when he flattened Moore for the Heavyweight Championship... Archie Moore couldn't put Patterson down by he easily put Marciano down... And how can you say Marciano would get Patterson out when it took so long for him to get the chinny Don Cockell out??? ... Cockell who got knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and feather-soft punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade before he ever fought Marciano.. Slade iced Cockell in 4 rounds -- more than twice as fast as Marciano could get him out... Patterson beat Jimmy Slade so easily it was ridiculous... I know you won't address my question as to why it took Marciano so long to get a chinny slow poke like Cockell out if you thought he could get Patterson out -- when Patterson easily beat guys who flattened Cockell.

[HomicideHenry]

Some of the guys who were ranked #1 for Marciano would have been ranked 50th or worse in most eras... Especially Don Cockell who got knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and feather-soft punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade, who iced Cockell in 4 rounds -- more than twice as fast as Marciano could get him out.

Patterson was NEVER "iced" by Ingemar Johansson... He got up 7 times and they finally stopped it.. He couldn't have gone on and Ingo was having a hard time putting Floyd away.. Patterson was never dropped for the count by anyone but Liston -- you make stuff up.

Patterson had never been stopped when he flattened Moore for the Heavyweight Championship... Archie Moore couldn't put Patterson down by he easily put Marciano down... And how can you say Marciano would get Patterson out when it took so long for him to get the chinny Don Cockell out??? ... Cockell who got knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and feather-soft punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade before he ever fought Marciano.. Slade iced Cockell in 4 rounds -- more than twice as fast as Marciano could get him out... Patterson beat Jimmy Slade so easily it was ridiculous... I know you won't address my question as to why it took Marciano so long to get a chinny slow poke like Cockell out if you thought he could get Patterson out -- when Patterson easily beat guys who flattened Cockell.

Your first point is absolute bullshit yeah Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, the comebacking Joe Louis, Roland LaStarza, etc wouldn't have been ranked in the top fifty.... Yeah, I think you have destroyed every iota of credibility you ever thought you had in such a bizarre, unwarranted, unsubstantiated post. Now, had you wanted to argue "The guys he fought couldn't compete with heavyweights today, they'd of been cruiserweights," then you would have a strong argument..... But instead you took the low hanging fruit, the weak argument, the nonsensical argument that the era of Marciano was so shitty that NONE of those guys could crack the top fifty in "any other era".... Have you seen the post Ali era? If Alfio Righetti, Lorenzo Zanon, Scott Frank, etc could constitute top ten contenders believe me buddy, Walcott and Charles no matter how old they were, woulda iced them on their worst day.

You keep bringing up Don Cockell.... you tend to forget that Cockell had a thyroid condition that made him balloon from middleweight to heavyweight rather rapidly.... No, he may not have been a great middleweight-light heavyweight, but he managed to take his "curse" and turn it into a benefit by being a heavyweight with the skills and speed of a lighter weight fighter.... Randy Turpin was one of the best European light heavyweights of all time, bar none, so it's NOT like you are really discrediting Cockell when you bring his name up. I suppose we will just have to "agree to disagree" on Mr. Cockell, especially when you consider Cockell who you put down so horribly defeated the likes of Matthews (three times), LaStarza, Farr, Beshore, Lloyd Marshall (truly one of the all time underrated fighters regardless of weight class), Johnny Williams (multiple times), etc. He wasn't a sitting duck as you make him out to be. Hell, Randall Tex Cobb was once knocked out by Dee Collier who had 7 wins and 4 losses. Shit happens from time to time, but would I judge Cobb on that fight? Hell no. It seems you like to cherry pick fights, rather than look at the big picture. Cockell was no bum.

I don't know what you would want to call that ass whipping by Johansson.... for me, his ass got iced.... and he nearly got iced (again) in the rematch, and nearly got iced (again) in the rubber match.... Any man who only throws right hands, who has you bouncing up and down all night long, and across the ring at will.... is icing your ass, period.... and as we all know, Johansson wasn't really anything to write home to mom about. Too many set up's, easy wins, etc. and the moment Patterson got in there with someone with a little bit of power and balls, he was sent sprawling all over the place. Not to be knocking Patterson, but let's be honest here: he wasn't a truly great fighter until AFTER losing the world's championship and rebuilding his already tainted reputation for fighting nobodies and soft touches. All one has to do is simply pull up Patterson's record and look at the names before and during and after his reign.... He only got better, and worthy of greatness, following the defeat to Liston (back to back).

You are also not considering that Archie Moore was also older, slower, and quite frankly probably a little more than worn out by the time he fought Patterson. Why do I say that? He fought Marciano in 1955, and didn't fight the rest of the year. In 1956, starting in February until the Patterson fight: he fought an incredible eleven times, one of which was a light heavyweight world title defense (Yolande Pompey). Patterson was his 12th opponent in the year 1956. So when you want to say Moore was "no match" for the "great" Floyd Patterson, let's really put it into context, okay friend? Let's compare the year of 1955 to 1956, and you will see that based on the numbers alone: Moore trained harder, more seriously, with greater focus on Marciano than he did Patterson. In 1955 Moore only fought two times before facing Marciano: Nino Valdes, which secured him the #1 contender's spot, and Bobo Olsen (light heavyweight title defense, where he iced the former Middleweight champ in three rounds). Clearly, it's obvious that the primary reason Moore lost to Patterson had to of been a complete and total dismissal of Patterson and not taking the young man seriously at all. Maybe, had he done so, we would have seen Archie as heavyweight champion.

And you bring up the infamous knockdown of Marciano in the 2nd round against Moore. For me, it's one of the most overblown, over discussed, events in boxing history. Marciano was clearly off balance, got tagged, went down, and got up at the count of "Four!", and then proceded from then on out to give Archie Moore the beating of a lifetime. Had that fight happened in "any other era" (your words), Archie Moore would have been forced to quit in no less than four or five rounds. Only because he lived in such a harsh, badass era of boxing where referees weren't so squeamish was he allowed to continue into the 9th round.

All the talk that Moore was "robbed" of knocking out Marciano, etc is nothing more than fairytales especially when you consider it was Archie who pushed that story in the first place: and if I know Archie Moore as well as I do, then you have to consider it to be the tall tales of a man who was no stranger from embellishing the truth to sell a great story to the press. This was, after all, a man who claimed he learned how to diet from an Aboriginal Australian who told him to chew the food, swallow the juices and spit out the rest. And those are the facts man.

[Kalan]

Some of the guys who were ranked #1 for Marciano would have been ranked 50th or worse in most eras... Especially Don Cockell who got knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and feather-soft punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade, who iced Cockell in 4 rounds -- more than twice as fast as Marciano could get him out.

Patterson was NEVER "iced" by Ingemar Johansson... He got up 7 times and they finally stopped it.. He couldn't have gone on and Ingo was having a hard time putting Floyd away.. Patterson was never dropped for the count by anyone but Liston -- you make stuff up.

Patterson had never been stopped when he flattened Moore for the Heavyweight Championship... Archie Moore couldn't put Patterson down by he easily put Marciano down... And how can you say Marciano would get Patterson out when it took so long for him to get the chinny Don Cockell out??? ... Cockell who got knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin and feather-soft punching Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade before he ever fought Marciano.. Slade iced Cockell in 4 rounds -- more than twice as fast as Marciano could get him out... Patterson beat Jimmy Slade so easily it was ridiculous... I know you won't address my question as to why it took Marciano so long to get a chinny slow poke like Cockell out if you thought he could get Patterson out -- when Patterson easily beat guys who flattened Cockell.

Your first point is absolute bullshit yeah Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, the comebacking Joe Louis, Roland LaStarza, etc wouldn't have been ranked in the top fifty.... Yeah, I think you have destroyed every iota of credibility you ever thought you had in such a bizarre, unwarranted, unsubstantiated post. Now, had you wanted to argue "The guys he fought couldn't compete with heavyweights today, they'd of been cruiserweights," then you would have a strong argument..... But instead you took the low hanging fruit, the weak argument, the nonsensical argument that the era of Marciano was so shitty that NONE of those guys could crack the top fifty in "any other era".... Have you seen the post Ali era? If Alfio Righetti, Lorenzo Zanon, Scott Frank, etc could constitute top ten contenders believe me buddy, Walcott and Charles no matter how old they were, woulda iced them on their worst day.

You keep bringing up Don Cockell.... you tend to forget that Cockell had a thyroid condition that made him balloon from middleweight to heavyweight rather rapidly.... No, he may not have been a great middleweight-light heavyweight, but he managed to take his "curse" and turn it into a benefit by being a heavyweight with the skills and speed of a lighter weight fighter.... Randy Turpin was one of the best European light heavyweights of all time, bar none, so it's NOT like you are really discrediting Cockell when you bring his name up. I suppose we will just have to "agree to disagree" on Mr. Cockell, especially when you consider Cockell who you put down so horribly defeated the likes of Matthews (three times), LaStarza, Farr, Beshore, Lloyd Marshall (truly one of the all time underrated fighters regardless of weight class), Johnny Williams (multiple times), etc. He wasn't a sitting duck as you make him out to be. Hell, Randall Tex Cobb was once knocked out by Dee Collier who had 7 wins and 4 losses. poo happens from time to time, but would I judge Cobb on that fight? Hell no. It seems you like to cherry pick fights, rather than look at the big picture. Cockell was no bum.

I don't know what you would want to call that ass whipping by Johansson.... for me, his ass got iced.... and he nearly got iced (again) in the rematch, and nearly got iced (again) in the rubber match.... Any man who only throws right hands, who has you bouncing up and down all night long, and across the ring at will.... is icing your ass, period.... and as we all know, Johansson wasn't really anything to write home to mom about. Too many set up's, easy wins, etc. and the moment Patterson got in there with someone with a little bit of power and balls, he was sent sprawling all over the place. Not to be knocking Patterson, but let's be honest here: he wasn't a truly great fighter until AFTER losing the world's championship and rebuilding his already tainted reputation for fighting nobodies and soft touches. All one has to do is simply pull up Patterson's record and look at the names before and during and after his reign.... He only got better, and worthy of greatness, following the defeat to Liston (back to back).

You are also not considering that Archie Moore was also older, slower, and quite frankly probably a little more than worn out by the time he fought Patterson. Why do I say that? He fought Marciano in 1955, and didn't fight the rest of the year. In 1956, starting in February until the Patterson fight: he fought an incredible eleven times, one of which was a light heavyweight world title defense (Yolande Pompey). Patterson was his 12th opponent in the year 1956. So when you want to say Moore was "no match" for the "great" Floyd Patterson, let's really put it into context, okay friend? Let's compare the year of 1955 to 1956, and you will see that based on the numbers alone: Moore trained harder, more seriously, with greater focus on Marciano than he did Patterson. In 1955 Moore only fought two times before facing Marciano: Nino Valdes, which secured him the #1 contender's spot, and Bobo Olsen (light heavyweight title defense, where he iced the former Middleweight champ in three rounds). Clearly, it's obvious that the primary reason Moore lost to Patterson had to of been a complete and total dismissal of Patterson and not taking the young man seriously at all. Maybe, had he done so, we would have seen Archie as heavyweight champion.

And you bring up the infamous knockdown of Marciano in the 2nd round against Moore. For me, it's one of the most overblown, over discussed, events in boxing history. Marciano was clearly off balance, got tagged, went down, and got up at the count of "Four!", and then proceded from then on out to give Archie Moore the beating of a lifetime. Had that fight happened in "any other era" (your words), Archie Moore would have been forced to quit in no less than four or five rounds. Only because he lived in such a harsh, badass era of boxing where referees weren't so squeamish was he allowed to continue into the 9th round.

All the talk that Moore was "robbed" of knocking out Marciano, etc is nothing more than fairytales especially when you consider it was Archie who pushed that story in the first place: and if I know Archie Moore as well as I do, then you have to consider it to be the tall tales of a man who was no stranger from embellishing the truth to sell a great story to the press. This was, after all, a man who claimed he learned how to diet from an Aboriginal Australian who told him to chew the food, swallow the juices and spit out the rest. And those are the facts man.

You're the one who's full of bullcrap.. Everyone knows that icing your opponent means knocking him cold.. Patterson iced Ingemar Johansson with one brutal left hook, He knocked the Swede colder than any of Marciano's challengers were knocked out... Patterson was the only man to EVER beat or KO'd Johansson---a man who flattened Henry Cooper, and iced Eddie Machen, and Dick Richardson in a manner such as the stumpy armed Marciano could never ice any of his challengers. The best Rocky could do was hit 39-year-old Walcott---who'd been knocked out several times before---and knock him to his knees.. Marciano followed up, hitting the kneeing Wacott with a left hook to topple him over.. hitting Walcott when he was down was a foul blow.. All of Marciano's challengers were knocked out by other people in their careers.

And don't put words in my mouth doofus... I said "Some of Marciano's challengers wouldn't rank in the top 50 in most eras -- NOT in ANY other era.. I can't conceive of Don Cockell and Roland LaSraza competing in any other era but Marciano's -- given the fact that a 14-9-7 neophyte who weighed 179 beat LaStarza 2 fights before he was awarded a Marciano fight... And Middleweight (not Light Heavyweight) Randy Turpin and feather hitting Light Heavyweight Jimmy Slade both knocked out Don Cockell. The punch-less Slade got rid of the clownish Cockell in 4 rounds -- more than twice as fast as Marciano was able to dispatch the much knocked out punching bag.

Representing Turpin as a LIght Heavyweight when everybody knows he was a Middleweight when he knocked out Cockell is just another of your silly lies you engage in trying desperately to make Marciano's super weak opposition look solid... In fact Turpin fought the vast majority of his fights at Middleweight and continued to fight as a Middleweight for the next 2 years and 8 fights after he knocked out a slow and punchless Cockell while weighing only 162.

Marciano wasn't "off balance" when Moore floored him -- another lie of yours. Archie Moore knocked Marciano to the canvas with one shot... Rocky missed badly with a flinging right and Moore countered nicely, resulting in a solid knockdown. Marciano even admitted he was concerned "because if a man can hit you like that once, you know he can do it again." ...

Moore never came close to flooring the taller, more evasive, and far better skilled Floyd Patterson -- who Marciano refused to fight... Patterson very easily beat Moore -- much easier than Rocky beat him -- to become the next Heavyweight Champion. So he was the man for Marciano to fight.

[HomicideHenry]

Well I cant argue with stupidity.... You are completely revising history altogether....

Again.... Cockell had a thyroid condition.... had he not had that condition, he'd of probably fought the majority of his career as a middleweight and light heavyweight and of gotten better at the weight.... When he fought Turpin, he was clearly not on the man's level (and obviously that's true cus he was just a contender, whereas Turpin was champ), so again your view of history is rather warped and you are (again) cherry picking what you want to believe. It's like Braddock losing in his LHW championship match: he clearly was better as a heavyweight than at 175 pounds, cus after all he had the better wins at heavyweight. People can progress in boxing you know. I will not judge a 160 pound Cockell losing to the great Turpin, to the Cockell who beat solid heavyweight contenders, thats just ridiculous.

"Rocky missed badly with a flinging right and Moore countered nicely, resulting in a solid knockdown."

^^^Your exact words. I said he was off balance when Moore landed on him, producing the knock down. VISUALIZE IT STUPID, when you "miss badly" with a looping right hand.... you're gonna be off balance.... So again, I'm right, and you are just trying to make the knockdown something more profound than what it was. As for Marciano saying what he did about the knockdown.... Gotta understand something about The Rock: there was the things he said in public, and the things he said in private among friends. He once said (of Patterson, for instance) "If I said I could beat him, you'd think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, then you know I'd be lying."

The only fighter Marciano was NEVER complimentary towards was Sonny Liston, and he made his thoughts well known publically and otherwise that he thought Liston was a bully, who could be defeated once someone stood up to him. Otherwise, Marciano acted the gentleman in public; but as we all know (as Sports Illustrated made clear years ago) that the Rock wasn't the kind, humble, gentle man who was the constant nice guy as he wanted people to believe he was. He had a dark side, he had a viscious streak, and he could be an asshole. I think, personally, he was more than complimentary towards Archie, cus quite frankly he made the most money of his entire career because of Archie.

And again, you do not wish to acknowledge that Moore fought ELEVEN TIMES in 1956 before facing Patterson, and that he simply overlooked Floyd and didn't really train or take him seriously---- like he did for Marciano. Nor do you want to acknowledge that he was older, slower than when he fought Marciano. Nor do you want to acknowledge that for the first few rounds Moore was more than competitive with Floyd. Floyd's exceptional handspeed, conditioning, youth, etc. overcame Moore's experience and power. Simple as that. It had little to do with Floyd being so superior over Moore. It was everything else. Imagine the Archie Moore who fought the likes of Ezzard Charles and others, fighting Patterson.... I don't think too many people would favor Patterson over Moore in his absolute prime years.... anyone who does, is either a fool or a mad genius.

As for your persistent lie that Marciano didn't want no part of Floyd..... you must obviously NOT be aware that Marciano (in fact) pitched the idea of a bout between him and Floyd to be televised on the Gilette Cavalcade of Sports, just prior to Marciano officially retiring. It was to be an exhibition contest (as Floyd had yet to be ranked as a top ten heavyweight at the time) and the networks turned it down, as they weren't interested in showcasing a bout that wasn't for the title. Marciano, in no way shape or form was ducking Patterson---- especially when you consider when Floyd was battling Johansson, Marciano attempted a comeback and expressed interest in facing either Floyd or Ingo (though he really wanted Johansson cus that meant more money, cus his style was more exciting than Floyd's) but Cus D'Amato blocked him from doing so. Now, if the older and slower Marciano wasn't afraid to battle either man for the right price---- why would he of been afraid of facing Patterson when he actually held the title, when Floyd was unranked?

[Kalan]

Well I cant argue with stupidity.... You are completely revising history altogether....

Again.... Cockell had a thyroid condition.... had he not had that condition, he'd of probably fought the majority of his career as a middleweight and light heavyweight and of gotten better at the weight.... When he fought Turpin, he was clearly not on the man's level (and obviously that's true cus he was just a contender, whereas Turpin was champ), so again your view of history is rather warped and you are (again) cherry picking what you want to believe. It's like Braddock losing in his LHW championship match: he clearly was better as a heavyweight than at 175 pounds, cus after all he had the better wins at heavyweight. People can progress in boxing you know. I will not judge a 160 pound Cockell losing to the great Turpin, to the Cockell who beat solid heavyweight contenders, thats just ridiculous.

"Rocky missed badly with a flinging right and Moore countered nicely, resulting in a solid knockdown."

^^^Your exact words. I said he was off balance when Moore landed on him, producing the knock down. VISUALIZE IT STUPID, when you "miss badly" with a looping right hand.... you're gonna be off balance.... So again, I'm right, and you are just trying to make the knockdown something more profound than what it was. As for Marciano saying what he did about the knockdown.... Gotta understand something about The Rock: there was the things he said in public, and the things he said in private among friends. He once said (of Patterson, for instance) "If I said I could beat him, you'd think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, then you know I'd be lying."

The only fighter Marciano was NEVER complimentary towards was Sonny Liston, and he made his thoughts well known publically and otherwise that he thought Liston was a bully, who could be defeated once someone stood up to him. Otherwise, Marciano acted the gentleman in public; but as we all know (as Sports Illustrated made clear years ago) that the Rock wasn't the kind, humble, gentle man who was the constant nice guy as he wanted people to believe he was. He had a dark side, he had a viscious streak, and he could be an asshole. I think, personally, he was more than complimentary towards Archie, cus quite frankly he made the most money of his entire career because of Archie.

And again, you do not wish to acknowledge that Moore fought ELEVEN TIMES in 1956 before facing Patterson, and that he simply overlooked Floyd and didn't really train or take him seriously---- like he did for Marciano. Nor do you want to acknowledge that he was older, slower than when he fought Marciano. Nor do you want to acknowledge that for the first few rounds Moore was more than competitive with Floyd. Floyd's exceptional handspeed, conditioning, youth, etc. overcame Moore's experience and power. Simple as that. It had little to do with Floyd being so superior over Moore. It was everything else. Imagine the Archie Moore who fought the likes of Ezzard Charles and others, fighting Patterson.... I don't think too many people would favor Patterson over Moore in his absolute prime years.... anyone who does, is either a fool or a mad genius.

As for your persistent lie that Marciano didn't want no part of Floyd..... you must obviously NOT be aware that Marciano (in fact) pitched the idea of a bout between him and Floyd to be televised on the Gilette Cavalcade of Sports, just prior to Marciano officially retiring. It was to be an exhibition contest (as Floyd had yet to be ranked as a top ten heavyweight at the time) and the networks turned it down, as they weren't interested in showcasing a bout that wasn't for the title. Marciano, in no way shape or form was ducking Patterson---- especially when you consider when Floyd was battling Johansson, Marciano attempted a comeback and expressed interest in facing either Floyd or Ingo (though he really wanted Johansson cus that meant more money, cus his style was more exciting than Floyd's) but Cus D'Amato blocked him from doing so. Now, if the older and slower Marciano wasn't afraid to battle either man for the right price---- why would he of been afraid of facing Patterson when he actually held the title, when Floyd was unranked?

You're really dense between the ears... I said Marciano missed a flinging right. He didn't throw a "looping" which is another lie from you... and he didn't put his body behind it.. He flung his fist in an arm punch so he was still balanced if he missed...which he did and he was.. Moore countered with an arm punch and knocked him down...

Braddock was not a better Heavyweight than Light Heavyweight... There's a lot more money at Heavyweight and he was a very tough man...so he campaigned at Heavyweight.. But he was undersized, but he lucked out by drawing a very unskilled and under-trained Baer.. He was a massive underdog anyway and few expected him to win.. He lost his first defense after sitting on the title for over 2 years without a single fight.

Marciano never attempted a comeback---that's another lie of yours---and Cus D'Amato was the biggest advocate in the world for a Patterson-Marciano fight.. He howled for a Marciano fight after Rocky looked so bad against Moore... Marciano didn't announce his retirement for some time after he fought Moore, but in NO WAY was he interested in taking on the speedy Patterson---who was indeed the top contender for Rocky's title and the NEXT man to fight for it and capture it....

Marciano told interviewers he wasn't interested in coming back in general---but he had some interest in fighting Johansson when he won the title because he didn't like the Swede.. He said he thought Ingo was arrogant.. There is no evidence of this because Marciano never spoke to the press about it... He never talked about fighting Patterson in any exhibition.. The thought of a fat old Marciano facing the murderous young"Hammer of Thor" INGO'S BINGO who threw the "Toonder" right-hander was a joke. Particularly when you think of how long it took for Marciano to get rid of a Light Heavyweight like Archie Moore, and even getting knocked to the canvas.. Why would he want to fight somebody up to 25 pounds heavier than Moore who could hit like a falling safe?? Rocky did not want ANY of that.. D'Amato really wanted Marciano for Patterson and was lobbying hard for the fight when Marciano upped and retired.. He retired so he could flagrantly duck Patterson, who was way too fast and skilled for him.. Patterson was a top ranking Heavyweight and indeed he was easily the best Heavyweight in the world bar none -- so more lies from you.

[HomicideHenry]

Tell that to Lou Duva who said countless times that the deal was real.... and that D'Amato blocked it.

Anyways, you live in your own reality.... and I am done with the conversation. Bye Felicia.

[Kalan]

Duva is dead. And Lou had countless stories that were utter bullcrap.. Just like Angie Dundee who said he tore Ali glove after Cooper knocked him dizzy and bought Ali extra minutes while the glove was changed.. If Marciano wanted to do a comeback he would announce it -- and his target opponent.

That's what Ali did when he wanted to fight Holmes -- Louis did when he wanted a Charles fight -- and Foreman did when he wanted to stage a comeback... I hope you're getting all of this Petunia because your makeup is beginning to cake from all the powder you're splotching on your face. And good seeing the last of you

[APerno]

I loosely followed your debate, and don't have a particular opinion, but I would like to share one thought. A fighter, (Marciano) who has close to fifty fights, is at the end of his championship run, who sees an up-and-coming kid, (Patterson) who is young, strong, and fast, and says, "OK that's enough for me, I'm done," as Marciano did, shouldn't be accused of ducking. Realistically assessing your situation (your limitations,) and retiring, and not coming back, is a career decision, not ducking.

[Kalan]

Except for the fact that Marciano turned 32 less than three weeks before his last fight.. Pretty damned young for an unbeaten fighter to retire.. He only defended the title 6 times against very easy opponents who were aging or extremely light hitters... Generally if you're career had only been 8 years long anyway you would continue for a few more fights.. Rocky didn't turn pro until he was well into his 20's.

[APerno]

Except for the fact that Marciano turned 32 less than three weeks before his last fight.. Pretty damned young for an unbeaten fighter to retire.. He only defended the title 6 times against very easy opponents who were aging or extremely light hitters... Generally if you're career had only been 8 years long anyway you would continue for a few more fights.. Rocky didn't turn pro until he was well into his 20's.

All good arguments for him having taken the fight, yes; bu when he quit did did not come back, he actually quit. - I guess what I am arguing, that when a fighter knows he's finished and walks away for good, that is not ducking, that's retirement - Can I argue the Tunney was ducking Skarkey - or is that different because we both think/know Tunney would beaten Sharkey therefore it is not ducking? - but how do we know Tunney wasn't scared of Sharkey (of course he wasn't), but that is based only on our opinion - in both cases it comes down to our assessment; we think Patterson could beat Marciano therefore Marciano was ducking; we think Tunney would have beaten Sharkey therefore Tunney wasn't ducking - you can see that, that duplicity your imposing isn't fair to Marciano, it is all based on what we believe WOULD have happened - take our opinion out of the mix and either both men are ducking or both are retiring - if a fighter does not go looking for an easier fight, then he is not ducking, he's retiring - he deserves that respect - but as always we often have to agree to disagree.