This was the point I knew for certain that guy was an absolute clown.TheDarkDestroyer wrote:Counter-puncher wrote:Reviewing a fighters career having actually watched more han two of his fights, now there's an innovative idea. It's crazy but it might just catch on
It may help.
Kalan has been my favourite so far, he's a well known trainer allegedly, but he talked some poo about Joe's career.
TheDarkDestroyer wrote:I agree on the fact Roy fought only 1 fight at SMW didn't he? So he isn't a great SMW. It's all subjective. But the win over Toney is a win over a 168 HoF level fighter. And whilst Kessler, Reid, woodhall, lacy are good. They are short of that. Eubank is HoF but it's fair to say it's not peak Eubank he fought is it.Ossyrules wrote:He has the best SMW legacy, but what Roy did to Toney in 12 rounds is a better feat than anything Calzaghe did to any other opponent. He would not beat peak Roy imoTheDarkDestroyer wrote:
I'd consider him one of the best SMW of all time, if not the best. Wouldn't you?
I like Calzaghe but it's no coincidence his cv is always bought up when discussing his legend. Fear of flying or not, the biggest fights weren't fought in his career.
Calzaghe could have out worked Toney, or Toney may have been too cute. Hopkins showed good ring craft and spoiling caused him problems. The main point is really though he hasn't got that level name on his record during their prime
I wouldn't argue differently regarding Jones-Toney, but Jones' time at SMW is so short it's hard for me to rate him highly there. I'd fancy Calzaghe against Toney, the workrate for me would win it. Toney is dangerous but lazy and I'd fancy Calzaghe's volume to outpoint him.
You mention Toney being lazy, the two fights i can remember at 168, Williams and Barkley, he threw 80 punches a round easilyTheDarkDestroyer wrote:I wouldn't argue differently regarding Jones-Toney, but Jones' time at SMW is so short it's hard for me to rate him highly there. I'd fancy Calzaghe against Toney, the workrate for me would win it. Toney is dangerous but lazy and I'd fancy Calzaghe's volume to outpoint him.Ossyrules wrote:He has the best SMW legacy, but what Roy did to Toney in 12 rounds is a better feat than anything Calzaghe did to any other opponent. He would not beat peak Roy imoTheDarkDestroyer wrote:
I'd consider him one of the best SMW of all time, if not the best. Wouldn't you?
I like Calzaghe but it's no coincidence his cv is always bought up when discussing his legend. Fear of flying or not, the biggest fights weren't fought in his career.
Boxerbeetle wrote: Out of that list Calzaghe did fight Veit (twice!), Mkrtchyan and Brewer (unless I'm misunderstanding your post?).
A very point now I think of it. Though an exception in his career. He was always cute over a volume fighter.Counter-puncher wrote:You mention Toney being lazy, the two fights i can remember at 168, Williams and Barkley, he threw 80 punches a round easilyTheDarkDestroyer wrote:I wouldn't argue differently regarding Jones-Toney, but Jones' time at SMW is so short it's hard for me to rate him highly there. I'd fancy Calzaghe against Toney, the workrate for me would win it. Toney is dangerous but lazy and I'd fancy Calzaghe's volume to outpoint him.Ossyrules wrote:
He has the best SMW legacy, but what Roy did to Toney in 12 rounds is a better feat than anything Calzaghe did to any other opponent. He would not beat peak Roy imo
I like Calzaghe but it's no coincidence his cv is always bought up when discussing his legend. Fear of flying or not, the biggest fights weren't fought in his career.
Even taking into account his not inconsiderable achievements, Toney is one of the biggest wastes of talent I've seen. He was fabulous to watch when he was on his game, which unfortunately he often wasn't. That extended clip of him sparring McClellan in the Kronk is fvcking great.Counter-puncher wrote:He threw probably 60-70 a round against Jirov at cruiser too
It's part of the enigma that is Toney, his fluctuating fitness and work rate
I do think part of the reason for the high output in the above fights was the aggressive style of his opponents who would come straight at him which gave him loads of easy countering opportunities
Against the likes of griffin or mccallum his output was much lower, making weight at 160 was probably a factor in the latter, but his output could definitely drop against people who were cuter and didn't come straight at him
How that would factor against Calzaghe isn't clear to say, joe could be very high output himself but would adapt to boxing more if countered like against Kessler.
I suspect Joe would end up having to go on the back foot and frustrate Toney, potshotting and picking and poking and taking a step back, if he tried to overwhelm him with output like he did Lacy, he'd eat some heavy counters
EnjoyCounter-puncher wrote:I don't think I've seen that, I'll check it out
I read your post as sparring against McCallum, and i thought what's the significance of that?Boxerbeetle wrote:EnjoyCounter-puncher wrote:I don't think I've seen that, I'll check it out
https://youtu.be/rds2-iNML00
TheDarkDestroyer wrote:I read your post as sparring against McCallum, and i thought what's the significance of that?Boxerbeetle wrote:EnjoyCounter-puncher wrote:I don't think I've seen that, I'll check it out
https://youtu.be/rds2-iNML00
Pascal was miles better than Manfredo and Bika. Could have taken on Woods any point for years. Pavlik was the fight that should have happened instead of the shot Jones. And even if Tarver had lost he was still miles better than Manfredo etc.TheDarkDestroyer wrote:Your argument is all wrong. Take into account the timing of all these fights, and aside from Johnson and arguably Dawson they were never going to happen. I mean why would Calzaghe fight Tarber after he beat Hopkins? Why would he ever have entertained Pascal?dirk2686 wrote:The question here is whether he should have stayed at 168 for so long fighting people like Salem, Pudwill and Ashira in fights nobody was bothered about, or moved division. An abiding memory of the Calzaghe days was Joe acting like the WBO super middleweight title was some absolute boxing holy grail.TheDarkDestroyer wrote:
Yes of course, but who do you consider better at the weight? I'm sure I can pull their resume apart too.
People talk about him having a lack of opponents. Well, he fought Hopkins. Hopkins fought Pavlik, Dawson, Johnson, Taylor, Tarver and Pascal. Joe fought none of them. He could have gone to 175 years earlier and fought Johnson, Woods or a Jones who wasn't completely shot. Stump up the money and get a fight with Ottke or Beyer made earlier in his reign. His legacy could have been fantastic; I certainly don't buy the no decent opposition available line.
The hands thing is a big issue with Calzaghe, before those issues he carried a pretty solid punch at title level. If he'd carried that further he could have been a more dominant figure. I tend to think, on the fear of flying bit, the comments that his dad talked him into going through with the Lacey fight are key. I don't think Calzaghe had as much confidence as it seemed but after he fought Lacey, while injured and totally dominated the guy who was meant to beat him, that is when he seemed to twig that he could and should step it up a level. I'm not entirely sure that Jones and Hopkins was a case of waiting for them to get old. Don't forget Hopkins cemented his legacy with wins post Calzaghe not just with his middleweight reign.thepocketrocket wrote:It was never really the other champs that were the issue for Joe. It was a terribly weak period at the weight, and Joe was accused of creaming his title for ten years.
However, Joe stated he was scared of flying which is why he couldn't travel to face Hopkins and Jones. That seemed to clear up roughly the time they started to slide (Hop) or became shot (Jones). That always smacked of bull. Add that to the all the Glen Johnson pull outs, he came across as a flat track bully.
By the time he fought them, his hands were gone and he was starting to slide also. I actually don't think we ever found out about how good he was. He may have lost or he may have won, but he never gave himself a chance of career defining fights.
Kessler seems the biggest night, and also showed he could change tactics halfway through a fight. He was never as good as he was that night, even if I had it closer than many.
Can't argue with a word. What i will say though is though B-Hop still had a pulse, and got good wins, he wasn't the B-Hop who did Tito by a long way, and I still had X winning. Jones has become a bum, we all knew at the time, and no JC fans going all revisionist will change that.GPTM1403 wrote:The hands thing is a big issue with Calzaghe, before those issues he carried a pretty solid punch at title level. If he'd carried that further he could have been a more dominant figure. I tend to think, on the fear of flying bit, the comments that his dad talked him into going through with the Lacey fight are key. I don't think Calzaghe had as much confidence as it seemed but after he fought Lacey, while injured and totally dominated the guy who was meant to beat him, that is when he seemed to twig that he could and should step it up a level. I'm not entirely sure that Jones and Hopkins was a case of waiting for them to get old. Don't forget Hopkins cemented his legacy with wins post Calzaghe not just with his middleweight reign.thepocketrocket wrote:It was never really the other champs that were the issue for Joe. It was a terribly weak period at the weight, and Joe was accused of creaming his title for ten years.
However, Joe stated he was scared of flying which is why he couldn't travel to face Hopkins and Jones. That seemed to clear up roughly the time they started to slide (Hop) or became shot (Jones). That always smacked of bull. Add that to the all the Glen Johnson pull outs, he came across as a flat track bully.
By the time he fought them, his hands were gone and he was starting to slide also. I actually don't think we ever found out about how good he was. He may have lost or he may have won, but he never gave himself a chance of career defining fights.
Kessler seems the biggest night, and also showed he could change tactics halfway through a fight. He was never as good as he was that night, even if I had it closer than many.
In terms of the other champions I think you and one of the others early on got it right, the other champions weren't any better than what he did fight, it would have got him belts but nothing more. Also everyone assumes Calzaghe didn't choose to fight them, but that isn't always the case.
Toney vs barkley is probably one of my fav punch perfect fights,toney just seemed to stay on the ropes and slip everything barkley threw while landing with virtually every uppercut he threwTheDarkDestroyer wrote:One of my favourite rewatchable fights is him against Iran Barkey. He was immense.
He was somewhat of an enigma in his later career, it's hard to really judge a time when him and Joe could have fought, and it would be down to which Toney showed up, we know what Calzaghe does and he does it against anyone and Toney has been several different fighters at different times. I just don't see what he would have to beat Calzaghe. Toney on the back foot pot shotting with the right hand against Calzaghe isn't enough for me, people make too much of him going down against Hopkins and Jones jr, Joe would win a UD on volume and through pressing the fight for me.
There should be no need for JC fans to go all revisionist when talking about Roy Jones Jr - even Calzaghe wrote in his autobiography (published before he fought Jones) that RJJ was washed up.thepocketrocket wrote:Can't argue with a word. What i will say though is though B-Hop still had a pulse, and got good wins, he wasn't the B-Hop who did Tito by a long way, and I still had X winning. Jones has become a bum, we all knew at the time, and no JC fans going all revisionist will change that.GPTM1403 wrote:The hands thing is a big issue with Calzaghe, before those issues he carried a pretty solid punch at title level. If he'd carried that further he could have been a more dominant figure. I tend to think, on the fear of flying bit, the comments that his dad talked him into going through with the Lacey fight are key. I don't think Calzaghe had as much confidence as it seemed but after he fought Lacey, while injured and totally dominated the guy who was meant to beat him, that is when he seemed to twig that he could and should step it up a level. I'm not entirely sure that Jones and Hopkins was a case of waiting for them to get old. Don't forget Hopkins cemented his legacy with wins post Calzaghe not just with his middleweight reign.thepocketrocket wrote:It was never really the other champs that were the issue for Joe. It was a terribly weak period at the weight, and Joe was accused of creaming his title for ten years.
However, Joe stated he was scared of flying which is why he couldn't travel to face Hopkins and Jones. That seemed to clear up roughly the time they started to slide (Hop) or became shot (Jones). That always smacked of bull. Add that to the all the Glen Johnson pull outs, he came across as a flat track bully.
By the time he fought them, his hands were gone and he was starting to slide also. I actually don't think we ever found out about how good he was. He may have lost or he may have won, but he never gave himself a chance of career defining fights.
Kessler seems the biggest night, and also showed he could change tactics halfway through a fight. He was never as good as he was that night, even if I had it closer than many.
In terms of the other champions I think you and one of the others early on got it right, the other champions weren't any better than what he did fight, it would have got him belts but nothing more. Also everyone assumes Calzaghe didn't choose to fight them, but that isn't always the case.
I feel we missed out on some great trilogies. Upsets me even more than Sinky, Hare, and Khaliq never getting it on!
The shame for Joe was that whilst Jones was seen as past it and old even then, (and in spite of some revisionism it's still seen as an elite fighter v a shot fighter), Pavlik was both the big name and beatable. Calzaghe had a career harmed by a lack of decent names and that was a real chance. Look how much credit Hopkins got for that win?jamesmcdonnell wrote:The Jones fight was shameful really - he'd said he'd never fight him because he was just a shell of who he had been, than went and fought him.
Jones in his brief pomp at 168 would have beaten Calzaghe easily. it's not that Calzaghe wasn't good, he was a really good fighter, but Jones was seemingly superhuman in his prime.
I don't recall any clamour for a fight with Pavlik, nor any talk from Pavlik about wanting to fight Joe.dirk2686 wrote:The shame for Joe was that whilst Jones was seen as past it and old even then, (and in spite of some revisionism it's still seen as an elite fighter v a shot fighter), Pavlik was both the big name and beatable. Calzaghe had a career harmed by a lack of decent names and that was a real chance. Look how much credit Hopkins got for that win?jamesmcdonnell wrote:The Jones fight was shameful really - he'd said he'd never fight him because he was just a shell of who he had been, than went and fought him.
Jones in his brief pomp at 168 would have beaten Calzaghe easily. it's not that Calzaghe wasn't good, he was a really good fighter, but Jones was seemingly superhuman in his prime.
Calzaghe saying they offered Pavlik a fight after he beat Lacy is pathetic. Pavlik was a guy who'd been in one scheduled 12 round fight in his life. It would be like Hughie beating Parker and really going on to show how good a talent he was, and Wilder ducking the fight because he was offered it when he was a kid.thepocketrocket wrote:http://www.skysports.com/boxing/news/12 ... is-gutless
2008 piece on why Joe said he wasn't fighting Pavlik, how Pavlik was calling him out, and bullshit about how Hopkins was out on his feet when he fought Joe.
I actually forgot how irritating this guys was.
I have always felt like it was known Jones was the cash out fight for Calzaghe, it was big money and a chance that he didn't have too much risk against it. Can't blame him, equivalent of a footballer signing for MLS for some pension money.thepocketrocket wrote:Can't argue with a word. What i will say though is though B-Hop still had a pulse, and got good wins, he wasn't the B-Hop who did Tito by a long way, and I still had X winning. Jones has become a bum, we all knew at the time, and no JC fans going all revisionist will change that.GPTM1403 wrote:The hands thing is a big issue with Calzaghe, before those issues he carried a pretty solid punch at title level. If he'd carried that further he could have been a more dominant figure. I tend to think, on the fear of flying bit, the comments that his dad talked him into going through with the Lacey fight are key. I don't think Calzaghe had as much confidence as it seemed but after he fought Lacey, while injured and totally dominated the guy who was meant to beat him, that is when he seemed to twig that he could and should step it up a level. I'm not entirely sure that Jones and Hopkins was a case of waiting for them to get old. Don't forget Hopkins cemented his legacy with wins post Calzaghe not just with his middleweight reign.thepocketrocket wrote:It was never really the other champs that were the issue for Joe. It was a terribly weak period at the weight, and Joe was accused of creaming his title for ten years.
However, Joe stated he was scared of flying which is why he couldn't travel to face Hopkins and Jones. That seemed to clear up roughly the time they started to slide (Hop) or became shot (Jones). That always smacked of bull. Add that to the all the Glen Johnson pull outs, he came across as a flat track bully.
By the time he fought them, his hands were gone and he was starting to slide also. I actually don't think we ever found out about how good he was. He may have lost or he may have won, but he never gave himself a chance of career defining fights.
Kessler seems the biggest night, and also showed he could change tactics halfway through a fight. He was never as good as he was that night, even if I had it closer than many.
In terms of the other champions I think you and one of the others early on got it right, the other champions weren't any better than what he did fight, it would have got him belts but nothing more. Also everyone assumes Calzaghe didn't choose to fight them, but that isn't always the case.
I feel we missed out on some great trilogies. Upsets me even more than Sinky, Hare, and Khaliq never getting it on!
To an extent I agree. He was complaining bitterly about not being paid his fare share at the time, had taken Warren to court and was coming to the end of his career himself.GPTM1403 wrote:I have always felt like it was known Jones was the cash out fight for Calzaghe, it was big money and a chance that he didn't have too much risk against it. Can't blame him, equivalent of a footballer signing for MLS for some pension money.