Best British Middleweights

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 16 Mar 2006, 08:50

After reading a few posts recently and watching a few old fights I thought I would get other people's views. Lets not make it difficult rate middle, super and light middlewieghts as one. I know some may have been better at the lighter or heavier weights but lets just rate them as a whole. Before Minter/Sibson/Finnegan era I'm not an expert so some of the older guys and the ones who know their history can let us know about the scene back then. I know we had some good fighters who never got a World title shot, but were good all the same. I think this is one of the best weights for us Brits. Maybe its a natural weight for our population.

Rate your top 10. Some of the guys in there may be Benn, Watson, Eubank, Calzaghe, Reid, Woodhall, Downes, Minter, Sibson, Finnegan, Graham, Sterling, Turpin, Pyatt, Eastman.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Mar 2006, 09:54

I've thought the same thing, it must be near the average weight for our population because historically we've done well at middleweight and in earlier times welterweight.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 16 Mar 2006, 09:58

So whats your top 10 Mr McDonnell?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Mar 2006, 10:04

God, have to think about that one. Hard to rattle off, because of the differing strength in depth in various era. For instance, in Turpin's era there was only one champ, and he happened to be SRR at that time. Same goes for Sibson, great era for middleweights including domestically.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Mar 2006, 10:30

Turpin has to be number one... most people think he "just" beat SRR and vanished but he had some other great wins stopping Don Cockell and dropping him 3 times is incredible he also did very well in the rematch with SRR..
Then it starts getting tricky

2. Graham
3. Minter
4. Sibson
5. Watson
6. Eubank
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jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Mar 2006, 10:36

Calzaghe doesn't get a look in? Or is that because he's a super middleweight?

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Mar 2006, 10:58

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Calzaghe doesn't get a look in? Or is that because he's a super middleweight?

the later... and all those guys were same day weigh in middles

Calzaghe would have to be compared to Conteh and co really

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Mar 2006, 11:01

Turpin was a massive Middleweight though, and although we've always heard how much Calzaghe struggles to make weight, he doesn't look like a light heavyweight.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Mar 2006, 11:14

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Turpin was a massive Middleweight though, and although we've always heard how much Calzaghe struggles to make weight, he doesn't look like a light heavyweight.

Massive or not he made the limit on the day.....
Calzaghe couldnt do 12 stone on the day :-)

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 16 Mar 2006, 11:49

1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. = Len Harvey & Nigel Benn
4. Randolph Turpin
5. Jock McAvoy
6. Herol Graham
7 = Chris Eubank & Michael Watson
9. Alan Minter
10. Terry Downes

I didnt rate Joe Calzaghe as he didnt make middleweight in his peak. I counted Bob Fitz as a Brit, and I'd rank him in the top 10 middles of all time of all nationalities. Could rank Len Harvey and Jock McAvoy as light heavies but they also had considerable success at middleweight. I found it difficult to split Harvey & Benn because of the different eras, but Harvey has got to be one of Britains top 10 lb 4 lb fighters. Difficult also to split Eubank and Watson as both their fights were so close, i thought Watson was getting the better of both fights until the end of the second fight.
Honourable mentions also to Tony Sibson, Kevin Finnegan, and Howard Eastman.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Mar 2006, 22:43

I am surprised you guys rate Benn so high at middle
he was much better at super middle a more balanced fighter
Middleweight saw him lose to both Eubank and Watson convincingly so its hard to rank him above them at 160.. the Barkley result stands out of course...but does it carry more weight than the two stoppage defeats???

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 17 Mar 2006, 03:34

I loved Benn and when you wrote him off; McClellen and Barkley he answered the critics. I know about the weight differences but as i said before just rate them as one.

For me Benn is number 1, if only he had a better chin, that was his only fault. I think he became better with age when he boxed rather than trying to KO everyone. I rate Calzaghe so highly, before the Lacy fight, and would have him right up there. Eubank didn't get the credit he deserved but also had one or two dubious decisions. I don't know about Minter another vunerable to being stopped. I think Herol Graham had the most talent but always failed at the final hurdle. I think Watson would have been a great fighter but the McCallum fight set him back a few years and obviously the Eubank defeat ended he career prematurly but his defeat of Benn was an excellent tactical fight. Mine would be based on what I've seen and read, on what they achieved but mainly who would beat who:

1. Benn
2. Graham
3. Calzaghe
4. Turpin
5. Watson
6. Eubank
7. Sibson
8. Downes
9. Reid (very under rated IMO)
10. Hope
11. Eastman (Most annoying, great talent but doesn't use it)
12. Minter

I've done this but already I want to change it!

vargas · Post by **vargas** » 17 Mar 2006, 07:43

1. Randolph Turpin
2. Nigel Benn
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. Michael Watson
5. Herol Graham
6. Chris Eubank
7. Tony Sibson
8. Terry Downes
9. Maurice Hope
10. Alan Minter

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 17 Mar 2006, 13:54

How come no-one else ranks Bob Fitz at no. 1? He was virtually unbeaten at middleweight, won the light heavy and heavy titles, and beat lots of great fighters in his day. I know the old timers arent as good technically as the modern fighters, but i think if they dominate their era like Fitz did theyd do well in the later eras too. As such Id put him ahead of Nigel Benn, who i revere

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 17 Mar 2006, 14:12

I need to think about this one but Jock McAvoy, Randy Turpin, Alan Minter, Herol Graham, Tony Sibson, Nigel Benn would all be in my top ten.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 17 Mar 2006, 16:29

to be honest this one is a bit to hard to give my all time list, unlike alot of the divisions where there is an arguement over one or two places, in the Middleweight top 10 you could argue that anyone of them could beat one of the others on a given day.

suffice to say that all the boxers already mentioned would be in my top ten, but i can't put them in order

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 17 Mar 2006, 18:03

Yeah it is mate! I keep changing mine. Probably our best weight division ever.

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 18 Mar 2006, 06:30

Such a "Subjective" thing, not enough people (myself included) know ALL the Facts... younger fans go with what the TV has put before them in the last 30 years, older fans are usually "Stuck" on achievements (world titles), Historians can pull a few more worthy fighters into the mix - but still achievement based... "there really are DOZENS of men they Should/HAVE to considered!

Here is Historian, the great Gilbert Odd's list: Britain's Top 10 'middleweights' according to Gilbert Odd, (arguable)!

1 Randolph Turpin; 2. Jock McAvoy; 3. Len Harvey; 4. Ted 'Kid' Lewis; 5. Terry Downes; 6. Tommy Milligan; 7. Ernie Roderick; 8. Roland Todd; 9. Pat McAteer;10. Johnny Sullivan..

Considerations... Len Harvey was a L-HW and Britains best at that weight, Ted 'Kid' Lewis was a Welterweight and probably Britains best at the weight, likewise Ernie Roderick was a Welterweight and probably in the top 3 at that weight, Randolph Turpin was NOT better than Jock McAvoy - "hands down" and you have to include such fighters like Tommy Milligan, Jack Casey, Len Johnson (some would say Tops), Bert Gilroy, Ginger Sadd, Dick Turpin and tough guy Harry Scot...

There are a few lads who could put an "objective" list together (maybe Kev and Barry and KOJOE), say of the top 15 maybe 25, considering ALL the Facts...

but based on my reasearch I am confident in the Top 3, Jock McAvoy, Bert Gilroy, Len Johnson after that there can be and will be moving around, but I would say Milligan, Casey and Ginger Sadd would rate higher than most of the MW's of the last 40 years...

One man's educated/researched opinion.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 18 Mar 2006, 06:40

Exactly was I said in my first post. I based mine on the last 20 odd years and from what I know of some of the others but its just my opinion and as I said some of the older guys and those who do more research can let us know about the guys from 1950 and before.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 18 Mar 2006, 06:58

All time

1. Len Harvey
2. Randolph Turpin
3. Jock McAvoy
4. Herol Graham
5. Kevin Finnegan
6. Bunny Sterling
7. Tony Sibson
8. Alan Minter
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Michael Watson

In My time

1. Herol Graham
2. Tony Sibson
3. Alan Minter
4. Michael Watson
5. Chris Euabnk
6. Nigel Benn
7. Mark Kaylor
8. Howard Eastman
9. Frankie Lucas
10. Rod Douglas

Deserter · Post by **Deserter** » 18 Mar 2006, 07:17

Not really top 10 material, but thought it worth mentioning that in terms of modern fighters Rob McCracken's career gets overlooked frequently - victim of the fact he had the balls to go over to the States and campaign there.
Kevin Finnegan is another who is surprisingly absent from some lists - Hagler said he was the toughest man he ever fought...

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 18 Mar 2006, 07:55

Good call on Watson, I wouldn't rate Eubank over Benn!

Bob Fitzsimmons is more "rightly" tied to New Zealand and Austrailia, British born yes, but ALL of his acclaim was built and gained "down under" and then over to the States!

Here is a Great tribute to Len Johnson... http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0904-howard.html

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 18 Mar 2006, 09:23

Maybe not quite top ten material but I think Harry Scott at least deserves a mention.

I have to admit I always find top tens very, very difficult to put together as there are so many variables to consider.

I've done a few off the top of my head from time to time on this and other forums but as soon as I post them I often want to change them. I really need to sit down one day and give them some serious thought, keep them on my hard drive so I can easily 'fine tune' them as time goes by

I am also of the strong belief that there are two very different types of top tens.

(1) Based strictly on the fighters achievments.
(2) A head to head league table as in if all fighters in their primes could meet and fight each other who would get the most wins etc.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 18 Mar 2006, 15:18

KO Artist wrote:All time

1. Len Harvey
2. Randolph Turpin
3. Jock McAvoy
4. Herol Graham
5. Kevin Finnegan
6. Bunny Sterling
7. Tony Sibson
8. Alan Minter
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Michael Watson

In My time

1. Herol Graham
2. Tony Sibson
3. Alan Minter
4. Michael Watson
5. Chris Euabnk
6. Nigel Benn
7. Mark Kaylor
8. Howard Eastman
9. Frankie Lucas
10. Rod Douglas

How can you not have Benn in an all time list? His achievements are far more than some on that list.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 18 Mar 2006, 15:54

Because Benn never beat a consumate boxer with a punch