FIRPO-BONAVENA- who was the better Argentine Heavyweight?

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 16 Mar 2006, 23:07

Martin and I have had this debate briefly and I wanted to air this one out. Argentina has always revered Firpo as being greater than Bonavena, which I've never understood. A quick look at their respective accomplishments reveals that Firpo's pale in comparison to Bonavena.

The highlights of Firpo's resume are as follows:

A win over a washed-up Bill Brennan(the second to last fight of Bill's career)

A win over the shell of Jess Willard.

A win and a loss to Charlie Weinert.

That's pretty much it. Other than that he beat a bunch of nobodies. He was KO'd in 2 by Dempsey and lost by a wide margin to Harry Wills.

Now look at Bonavena:

Beat George Chuvalo(top 10 contender)

Beat Leotis Martin(top 10 contender)

Beat Karl Mildenberger(top 10 contender)

Won and lost to Zora Folley(top 10 contender)

Beat Al "Blue" Lewis(not sure what he was ranked, but definitely top 15)

Beat both Gregorio Peralta and Luis Pires(South America's finest)

Went 25 rounds with Joe Frazier and gave him his toughest bouts.

Gave Muhammad Ali his toughest fight up to that time, hurting him badly and marking him. Ali himself called Ringo the toughest.

Floored Floyd Patterson and fought him on equal terms with a hurt hand. The decision was still close.

Gave hell to heavyweight titlist Jimmy Ellis and top contender Ron Lyle in losing decisions.

What do you folks think? Does Firpo deserve to be considered the better of(or even equal of) Oscar Bonavena?

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 16 Mar 2006, 23:20

I gotta go with Oscar. I think maybe Firpo became somewhat of a legend in his loss to Dempsey due to the sensational nature of that fight.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 16 Mar 2006, 23:54

Brennan was not washed up . . .his career was cut short due to a car accident (or something like that)

Despite that,

Bonavena has the better resume and was the better boxer. The only thing Firpo had on Oscar was size and a bigger punch.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 17 Mar 2006, 01:22

Floored Floyd Patterson and fought him on equal terms with a hurt hand. The decision was still close.

patterson was 37 and far past his prime and still boxed ringo's ears off

i think firpo is underatedin skill department, he looked good vs willard. however, i think oscar bonavena was clearly the better heavyweight

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 17 Mar 2006, 01:48

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Floored Floyd Patterson and fought him on equal terms with a hurt hand. The decision was still close.

patterson was 37 and far past his prime and still boxed ringo's ears off

i think firpo is underatedin skill department, he looked good vs willard. however, i think oscar bonavena was clearly the better heavyweight

Liberace would have looked good vs Willard - He was shite. Big, strong and brave but couldn't fight at all.

I know you turn of the century fantasists are gonna tell me he was a superb fighter who would be undisputed champ if he was around today. Christ, some people are even trying to represent Primo Carnera as being an overlooked gem (even though the writers at the time thought he was a big pile of crap) so I know what to expect...

Have a few jars of guiness before you call me though...

barry · Post by **barry** » 17 Mar 2006, 02:13

>>>I know you turn of the century fantasists are gonna tell me he was a superb fighter who would be undisputed champ if he was around today.<<<

Nah...it takes boxing specialists and stylists like Valuev and Ruiz to make it in today's heavyweight boxing, or fighters who will quit at the first sign of any adversity, like a certain newly retired fighter. Today's fighters are just so, so superior, especially considering that they get hurt more during training than even actual fights...now that takes real talent to continuously get injured during practice!

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 17 Mar 2006, 04:51

dempseyfire wrote:Brennan was not washed up . . .his career was cut short due to a car accident (or something like that)

Despite that,

Bonavena has the better resume and was the better boxer. The only thing Firpo had on Oscar was size and a bigger punch.

Actually, he was murdered by gangsters outside of the bar he owned.

He was in his 10th year as a pro and had had over 100 fights. In between getting beaten by Dempsey and losing to Firpo he fought a bunch of nondescript opponents. In fact he was coming off a loss to someone named Floyd Johnson(who's only claim to fame at the time was that he beat Brennan) before the Firpo bout and in his next bout was KO'd by Billy Miske. I would say he was past his prime, a fact that would have made itself even more evident had he lived and had a few more bouts.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 17 Mar 2006, 04:53

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Floored Floyd Patterson and fought him on equal terms with a hurt hand. The decision was still close.

patterson was 37 and far past his prime and still boxed ringo's ears off

i think firpo is underatedin skill department, he looked good vs willard. however, i think oscar bonavena was clearly the better heavyweight

I have the fight. I don't see anyone getting his ears boxed off. Looked close to me.

Patterson was 37 but I think a one-armed Ringo giving him all he wanted(and flooring him) says something about Oscar. Then again, as with Cerdan/LaMotta, you don't seem to have much empathy for guys who fight with only one usable arm*s*

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 18 Mar 2006, 03:19

your just making exuses for RINGO. i have seen the fight, a clear victory for patterson. imagine what a prime patterson would do to ringo.

- lamottas was too physical and strong for cerdan(which led to cerdans injury), lamotta would beat cerdan in the rematch.

its easy to survive a fight with 1 arm for 10 rounds if u fight in survival mode, have a good chin, and are facing a weak puncher.

of course nero forgets that before the injury happened, cerdan was nearly knocked down by lamotta.

of course accoring to you, "bonavena had a hurt hand" counts as an exuse for oscar but "lamotta had a hurt hand" vs cerdan does not count. you have an agenda against lamotta. lamotta had a hurt left hand the whole cerdan fight just like bonavena did.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 18 Mar 2006, 16:24

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:your just making exuses for RINGO. i have seen the fight, a clear victory for patterson. imagine what a prime patterson would do to ringo.

- lamottas was too physical and strong for cerdan(which led to cerdans injury), lamotta would beat cerdan in the rematch.

its easy to survive a fight with 1 arm for 10 rounds if u fight in survival mode, have a good chin, and are facing a weak puncher.

of course nero forgets that before the injury happened, cerdan was nearly knocked down by lamotta.

of course accoring to you, "bonavena had a hurt hand" counts as an exuse for oscar but "lamotta had a hurt hand" vs cerdan does not count. you have an agenda against lamotta. lamotta had a hurt left hand the whole cerdan fight just like bonavena did.

1. Lamotta was too strong and physical for Cerdan. Interesting. Yet a welterweight like Fritzie Zivic fought him on even terms(beat him once and even dissed his punching power). How can you say LaMotta was too strong and not be able to say the same about Marciano vs. Sonny Liston(a CLEAR case of "too strong and physical)?

2. Cerdan was not nearly knocked-out in the first round by feather-fisted Jake(the very thought of Jake KOing ANY good fighter in the first round is not only laughable, but unprecidented). Watch the films and stop reading the newspaper reports from your wishful-thinking, New York Italian paisanos.

3. LaMotta was using his supposed "hurt hand" full strength the entire fight, while Cerdan is using one. Again, watch the film. Or are you allergic to what they might reveal?

I have no agenda against LaMotta. I have an agenda against people who think they are entitled to their own facts and try and write their own history based on their love of a certain fighter or fighters(in your case, Marciano and LaMotta). You seem like a good guy overall, but you are egregiously guilty of this practice.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 21 Mar 2006, 10:17

Hello, Nero3000! This is a very good debate, too!

Luis Firpo is in the Argentinian boxing history (and for South America and Latinamerica) an unquestionable symbol, as is another symbol to be an heavyweight, and to be the first Iberoamerican who was between the best heavyes of his time in the world, make him a myth. The culmination of him was to gain the right of a World Title fight, and against Jack Dempsey! And what happened in this superintense fight: the great Jack out of the ring (wasn't it another "long count"?); this feat put Firpo as the greatest sportsman of this parts of the world. In the opinion on Firpo is very important the emotional factor (as in all cases, but more than anothers in this). And as he don't win the bout, it was most powerful for the people imagination and feeling: "What would happened if Firpo win?"

Until his fight against Dempsey, the career of Firpo was excellent. And he knocked out a former World Champion, Jess Willard (who win the title over Jack Johnson!)

After Firpo, they were another very good Argentinian heavyweights (it's easy to see their records) like Victorio Campolo, Alberto Lovell, César Brión, Alejandro Lavorante and Alex Miteff, all they in each moment between the hight five rated of the world. But after this boys, appeared two better and greatest new heavyweights, in the same flat than Firpo: Gregorio (Goyo) Peralta and Oscar (Ringo) Bonavena. The question of who is the best Heavyweight of Argentina isn't only between Firpo and Bonavena: is between Firpo, Bonavena and Peralta.

The record of Bonavena is more recently than the campaign of Firpo, then we can remember best and easily the rivals of Ringo, but he wasn't better than Firpo. And Goyo Peralta? He was compared with Billy Conn and Max Schmeling. And Goyo was so far of the 200 lbs. and more weight of Firpo and Bonavena; as you can see, Goyo fought for the World Light Heavyweight Title; too, he was ready for to fight against Jimmy Ellis for the World Heavyweight Title in Buenos Aires but this bout was boycotted by anothers Argentinian boxing promoters. George Foreman affirmed his most difficult adversary was Goyo Peralta. When Bonavena and Peralta fought Ringo win the first time, and in the second Peralta was better, but as the fight wasn't in Argentina the judges don't to provoke an uproar and failed it as a draw.

It isn't determining, but Bonavena never win over a World Champion, yet Firpo and Peralta did it (Jess Willard, Willie Pastano).

I thinks Luis Firpo, Oscar Bonavena and Goyo Peralta were the greatest Argentinian Heavyweights until today, and, provisionally, I rated they in that order (1-Firpo, 2-Bonavena, 3-Peralta) but I'm not sure who was the best of the trio

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 21 Mar 2006, 13:59

martin sosa cameron. i was wondering if you could share solid info about the career of cesar brion, a contender of the 1950s and stablemate of rocky marciano.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 23 Mar 2006, 18:47

Thanks you! César Brión was very good as fighter and as boy. You can see his record in

http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=10354

Brión fought against Ezzard Charles (once) and Joe Louis (twice), losing all this on points; many says he don't lost his fights with the Brown Bomber. Also, Brión knocked out Tami Mauriello. He wasn't Argentinian or South American Champion, but he was one of the best South American heavyweights.

Actually, he lives in Córdoba, Argentina, and he likes good, and have only little troubles of memory, but it may be because he is 80 years old