Joe Calzaghe - Question Mark

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Over-rated.

[Jon Saxon]

You know what's better than 'would have retired Kelly Pavlik?'

Retiring Kelly Pavlik.

Did Pavlik even ever fight at supermiddle?

Calzaghe could have fought Pavlik instead of a shot Jones jnr but bottled it.

And the award for dumbest, most embarrassing post ever on the forum goes to...

[dirk2686]

Did Pavlik even ever fight at supermiddle?

Calzaghe could have fought Pavlik instead of a shot Jones jnr but bottled it.

And the award for dumbest, most embarrassing post ever on the forum goes to...

Why? If you're young I guess you may not recall the thoughts of people at the time but Pavlik was considered to be a seriously quality operator and Joe turned it down to face a Jones who everyone thought was shot, crucially including Calzaghe himself.

Revisionism concerning the Jones fight is a waste of time.

[thepocketrocket]

Calzaghe could have fought Pavlik instead of a shot Jones jnr but bottled it.

And the award for dumbest, most embarrassing post ever on the forum goes to...

Why? If you're young I guess you may not recall the thoughts of people at the time but Pavlik was considered to be a seriously quality operator and Joe turned it down to face a Jones who everyone thought was shot, crucially including Calzaghe himself.

Revisionism concerning the Jones fight is a waste of time.

Here is the problem. Anyone who wants to say that Jones was seen as a bigger threat than Pavlik (who has done Jermaine Taylor twice) either wasn't there and is just spouting names he has heard and using their relative fame as a benchmark, or is openly delusional/lying.

[youngrell]

I don't think anyone is claiming that Jones was a bigger threat than Pavlik, but the Jones fight surely paid more. It was his swan song, let him have it.

[dirk2686]

I have always felt like it was known Jones was the cash out fight for Calzaghe, it was big money and a chance that he didn't have too much risk against it. Can't blame him, equivalent of a footballer signing for MLS for some pension money.

To an extent I agree. He was complaining bitterly about not being paid his fare share at the time, had taken Warren to court and was coming to the end of his career himself.

That said, a major criticism of Joe was that he spent his career fighting second rate fighters and for a guy with so many fights there are precious few occasions when you thought he was in with anyone even approaching elite. Jones certainly wasn't when he fought him, yet at the time Pavlik clearly was at that level. Joe was also a very highly regarded fighter at the time; knocking on the door of being 3rd p4p in the world behind Mayweather and Pacquaio.

Plus, it really isn't ever wise to describe a fighter as old, shot to bits, finished, past it etc, and then fight them. The fact Calzaghe's biography did just that says a lot. I'm sure most people don't think Klitschko is completely shot, but plenty are saying he's probably a little past it and definitely on the slide. Yet at least Joshua and Fury had the gumption not to say as much beforehand. For me this meant the Jones fight was essentially a write off.

Looking back, the Lacy performance really was suberb. It feels a bit of a shame he only ever got back into a ring five more times, and that three of those were Jones, Bika and Manfredo.

Above suggests why I think it was a shame Joe had the swansong fight. And to be fair not everyone exits vs some washed up no hoper.

[Ossyrules]

Pavlik was clearly the better boxing match in terms of relevance. Roy was the money fight. I don't read anything into that fight, Jones is absolutely finished and had been a few fights earlier. Fair enough he got paid well for the fight but in terms of boxing relevance it means nothing.

[thepocketrocket]

Pavlik was the epitome of Joe's career bar Lacy (though anyone who had seen Lacy v Sheika knew he was being completely overated)

Pavlik would have been a huge name to beat at the time. Joe doesn't want that fight. Someone else beats him and someone else gets the credit for the huge win. Calzaghe fans drone that he 'wasn't that good' whilst taking about Lacy like he was King Kong.

[dirk2686]

Pavlik was the epitome of Joe's career bar Lacy (though anyone who had seen Lacy v Sheika knew he was being completely overated)

Pavlik would have been a huge name to beat at the time. Joe doesn't want that fight. Someone else beats him and someone else gets the credit for the huge win. Calzaghe fans drone that he 'wasn't that good' whilst taking about Lacy like he was King Kong.

It's a classic example of another name that people say Joe would have beaten, and who in all probability Joe genuinely would have beaten, but as with so many of those names, he didn't beat him because he never fought him.

[Ossyrules]

Pavlik was the epitome of Joe's career bar Lacy (though anyone who had seen Lacy v Sheika knew he was being completely overated)

Pavlik would have been a huge name to beat at the time. Joe doesn't want that fight. Someone else beats him and someone else gets the credit for the huge win. Calzaghe fans drone that he 'wasn't that good' whilst taking about Lacy like he was King Kong.

I don't buy into the notion Calzaghe feared the Pavlik fight. Pavlik was essentially a poor mans Kessler, who he'd already beaten. Boxed in straight lines, but naturally smaller, weaker fighter. Pre Lacy an argument could be made re confidence and fear but not at the time the bout was muted. The fact the bout didn't come off wasn't fear

[youngrell]

Above suggests why I think it was a shame Joe had the swansong fight. And to be fair not everyone exits vs some washed up no hoper.

No they don't, you are right.

But how many times have we seen champions lose to someone at the tail end of the careers that they'd have handled a few years previously, and then fans will say "he should have another fight, he can't go out like that"?

Calzaghe went out as he wanted to. On his terms. Shame for the fans, but not for him.

[dirk2686]

Above suggests why I think it was a shame Joe had the swansong fight. And to be fair not everyone exits vs some washed up no hoper.

No they don't, you are right.

But how many times have we seen champions lose to someone at the tail end of the careers that they'd have handled a few years previously, and then fans will say "he should have another fight, he can't go out like that"?

Calzaghe went out as he wanted to. On his terms. Shame for the fans, but not for him.

You're right, but I still think the Calzaghe situation was a little different because even at the tale end of his career he still felt like a guy who had a lot to prove. And he wasn't washed up. Lacy was a masterclass, he was probably in a career best against Kessler, and Hopkins is a hard night for anyone and he landed loads against him. I think he'd had taken Pavlik apart.

To repeat a point, it seems such a waste that a guy who for pretty much a decade was totally under the radar globally ended up becoming this massive name overnight by schooling Lacy, and his next two fights are Bika and Manfredo.

[youngrell]

Above suggests why I think it was a shame Joe had the swansong fight. And to be fair not everyone exits vs some washed up no hoper.

No they don't, you are right.

But how many times have we seen champions lose to someone at the tail end of the careers that they'd have handled a few years previously, and then fans will say "he should have another fight, he can't go out like that"?

Calzaghe went out as he wanted to. On his terms. Shame for the fans, but not for him.

You're right, but I still think the Calzaghe situation was a little different because even at the tale end of his career he still felt like a guy who had a lot to prove. And he wasn't washed up. Lacy was a masterclass, he was probably in a career best against Kessler, and Hopkins is a hard night for anyone and he landed loads against him. I think he'd had taken Pavlik apart.

To repeat a point, it seems such a waste that a guy who for pretty much a decade was totally under the radar globally ended up becoming this massive name overnight by schooling Lacy, and his next two fights are Bika and Manfredo.

Agree he still would have taken Pavlik apart at that stage, but he was definitely on the slide physically and mentally at that point so was in danger of losing his beloved '0' had he carried on facing the top guys, especially young ones.

His whole career is filled with disappointments and 'what ifs', but he knew it was time to bow out and I applaud him for that. Too many have gone one fight too far.

[jamesmcdonnell]

No they don't, you are right.

But how many times have we seen champions lose to someone at the tail end of the careers that they'd have handled a few years previously, and then fans will say "he should have another fight, he can't go out like that"?

Calzaghe went out as he wanted to. On his terms. Shame for the fans, but not for him.

You're right, but I still think the Calzaghe situation was a little different because even at the tale end of his career he still felt like a guy who had a lot to prove. And he wasn't washed up. Lacy was a masterclass, he was probably in a career best against Kessler, and Hopkins is a hard night for anyone and he landed loads against him. I think he'd had taken Pavlik apart.

To repeat a point, it seems such a waste that a guy who for pretty much a decade was totally under the radar globally ended up becoming this massive name overnight by schooling Lacy, and his next two fights are Bika and Manfredo.

Agree he still would have taken Pavlik apart at that stage, but he was definitely on the slide physically and mentally at that point so was in danger of losing his beloved '0' had he carried on facing the top guys, especially young ones.

His whole career is filled with disappointments and 'what ifs', but he knew it was time to bow out and I applaud him for that. Too many have gone one fight too far.

This was Calzaghe's problem, his pathological desire to avoid defeat. It's what stops him being considered an ATG.

[youngrell]

This was Calzaghe's problem, his pathological desire to avoid defeat. It's what stops him being considered an ATG.

What about his ability to avoid defeat?

[thepocketrocket]

You're right, but I still think the Calzaghe situation was a little different because even at the tale end of his career he still felt like a guy who had a lot to prove. And he wasn't washed up. Lacy was a masterclass, he was probably in a career best against Kessler, and Hopkins is a hard night for anyone and he landed loads against him. I think he'd had taken Pavlik apart.

To repeat a point, it seems such a waste that a guy who for pretty much a decade was totally under the radar globally ended up becoming this massive name overnight by schooling Lacy, and his next two fights are Bika and Manfredo.

Agree he still would have taken Pavlik apart at that stage, but he was definitely on the slide physically and mentally at that point so was in danger of losing his beloved '0' had he carried on facing the top guys, especially young ones.

His whole career is filled with disappointments and 'what ifs', but he knew it was time to bow out and I applaud him for that. Too many have gone one fight too far.

This was Calzaghe's problem, his pathological desire to avoid defeat. It's what stops him being considered an ATG.

I actually remember Calzaghe fans around the time trying to claim that his '0' was the proof that Hatton was 'stupid' for challenging the best fighters like Floyd and Pac.

[jamesmcdonnell]

This was Calzaghe's problem, his pathological desire to avoid defeat. It's what stops him being considered an ATG.

What about his ability to avoid defeat?

Hard to lose to guys you don't fight.

[youngrell]

This was Calzaghe's problem, his pathological desire to avoid defeat. It's what stops him being considered an ATG.

What about his ability to avoid defeat?

Hard to lose to guys you don't fight.

Ah yes. Forgot he didn't fight anyone.

[jamesmcdonnell]

What about his ability to avoid defeat?

Hard to lose to guys you don't fight.

Ah yes. Forgot he didn't fight anyone.

He fought mostly dregs, with a few notable exceptions. One of the weakest title runs in the history of the sport.

The sad thing is, his career could have been a lot more impressive if he hadn't waited until the end of the career to make the big fights happen.

I'll give credit where it's due, the wins over Brewer, Lacy, and Kessler were impressive, the Hopkins fight less so because so few punches were landed, and frankly he was lucky to get the nod, and Jones - well, we all know, even Joe said he was shot before he fought him.

Had he taken on all comers in his prime, and lost one or two, his resume would for me have looked more impressive - who knows, he may even have kept his 0.

[Autobarn]

During this era most champs from 160-175 played it safe, having the oddgood opponent here and there. It wasn't a great time, the era of above average sized guys making double digit title defenses.Hopkins. Calzaghe. Ottke. Hill. Michalczewski. jones Jr did it on a bigger scale, taking guaranteed 5mil licence fee from HBO to face basically anyone in the top 10 of the sanctioning bodies. It's not just Joe Calzaghe, who really was the real deal and unified in the end, and disappointed us in choosing to face Manfredo and Jones Jr. When you consider who promoted him, whose biggest name Naz had left him, and the shyness of Calzaghe, you can see why it panned out the way it did.

[TheLeprechaun]

I agreed with the judge who had Hopkins winning their fight. I thought he was landings sharp counters all-night

[Ossyrules]

To get realistic again, we aren't talking about one of the all time great boxing robberies here, like Evander being awarded a draw vs Lewis in the first fight. It was a close fight that Calzaghe edged but it was close enough for the Hopkins fans, or the people that liked pot shorting over volume, to feel their guy edged it.

Almost every top fighter will have had one of these close fights in their career

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I had calzaghe beating nard pretty convincingly.

[crusader]

I had calzaghe beating nard pretty convincingly.

Same, a clear and comfortabke win in my view. A lot of people greatly exaggerate ho well Hopkins was countering.

JC forced him into a shell for the most part

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I had calzaghe beating nard pretty convincingly.

Same, a clear and comfortabke win in my view. A lot of people greatly exaggerate ho well Hopkins was countering.

JC forced him into a shell for the most part

Yeah, Joe shut it down and broke Hopkins mentally like he did to so many others. I had it 116-112 for calzaghe. He really bullied the bully. Nice body work.