fastest hands in heavyweight history?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd pick vitali to beat many more accomplished fighters, Morrison is one of them. Sadly, for you, all time lists are not compiled by your silly predections that lean heavily on far more first round knockouts that have ever occured. Vitali was not a puncher. That's a fact. He'd beat hipp to a bloody tko, but never come close to flooring him.the Morrison fight would likely go the distance.

[Kalan]

you seem to imagine that when a fighter you favor has an injury...it's just happenstance...coulda happened to anybody. As if perhaps Byrd and Lewis weren't in the ring with him, and he simply tripped on his own shoes. Which admittedly could have happened...but the likelihood is slim. When a boxer is injured....you rarely need to look too much further than his opponent as the chief cause. You on the other hand will search the world over for some sort of conspiratorial aspect...

BuzzBox you have to expand your thinking a ton... Did Vitali trip on his shoes??? No he didn't... Was he easily out-pointing Byrd all all the way, even with a badly separated rotator cuff assembly that eventually severed in 2 and halted the fight??? Yes he was... Was there any conspiracy going on??? No there wasn't... Is a rotator cuff tear a commonplace injury??? Yes it is... When during that fight did Byrd cause that injury??? Many injuries ARE happenstance... Nobody plans them to happen or expects them to happen... Byrd's never separated anyone else's rotator cuff with all his skills... None of his slower and more inept opponents suffered that injury... So he did this deliberately to Vitali??? ... That's totally airhead of you to say that.

Now let's look at other injuries in fights... Ali's broken jaw... That was caused by 10/1 underdog Norton... Holmes torn biceps.. That was NOT caused by Norton.. Jesse Lejia punctured ear drum... That was caused by Kostya Tszyu... Yuri Foreman's torn ACL... That was NOT caused by Cotto... Liston's torn biceps... That was not caused by Ali... Joe Bugner's broken jaw... That was caused by Larry Middleton... Sonny Liston's broken jaw... That was caused by Marty Marshall... Harold Johnson's injury to an intervertebral disc in his back... That was NOT caused by Joe Walcott

It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to realize that some injuries were inflicted by the opponent and some weren't... and which ones they are:

Broken jaws, broken ribs, cut eyes---which can happen from foul blows, clean blows, or head butting---pounded brain, and closed eyes are inflicted.

And some injuries AREN'T caused by the opponent: torn ACL... dislocated shoulder... blown knee... separated rotator cuff... dislocated vertebra or slipped disc in the back... Everybody says Charles Martin was lucky because Czar Glazkov suffered a blown knee in their fight -- but Martin was doing okay before the injury happened - the fight was even.. Vitali was dominating Byrd even with the injury until the final round where the shoulder went completely.

[evrenb]

you seem to imagine that when a fighter you favor has an injury...it's just happenstance...coulda happened to anybody. As if perhaps Byrd and Lewis weren't in the ring with him, and he simply tripped on his own shoes. Which admittedly could have happened...but the likelihood is slim. When a boxer is injured....you rarely need to look too much further than his opponent as the chief cause. You on the other hand will search the world over for some sort of conspiratorial aspect...

BuzzBox you have to expand your thinking a ton... Did Vitali trip on his shoes??? No he didn't... Was he easily out-pointing Byrd all all the way, even with a badly separated rotator cuff assembly that eventually severed in 2 and halted the fight??? Yes he was... Was there any conspiracy going on??? No there wasn't... Is a rotator cuff tear a commonplace injury??? Yes it is... When during that fight did Byrd cause that injury??? Many injuries ARE happenstance... Nobody plans them to happen or expects them to happen... Byrd's never separated anyone else's rotator cuff with all his skills... None of his slower and more inept opponents suffered that injury... So he did this deliberately to Vitali??? ... That's totally airhead of you to say that.

Now let's look at other injuries in fights... Ali's broken jaw... That was caused by 10/1 underdog Norton... Holmes torn biceps.. That was NOT caused by Norton.. Jesse Lejia punctured ear drum... That was caused by Kostya Tszyu... Yuri Foreman's torn ACL... That was NOT caused by Cotto... Liston's torn biceps... That was not caused by Ali... Joe Bugner's broken jaw... That was caused by Larry Middleton... Sonny Liston's broken jaw... That was caused by Marty Marshall... Harold Johnson's injury to an intervertebral disc in his back... That was NOT caused by Joe Walcott

It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to realize that some injuries were inflicted by the opponent and some weren't... and which ones they are:

Broken jaws, broken ribs, cut eyes---which can happen from foul blows, clean blows, or head butting---pounded brain, and closed eyes are inflicted.

And some injuries AREN'T caused by the opponent: torn ACL... dislocated shoulder... blown knee... separated rotator cuff... dislocated vertebra or slipped disc in the back... Everybody says Charles Martin was lucky because Czar Glazkov suffered a blown knee in their fight -- but Martin was doing okay before the injury happened - the fight was even.. Vitali was dominating Byrd even with the injury until the final round where the shoulder went completely.

I bet your life Ali wouldn't have quit with a torn rotator cuff....

[SaadOffTheDeck]

you seem to imagine that when a fighter you favor has an injury...it's just happenstance...coulda happened to anybody. As if perhaps Byrd and Lewis weren't in the ring with him, and he simply tripped on his own shoes. Which admittedly could have happened...but the likelihood is slim. When a boxer is injured....you rarely need to look too much further than his opponent as the chief cause. You on the other hand will search the world over for some sort of conspiratorial aspect...

BuzzBox you have to expand your thinking a ton... Did Vitali trip on his shoes??? No he didn't... Was he easily out-pointing Byrd all all the way, even with a badly separated rotator cuff assembly that eventually severed in 2 and halted the fight??? Yes he was... Was there any conspiracy going on??? No there wasn't... Is a rotator cuff tear a commonplace injury??? Yes it is... When during that fight did Byrd cause that injury??? Many injuries ARE happenstance... Nobody plans them to happen or expects them to happen... Byrd's never separated anyone else's rotator cuff with all his skills... None of his slower and more inept opponents suffered that injury... So he did this deliberately to Vitali??? ... That's totally airhead of you to say that.

Now let's look at other injuries in fights... Ali's broken jaw... That was caused by 10/1 underdog Norton... Holmes torn biceps.. That was NOT caused by Norton.. Jesse Lejia punctured ear drum... That was caused by Kostya Tszyu... Yuri Foreman's torn ACL... That was NOT caused by Cotto... Liston's torn biceps... That was not caused by Ali... Joe Bugner's broken jaw... That was caused by Larry Middleton... Sonny Liston's broken jaw... That was caused by Marty Marshall... Harold Johnson's injury to an intervertebral disc in his back... That was NOT caused by Joe Walcott

It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to realize that some injuries were inflicted by the opponent and some weren't... and which ones they are:

Broken jaws, broken ribs, cut eyes---which can happen from foul blows, clean blows, or head butting---pounded brain, and closed eyes are inflicted.

And some injuries AREN'T caused by the opponent: torn ACL... dislocated shoulder... blown knee... separated rotator cuff... dislocated vertebra or slipped disc in the back... Everybody says Charles Martin was lucky because Czar Glazkov suffered a blown knee in their fight -- but Martin was doing okay before the injury happened - the fight was even.. Vitali was dominating Byrd even with the injury until the final round where the shoulder went completely.

I bet your life Ali wouldn't have quit with a torn rotator cuff....

Not a chance. You know who else wouldn't have? Chris Byrd.

[Kalan]

I'd pick vitali to beat many more accomplished fighters, Morrison is one of them. Sadly, for you, all time lists are not compiled by your silly predections that lean heavily on far more first round knockouts that have ever occured. Vitali was not a puncher. That's a fact. He'd beat hipp to a bloody tko, but never come close to flooring him.the Morrison fight would likely go the distance.

Morrison probably couldn't go the distance with Herbie Hide... Larry Donald... Juan Carlos Gomez... Sam Peter... Tomasz Adamek... Kirk Johnson... Corrie Sanders... Vaughan Bean... and many other Heavyweights Vitali Klitschko knocked out.. Vitali is one of the biggest punchers and with the 2nd highest KO ratio of any retired Heavyweight Champion in History.

Vitali took Herbie Hide out with 1 punch in 2 rounds... Michael Bentt couldn't hurt Hide and got murdered... Michael Bentt smashed Morrison out in one (1)

[Ambling Alp II]

That's quite the honor role of legends.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

KO% and your iq wouldn't be worth a bus pass. The argument of the truly belittled. He was an arm puncher, being a huge man it still adds up but he didn't have anywhere near the punching power of his brother. Or holyfield, Rahman, etc..

[Kalan]

I bet your life Ali wouldn't have quit with a torn rotator cuff....

Ali quit in his corner against Holmes...and you know they should have pulled Ali out a lot earlier... Vitali quit in his corner too... It's a tough decision.

You have to weigh 2 things in your decision... Is winning 1 fight worth my health and possibly risking my career??? ... Or do I take the loss... absorb no real damage... get my shoulder fixed properly by top surgeons... regain the Heavyweight Title... have a long prosperous career until I'm 41 years old --- so I can retire and get into politics which has always been a dream of mine???

Vitali chose the smart answer... He didn't expose himself to risk and later became a 3-time Heavyweight Champion -- and has a great career after Boxing.

[Jaywheel]

That's quite the honor role of legends.

A murderers row. Koed blown up cruisers and couldn't put a dent in Briggs. Less than average puncher.

[Kalan]

KO% and your iq wouldn't be worth a bus pass. The argument of the truly belittled. He was an arm puncher, being a huge man it still adds up but he didn't have anywhere near the punching power of his brother. Or holyfield, Rahman, etc..

Hasim Rahman didn't have a lot of power... He caught Lewis by accident... But Rahman couldn't hurt the China-chinnned Oleg Maskaev who knocked Rahman out twice... There's a long list of guys who knocked Maskaev out---but Oleg was very confident whenever he fought the inept Rahman.

Holyfield didn't have a lot of power... He couldn't hurt Vaughan Bean or Larry Donald... Vitali is the only fighter who ever knocked out either of them out

[Kalan]

couldn't put a dent in Briggs. Less than average puncher.

Vitali put more than a dent in Briggs... He was 40 years old and he put Briggs into the hospital with several broken facial bones...

Vitali has an 87% KO ratio... Triple-G has an 89% KO ratio so I'd say that's damned pretty good... 2nd highest among all retired Heavyweight Champions

The average fighter doesn't fight at the world level -- and doesn't even get half his wins by KO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

. Rahman punched hard enough to send vitali running into retirement so he didn't have to face him. Cowardly move wouldn't you agree? He ducked the hell out of him. Unlike Lewis, his retirement was fear based.

[evrenb]

I bet your life Ali wouldn't have quit with a torn rotator cuff....

Ali quit in his corner against Holmes...and you know they should have pulled Ali out a lot earlier... Vitali quit in his corner too... It's a tough decision.

You have to weigh 2 things in your decision... Is winning 1 fight worth my health and possibly risking my career??? ... Or do I take the loss... absorb no real damage... get my shoulder fixed properly by top surgeons... regain the Heavyweight Title... have a long prosperous career until I'm 41 years old --- so I can retire and get into politics which has always been a dream of mine???

Vitali chose the smart answer... He didn't expose himself to risk and later became a 3-time Heavyweight Champion -- and has a great career after Boxing.

I knew you would come back with that. Pathetic individual who cannot separate his personal feelings in a debate.

[Jaywheel]

couldn't put a dent in Briggs. Less than average puncher.

Vitali put more than a dent in Briggs... He was 40 years old and he put Briggs into the hospital with several broken facial bones...

Vitali has an 87% KO ratio... Triple-G has an 89% KO ratio so I'd say that's damned pretty good... 2nd highest among all retired Heavyweight Champions

The average fighter doesn't fight at the world level -- and doesn't even get half his wins by KO.

He could not Ko him. Journey men Darroll Wilson who was KOed 7 times pulverized Briggs in 3. Foreman was well over 40 when he koed moorer and coetzee. Yet pitypat puncher VK could not finish Briggs with a bat.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan, it is pretty unusual processing for you to deny that a very agile and athletic fighter could not manage to have his less athletic opponent suffer a hurtful injury on the basis of simple pursuit.

It happens a lot....however many of these hurt fighters don't just quit as a result, they simply keep fighting the losing battle and hang in there until THEY get lucky, or it ends with them being KO'd or it goes to a decision.

Not so for Liston or Vitali in the cases you are citing.

This is not debatable...it's somewhat routine. And not at all a stretch as a possibility to consider in these cases.


It's like you have a fairly smart side of your brain that just has decided to shut off all discussions with the duller side. No info passes from one side to the other. Sort of like todays politics.


Gotta get that left side of your brain to acknowledge the right side, and get them working in tandem. At that point i'm sure you'll end up right as rain.

[Kalan]

You're weird BuzzBox... Who but haters are saying Vitali wasn't faster and more agile then Byrd??? Was Vitali Klitschko ever outscored by any opponent??? Was anyone ever leading him on points following any any of his fights??? How about Byrd??? Did anybody ever outscore CB during the course of a fight??? Maybe he wasn't so fast an agile as you think.. You know, Vitali completely dominated and stopped 3 opponents who gave Wladimir an extremely tough time: Puritty, Sanders, and Peter.. So if Wladimir is going to own Byrd every round and beat the living bejabbers out of him at a time when Wlad is not even the finished article before he gets Steward, you know a healthy Vitali is going to beat him a lot worse.

Little Roy Jones outscored the clumsy and much bigger John Ruiz by a ton. Roy was fast and agile and he could even box. Ruiz was a punching bag. Byrd was okay, but got nailed easily by the best like Vitali Klitschko. VK didn't have to strain himself to reach Byrd.

He outscored Byrd by tons of connects even with a wrecked rotator cuff and having the use of his left greatly diminished... VK was suffering a sore shoulder in camp and rested it and thought he would be good enough to go, but it wasn't... Chris Byrd is not God.

A blown knee or shoulder.. a sprained ankle or wrist.. an ACL pull.. Those are all acts of God.. Not that God is deliberately thwarting somebody -- he could care less who wins a fight.. But you know insurance companies call unfortunate and unforeseen accidents acts of God.. Cuz God knows they're coming and he has a choice to prevent them or not.. We know they're not acts of Chris Byrd.

[Ambling Alp II]

It was a crappy fight. I had Byrd up by a point. The scorecards were ridiculous. Klitschko didn't land hardly anything decent.
He wimped out. Most guys would have toughed it out with just three rounds to go. All he had to do was not throw a punch with that hand.

He went 0-2 in fights that mattered.

[BoxBuzz]

You're weird BuzzBox... Who but haters are saying Vitali wasn't faster and more agile then Byrd??? Was Vitali Klitschko ever outscored by any opponent??? Was anyone ever leading him on points following any any of his fights??? How about Byrd??? Did anybody ever outscore CB during the course of a fight??? Maybe he wasn't so fast an agile as you think.. You know, Vitali completely dominated and stopped 3 opponents who gave Wladimir an extremely tough time: Puritty, Sanders, and Peter.. So if Wladimir is going to own Byrd every round and beat the living bejabbers out of him at a time when Wlad is not even the finished article before he gets Steward, you know a healthy Vitali is going to beat him a lot worse.

Little Roy Jones outscored the clumsy and much bigger John Ruiz by a ton. Roy was fast and agile and he could even box. Ruiz was a punching bag. Byrd was okay, but got nailed easily by the best like Vitali Klitschko. VK didn't have to strain himself to reach Byrd.

He outscored Byrd by tons of connects even with a wrecked rotator cuff and having the use of his left greatly diminished... VK was suffering a sore shoulder in camp and rested it and thought he would be good enough to go, but it wasn't... Chris Byrd is not God.

A blown knee or shoulder.. a sprained ankle or wrist.. an ACL pull.. Those are all acts of God.. Not that God is deliberately thwarting somebody -- he could care less who wins a fight.. But you know insurance companies call unfortunate and unforeseen accidents acts of God.. Cuz God knows they're coming and he has a choice to prevent them or not.. We know they're not acts of Chris Byrd.

Byrd was very agile.....and as Alp mentioned, could have been considered very competitive in that fight that Vitali did not have the heart to finish. I think you over emphasize Vitali's positives. Not sure why you don't give Byrd the credit that is due....and that injury was not an act of god....it was as a result of GOOD work Byrd did to force Vitali into a situation where he overreached and sprained his vaginal tendons. uh I mean his transmission assembly.

And based on the interview post fight, Byrd appeared in full control and nary missing a single living bejabber. He also appeared to be a/the winner.

[cfang]

It was a crappy fight. I had Byrd up by a point. The scorecards were ridiculous. Klitschko didn't land hardly anything decent.
He wimped out. Most guys would have toughed it out with just three rounds to go. All he had to do was not throw a punch with that hand.

He went 0-2 in fights that mattered.

[BoxBuzz]

It was one of the worst show of hearts in history......Vitali totaly wimped out....Byrd had taken the fight on 10 days notice...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I forgot about that. I was pissed when I turned it on expecting vitali/Ruddock.