Was Robinson greater at Welterweight or Middleweight?

[Syntax Error]

Robinson was a better Welterweight Fighter than a Middleweight Fighter.

However SRR achieved most of his fame and fortune for his exploits at Middleweight... How many of his Welterweight opponents can most fans name??? Everybody's heard of Carmen Basilio---but SRR was a Middleweight when he went 1-1 with Basilio... His fight with Henry Armstrong was terrible and widely panned... Few ever talk about his Kid Gavilan fight.

People talk about the Randy Turpin fights... The Gene Fullmer fights... The Joey Maxim Fight... The LaMotta fight for the Middleweight Title... The Graziano fight.. The Bobo Olson fights... The Basilio fights... and his unfortunate upset loss to Ralph "Tiger" Jones.

Can't argue with this.

[Kalan]

Good point...dont' really disagree.....I just think the MW activity got more press. Not that they were a better indicator at all.

Not only did he get more press at Middleweight and fought fights that drew bigger crowds and publicity exposure, but he made a Hell of a lot more money.

[elmersalsa]

Also, there are more videotapes of his fights at middleweight than at welterweight. Most of his famous fights were at middleweight because the films exist. Ironically, his fight films at welterweight are hard to find or do not exist at all. But, he was a clearly better welterweight than middleweight. But, at middleweight, he won more titles and made much more money.

[evrenb]

Also, there are more videotapes of his fights at middleweight than at welterweight. Most of his famous fights were at middleweight because the films exist. Ironically, his fight films at welterweight are hard to find or do not exist at all. But, he was a clearly better welterweight than middleweight. But, at middleweight, he won more titles and made much more money.

That is true...however there is quite a lot of footage of his welterweight fights....or pre 1952 fights when he was at his best.

[Kalan]

He ended up in poverty fighting for chump change in tank towns. He fought 14 times in 1965 and winning 8, in his final year as a boxer.

[Ambling Alp II]

Thanks for this meaningless information that you just looked up.

[Kalan]

It's not meaningless... How many World Middleweight Champions in the last 40 years finished their careers in poverty and mentally diminished???

"In his autobiography, Robinson states that by 1965 (his last year as a boxer) he was broke. Robinson was honored with a Sugar Ray Robinson Night on December 10, 1965 in New York's Madison Square Garden. During the ceremony, he was honored with a massive trophy. However, there was not a piece of furniture in his small Manhattan apartment with legs strong enough to support it."

[Kalan]

You finally got something right... There's stupid which is you... and there's Kalan which is me

Joe Louis was also broke when he finished his career... He got involved with pro wrestling to pay the bills... Robinson tried acting... Boxer who aren't famous celebrities don't necessarily have those options.

Boxing should have a pension system like pro football.. Maybe something like 10% of each gate would go towards it and you build a certain amount of equity with each match.. But that'll be a long time in coming.

[Kalan]

You calling me stupid is like Donald Trump calling Pia Wurtzbach fat. He's a tub of lard and she's perfectly fit.

Famous boxers who end their careers in bad mental, physical, emotional, and financial condition are red flags for participation in the sport. If Boxing weren't so focused on money and more on the life circumstances and overall health of it's athletes -- careers endings like that would seldom happen. More careers would end like the Tunney's, Klitschko's, Lewis's, Foreman's, and Marquez's.

[BoxBuzz]

Nobody really looks out for the boxer....or the tennis player.....or the golfer.....these are not "team sports"
They are individuals, challenging themselves for fame and fortune.


So.....they all have to put on their big boy pants.

[Kalan]

The ATP and and especially the PGA go out of their way to treat their professional athletes well... They both provide pension benefits for professional players and the top contributors to the pension funds are the richest players. In recent years they've fattened their pension funds very substantially.

You're making excuses for Boxing. It's like Cain asking about Abel, "Am I my brother's keeper?" ... I guess Abel should've pulled his big boy pants on.

[BoxBuzz]

Of course not, however you need to send me a check, I could use a little spending cash.

Waiting for your assured positive response from a fellow citizen who could use an additional pazooza or two.




Liberals...their combined contributions to charities have been historically rather low. I suppose they are expecting the government to do that for us/them. Why be personally responsible for your own generosity?

our taxes can be the conduit to salve their guilty conscience.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

The best
Welterweight
Jr Middleweight
Middleweight ever................ not sure about what weight because he was really a Jr Middleweight when there was no Jr Middleweight TBE

[Kalan]

You love to spout right wing propaganda BuzzBox... You probably listen to Fox News and support Donald Trump -- who used his foundation for his own piggy bank and didn't contribute a penny to it... The biggest supporters of charitable causes have been Warren Buffett and Bill and Malinda Gates... Also the Clinton Global Initiative and other so-called liberal organizations.

I'm a conservative myself... I believe in cutting government spending as much as possible and Republicans are liberal spenders who run up tax payer debt unbelievably year by year, every time they've taken over the federal government... Watch them do it again... Democrats like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama cut massive annual deficits they inherited from Republicans, steadily reducing them year by year towards a balanced budget -- while still giving in-need Americans a much needed and deserved safety net...

Five things that explodes crime and deficit spending are the lack of a safety net... a lack of jobs and economic opportunity... a lack of government regulation of financial institutions... handing out no-bid government contracts to the biggest campaign funders... and allowing special interests and industries (particularly the defense industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and the investment banking industry) to write their own legislation and install their own regulators…

Those are things that ushered in the Great Depression under Herbert Hoover and the Great Recession under Dubya Bush – caused 3 recessions under Ronald Reagan and Bush Senior -- and ushered in Bill Clinton with the slogan “It’s the ECONOMY you stupid FK!!!”

[Crease]

I think that this is a very difficult one to answer.

At Welterweight, SRR was the perfect specimen of a boxer and I don't that any other Welter from throughout history could defeat him.
Had he stayed at Welter I don't believe that he would have lost.

But undoubtedly his biggest achievements and his toughest fights were at Middleweight. He sid lose fights at Middle but he revenged many of them over the same opponents.

I just suppose that it depends on how you look at it.

[BoxBuzz]

You love to spout right wing propaganda BuzzBox... You probably listen to Fox News and support Donald Trump -- who used his foundation for his own piggy bank and didn't contribute a penny to it... The biggest supporters of charitable causes have been Warren Buffett and Bill and Malinda Gates... Also the Clinton Global Initiative and other so-called liberal organizations.

I'm a conservative myself... I believe in cutting government spending as much as possible and Republicans are liberal spenders who run up tax payer debt unbelievably year by year, every time they've taken over the federal government... Watch them do it again... Democrats like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama cut massive annual deficits they inherited from Republicans, steadily reducing them year by year towards a balanced budget -- while still giving in-need Americans a much needed and deserved safety net...

Five things that explodes crime and deficit spending are the lack of a safety net... a lack of jobs and economic opportunity... a lack of government regulation of financial institutions... handing out no-bid government contracts to the biggest campaign funders... and allowing special interests and industries (particularly the defense industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and the investment banking industry) to write their own legislation and install their own regulators…

Those are things that ushered in the Great Depression under Herbert Hoover and the Great Recession under Dubya Bush – caused 3 recessions under Ronald Reagan and Bush Senior -- and ushered in Bill Clinton with the slogan “It’s the ECONOMY you stupid FK!!!”

Yes...yes...you sound quite conservative.

And you have half a brain.

But unlike kidneys, (with which you can do just fine and thrive nicely with only 50%)....the brain pretty much requires full attendance.

[Kalan]

I have half a brain and also have the other half... You don't have have a brain... either half... That's why you are never able to argue points, but just go traipsing off into the moonbeams in your own Tumpist world.

[evrenb]

I think that this is a very difficult one to answer.

At Welterweight, SRR was the perfect specimen of a boxer and I don't that any other Welter from throughout history could defeat him.
Had he stayed at Welter I don't believe that he would have lost.

But undoubtedly his biggest achievements and his toughest fights were at Middleweight. He sid lose fights at Middle but he revenged many of them over the same opponents.

I just suppose that it depends on how you look at it.

A bit like Ali : 1960s version against 1970s version

[Ambling Alp II]

In a way. his competition seems better after he won the middleweight title; however I think people need to look at some of the great competition he beat before than. (LaMotta four times, Gavilan twice, alone is a big deal.)

I think it's gets tricky when you consider his bouts vs LaMotta. He twice beat LaMotta when he was still within the welterweight limit. Does that count as a win as a welterweight or as a middleweight?

Some people seem to think he started as a middleweight in 1951 when he won the middleweight title.
He also beat LaMotta two more times before he was the middleweight champion but when he weighed well over the welterweight limit. Those fights have to count as middleweight wins.

If you actually just focus on what he did at middleweight until he retired after beating Turpin, his resume at middleweight is as good anyone. However, most of the focus is on his fights after that when he well past his best.

[Kalan]

Some people seem to think he started as a middleweight in 1951 when he won the middleweight title.
He also beat LaMotta two more times before he was the middleweight champion but when he weighed well over the welterweight limit. Those fights have to count as middleweight wins.

If you actually just focus on what he did at middleweight until he retired after beating Turpin, his resume at middleweight is as good anyone. However, most of the focus is on his fights after that when he well past his best.

LaMotta was a super weak hitter with a very low KO ratio who fought a lot of creampuffs. He was a stubby little guy with short arms who led with his face. He was a shorter, slower, weaker punching, and easier to hit, and a less fluid version of Joe Calzaghe, who also gave you his head to swing at.

Danny Nardico win over LaMotta was sandwiched in between 2 losses. Coming off a loss Nardico beat the crap out of the 31-year-old favorite LaMotta. The fight is available on YouTube. LaMotta gets hammered with every punch there is, knocked down, and finally quits in his corner after 7 rounds. A pretty sad effort I have to say. If LaMotta were much taller, rangier, faster, more skilled, and a bigger puncher -- he would have been more like Danny Jacobs, who gave Gennady Golovkin a tough run of it on Saturday.

Robinson had "greater" fame, big fights, and exposure as a Middleweight. But he wasn't a greater fighter because he wasn't as effective a boxer.

His record in Middleweight Title Defenses was a mediocre 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Golovkin's is 18-0 with 17 KO wins... Hagler's was 12-1-1 with 11 KO wins... Monzon was 14-0 with 9 KO wins...all having outstanding records as Middleweight champs versus Robinson's weak record... Hagler would have had few problems reaching Robinson because SRR was as hittable as Hitman Hearns... Likewise, guys like Jones, Toney, Golovkin, Hopkins, and McCallum would have found Robinson willing to trade punches -- not a big hitter for a Middleweight -- and a wide open target.. Most of them were bigger punchers than anyone SRR faced.

[Ambling Alp II]

First, Jake LaMotta was a great fighter. LaMotta some creampuffs because he fought a lot. He also fought a lot of tough fighters. Look at his whole career. Robinson beat him several times.

Win/loss records in boxing are often deceptive. People that know boxing know this and are careful to point to a statistic.

[Cojimar 1946]

Many people would not view LaMotta as great because he was inconsistent. It depends how one defines greatness I guess. He lacked the consistency of a Hagler, Monzon, Roy Jones, etc.

[davie]

If LaMotta were much taller, rangier, faster, more skilled, and a bigger puncher -- he would have been more like Danny Jacobs, who gave Gennady Golovkin a tough run of it on Saturday.

If LaMotta was completely different and had lot's of different attribute, he'd have been like a fighter who is in no way comparable to him?

I agree

[Ambling Alp II]

Who are these "Many" people"? I sure hope you aren't one of them.

The guy was fighting more than once a month his first 5 years. He fought Robinson three times in four months. He fought Zivic four times in 7 months. This was a different era. In his day, not every prospect automatically started out 20-0 against stooges. Yes he is going to have the occasional loss.

He was a relentless pressure fighter with a great chin.
This was a guy who beat Robinson, and was in great fights with him in defeat. He also bet Marcel Cerdan. Also beat Holman Williams.
Also beat beat a ton of very good fighters , such as Robert Villemain, Bert Lytell, Jose Basora, Tony Janiro, Tiberio Mitri, Laurent Dauuthuille, Bob Satterfield etc. They may have been have been all but forgotton, but that doesn't mean that they weren't good; they were.
Yes, LaMotta was great.

[Kalan]

If LaMotta were much taller, rangier, faster, more skilled, and a bigger puncher -- he would have been more like Danny Jacobs, who gave Gennady Golovkin a tough run of it on Saturday.

If LaMotta was completely different and had lot's of different attribute, he'd have been like a fighter who is in no way comparable to him?

I agree

Of course you do... Being short, stumpy, slow, unskilled, and a light hitter is nothing to write home about. That's not different attributes.. It's a lack of same.