thepocketrocket wrote:Pavlik was the epitome of Joe's career bar Lacy (though anyone who had seen Lacy v Sheika knew he was being completely overated)
Pavlik would have been a huge name to beat at the time. Joe doesn't want that fight. Someone else beats him and someone else gets the credit for the huge win. Calzaghe fans drone that he 'wasn't that good' whilst taking about Lacy like he was King Kong.
It wasn't just the Sheika fight. Lacy had also had exciting fights with Rubin Williams and Syd Vanderpool.
The Sheika fight wasn't an anomaly it was part of an established trend of having tough fights with boxers who just weren't very good.
At the time I didn't know much about Calzaghe but I had seen Lacy struggle enough to know that if Calzaghe was actually better than his padded record he would walk right through Lacy.
thepocketrocket wrote:Pavlik was the epitome of Joe's career bar Lacy (though anyone who had seen Lacy v Sheika knew he was being completely overated)
Pavlik would have been a huge name to beat at the time. Joe doesn't want that fight. Someone else beats him and someone else gets the credit for the huge win. Calzaghe fans drone that he 'wasn't that good' whilst taking about Lacy like he was King Kong.
It wasn't just the Sheika fight. Lacy had also had exciting fights with Rubin Williams and Syd Vanderpool.
The Sheika fight wasn't an anomaly it was part of an established trend of having tough fights with boxers who just weren't very good.
At the time I didn't know much about Calzaghe but I had seen Lacy struggle enough to know that if Calzaghe was actually better than his padded record he would walk right through Lacy.
For the poll I selected neither.
I was torn as Joe had started to look a lot more fragile, so maybe a better version of Byron Mitchell may tag him. But i am with you, I am not sure where they hype had come from with Lacy, other than him being big, black, and muscley.
thepocketrocket wrote:Pavlik was the epitome of Joe's career bar Lacy (though anyone who had seen Lacy v Sheika knew he was being completely overated)
Pavlik would have been a huge name to beat at the time. Joe doesn't want that fight. Someone else beats him and someone else gets the credit for the huge win. Calzaghe fans drone that he 'wasn't that good' whilst taking about Lacy like he was King Kong.
It wasn't just the Sheika fight. Lacy had also had exciting fights with Rubin Williams and Syd Vanderpool.
The Sheika fight wasn't an anomaly it was part of an established trend of having tough fights with boxers who just weren't very good.
At the time I didn't know much about Calzaghe but I had seen Lacy struggle enough to know that if Calzaghe was actually better than his padded record he would walk right through Lacy.
For the poll I selected neither.
I was torn as Joe had started to look a lot more fragile, so maybe a better version of Byron Mitchell may tag him. But i am with you, I am not sure where they hype had come from with Lacy, other than him being big, black, and muscley.
I always considered kessler a far better win
I was swayed at the last minute when Lacy bashed Reid up like that - but in hindsight, Reid was finished. I'd sworn blind Calzaghe would muller Lacy until that fight, and then swayed the other way.
Perseus wrote:
It wasn't just the Sheika fight. Lacy had also had exciting fights with Rubin Williams and Syd Vanderpool.
The Sheika fight wasn't an anomaly it was part of an established trend of having tough fights with boxers who just weren't very good.
At the time I didn't know much about Calzaghe but I had seen Lacy struggle enough to know that if Calzaghe was actually better than his padded record he would walk right through Lacy.
For the poll I selected neither.
I was torn as Joe had started to look a lot more fragile, so maybe a better version of Byron Mitchell may tag him. But i am with you, I am not sure where they hype had come from with Lacy, other than him being big, black, and muscley.
I always considered kessler a far better win
I was swayed at the last minute when Lacy bashed Reid up like that - but in hindsight, Reid was finished. I'd sworn blind Calzaghe would muller Lacy until that fight, and then swayed the other way.
Hindsight is 20/20, we all have those blips. I thought Tsypko was going to be better than Froch!
thepocketrocket wrote:
I was torn as Joe had started to look a lot more fragile, so maybe a better version of Byron Mitchell may tag him. But i am with you, I am not sure where they hype had come from with Lacy, other than him being big, black, and muscley.
I always considered kessler a far better win
I was swayed at the last minute when Lacy bashed Reid up like that - but in hindsight, Reid was finished. I'd sworn blind Calzaghe would muller Lacy until that fight, and then swayed the other way.
Hindsight is 20/20, we all have those blips. I thought Tsypko was going to be better than Froch!
The thing is Reid had a cast iron chin, I don't think he'd ever been knocked down as a Pro If I remember rightly, and Lacy just hammered him from pillar to post. It was pretty compelling at the time.
I was swayed at the last minute when Lacy bashed Reid up like that - but in hindsight, Reid was finished. I'd sworn blind Calzaghe would muller Lacy until that fight, and then swayed the other way.
Hindsight is 20/20, we all have those blips. I thought Tsypko was going to be better than Froch!
The thing is Reid had a cast iron chin, I don't think he'd ever been knocked down as a Pro If I remember rightly, and Lacy just hammered him from pillar to post. It was pretty compelling at the time.
All the knockdowns came after Lacy was allowed to cheap shot Reid on the break - the result really flattered Lacy.
thepocketrocket wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20, we all have those blips. I thought Tsypko was going to be better than Froch!
The thing is Reid had a cast iron chin, I don't think he'd ever been knocked down as a Pro If I remember rightly, and Lacy just hammered him from pillar to post. It was pretty compelling at the time.
All the knockdowns came after Lacy was allowed to cheap shot Reid on the break - the result really flattered Lacy.
Yeah. I remember that now. Reid never really seemed to rec0ver.
The set up for Reid was an absolute shambles, he didn't even train properly, I'm not saying Lacy wouldn't have won but he'd have had a much harder time with a fully prepared Robin Reid.
I think the thread title sums up my views on Calzaghe - Question Mark.... There are so many ways at looking at Joe - Beautifully Managed, Terribly Managed, Overrated, Underrated - all are options.
A champion of the WBO for so long it is a huge shame and perhaps somewhat "odd" that he did not fight his two longest reigning champion -both of whom held the title for practically as long as Joe - Svenny and Markus Beyer. Easy nights work for Joe? Possibly, but then look at Beyer's performance against Woodhall and Sven's performance against Mitchell - both of whom gave Joe a tough night at the office..... problem is we just do not know.
As people know, I am still quite convinced that Bernard Hopkins beat Joe when they fought (cue the backlash) but, no matter how you scored it, even that performance is one big question mark - how faded was Hopkins? - He did some pretty good things for close to 10 years later, but usually against quite weak champions - he certainly picked them. Would a 2001 Hopkins done anything differently and quite a large number of experts have even suggested that Joe would have beaten Hopkins mark 2001 even more comfortably, because Hopkins mark 2001 made more mistakes.
Even Kessler - possibly his greatest win... there is, for me, a few question marks about how good/great Kessler was. A faded Marcus Beyer aside, his wins were not outstanding pre Joe (some excellent performances though) and post Joe is more known for a getting outclassed vs Ward and two wars with Froch. He is obviously world class, but in someways he did not live to his heir apparent successor to Joe.
Had he gone down the Ricky Hatton route of opponents, how long would he have lasted a champion? As he is undefeated the truthful answer is we do not know. Perhaps he would have beaten all of Sven, Beyer, and a prime Jones and Hopkins - perhaps he would have lost to all of them. Similarly had Ricky Hatton fought a long list of faded champions and lower tier ranked fighters how long would he have gone undefeated for.
One thing that perhaps doesn't get the respect with Boxing experts is Joe's longevity, to do what he did for a long as he did and not lose motivation, go off the rails, or be tempted with the bright lights of celebrity - that takes an awful lot of motivation. Injuries aside, he was always in tip top shape with a tremendous engine - with Joe you always knew what you were going to get.... its a shame we never can truly know how good this was though. Look how many of our great champions have had 1/2 the career of Joe in terms of title defenses and reign as champion.
TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑05 Feb 2018, 04:05
I dont think Jones realized how hurt Calzaghe was in the first round.
He did IMO - Jones' mindset since Tarver 2 has just gone. He became more interested in surviving and enjoying the sport as opposed to winning titles etc. Since Tarver 2 he is proud of fights where he has gone the distance. I've never seen a series of 24/7 and been so disinterested in a fight as that one - Roy didn't think he could win and I don't think Roy particularly wanted to win - play sparring with his fat friend.
stujones wrote: ↑05 Feb 2018, 05:30
I think the thread title sums up my views on Calzaghe - Question Mark.... There are so many ways at looking at Joe - Beautifully Managed, Terribly Managed, Overrated, Underrated - all are options.
A champion of the WBO for so long it is a huge shame and perhaps somewhat "odd" that he did not fight his two longest reigning champion -both of whom held the title for practically as long as Joe - Svenny and Markus Beyer. Easy nights work for Joe? Possibly, but then look at Beyer's performance against Woodhall and Sven's performance against Mitchell - both of whom gave Joe a tough night at the office..... problem is we just do not know.
As people know, I am still quite convinced that Bernard Hopkins beat Joe when they fought (cue the backlash) but, no matter how you scored it, even that performance is one big question mark - how faded was Hopkins? - He did some pretty good things for close to 10 years later, but usually against quite weak champions - he certainly picked them. Would a 2001 Hopkins done anything differently and quite a large number of experts have even suggested that Joe would have beaten Hopkins mark 2001 even more comfortably, because Hopkins mark 2001 made more mistakes.
Even Kessler - possibly his greatest win... there is, for me, a few question marks about how good/great Kessler was. A faded Marcus Beyer aside, his wins were not outstanding pre Joe (some excellent performances though) and post Joe is more known for a getting outclassed vs Ward and two wars with Froch. He is obviously world class, but in someways he did not live to his heir apparent successor to Joe.
Had he gone down the Ricky Hatton route of opponents, how long would he have lasted a champion? As he is undefeated the truthful answer is we do not know. Perhaps he would have beaten all of Sven, Beyer, and a prime Jones and Hopkins - perhaps he would have lost to all of them. Similarly had Ricky Hatton fought a long list of faded champions and lower tier ranked fighters how long would he have gone undefeated for.
One thing that perhaps doesn't get the respect with Boxing experts is Joe's longevity, to do what he did for a long as he did and not lose motivation, go off the rails, or be tempted with the bright lights of celebrity - that takes an awful lot of motivation. Injuries aside, he was always in tip top shape with a tremendous engine - with Joe you always knew what you were going to get.... its a shame we never can truly know how good this was though. Look how many of our great champions have had 1/2 the career of Joe in terms of title defenses and reign as champion.
That was a good read. I see you're from Wales yourself too. Very honest opinion.
His hand problems need to be mentioned too, he was a dangerous banger and needed to adapt his style accordingly.
Also his ability to change tact during fights was impressive.
This so called avoiding Glen Johnson is comical, Omar Sheika had just beat Johnson prior to Calzaghe absolutely taking him (Sheika) apart...Glen Johnson lost to clinton woods! Bika was a tough fighter who went on to be WBC champ AFTER Calzaghe beat him, Mario Viet beat current top fighter Braemar, decent if unfashionable wins! Only fighters he should've fought politics aside would be against Ottke/Beyer... However common oppos prove Joe was far better, compare performances against coming foes (Kessler Woodhall/Brewer/Mitchell)
remember Bernard Hopkins turning down millions to instead fight morrade Hakar for about 100k so......
prime wrote: ↑10 Feb 2018, 18:54
This so called avoiding Glen Johnson is comical, Omar Sheika had just beat Johnson prior to Calzaghe absolutely taking him (Sheika) apart...Glen Johnson lost to clinton woods! Bika was a tough fighter who went on to be WBC champ AFTER Calzaghe beat him, Mario Viet beat current top fighter Braemar, decent if unfashionable wins! Only fighters he should've fought politics aside would be against Ottke/Beyer... However common oppos prove Joe was far better, compare performances against coming foes (Kessler Woodhall/Brewer/Mitchell)
remember Bernard Hopkins turning down millions to instead fight morrade Hakar for about 100k so......
Surely you have to accept Johnson was a far superior fighter and bigger name than loads of people Calzaghe fought post-Eubank and pre-Lacy?
And where is the evidence that Hopkins turned down millions for the fight?
prime wrote: ↑10 Feb 2018, 18:54
This so called avoiding Glen Johnson is comical, Omar Sheika had just beat Johnson prior to Calzaghe absolutely taking him (Sheika) apart...Glen Johnson lost to clinton woods! Bika was a tough fighter who went on to be WBC champ AFTER Calzaghe beat him, Mario Viet beat current top fighter Braemar, decent if unfashionable wins! Only fighters he should've fought politics aside would be against Ottke/Beyer... However common oppos prove Joe was far better, compare performances against coming foes (Kessler Woodhall/Brewer/Mitchell)
remember Bernard Hopkins turning down millions to instead fight morrade Hakar for about 100k so......
Surely you have to accept Johnson was a far superior fighter and bigger name than loads of people Calzaghe fought post-Eubank and pre-Lacy?
And where is the evidence that Hopkins turned down millions for the fight?
The evidence is there for all to see, Bernard made crazy demands at the last minute when he was due to sign the contract, he suddenly asked for double the money, it's a matter of public record. Go look online, shouldn't take long.
prime wrote: ↑10 Feb 2018, 18:54
This so called avoiding Glen Johnson is comical, Omar Sheika had just beat Johnson prior to Calzaghe absolutely taking him (Sheika) apart...Glen Johnson lost to clinton woods! Bika was a tough fighter who went on to be WBC champ AFTER Calzaghe beat him, Mario Viet beat current top fighter Braemar, decent if unfashionable wins! Only fighters he should've fought politics aside would be against Ottke/Beyer... However common oppos prove Joe was far better, compare performances against coming foes (Kessler Woodhall/Brewer/Mitchell)
remember Bernard Hopkins turning down millions to instead fight morrade Hakar for about 100k so......
Surely you have to accept Johnson was a far superior fighter and bigger name than loads of people Calzaghe fought post-Eubank and pre-Lacy?
And where is the evidence that Hopkins turned down millions for the fight?
The evidence is there for all to see, Bernard made crazy demands at the last minute when he was due to sign the contract, he suddenly asked for double the money, it's a matter of public record. Go look online, shouldn't take long.
Ossyrules wrote: ↑30 Mar 2017, 06:53
Pavlik was clearly the better boxing match in terms of relevance. Roy was the money fight. I don't read anything into that fight, Jones is absolutely finished and had been a few fights earlier. Fair enough he got paid well for the fight but in terms of boxing relevance it means nothing.
I was still an active boxing journalist at the time, and I cannot remember there being any talk of Calzaghe ever fighting Pavlik. Maybe my memory is defective, but I don't remember this being offered to Calzaghe, let alone turned down.
At that stage, Joe was on his final lap, and was looking for big money fights. The Jones Jr fight was incredibly cynical, I lost a lot of respect for Calzaaghe over that, particularly because he said in his own autobiography that Jones was washed up and he would never fight him.
Ossyrules wrote: ↑30 Mar 2017, 06:53
Pavlik was clearly the better boxing match in terms of relevance. Roy was the money fight. I don't read anything into that fight, Jones is absolutely finished and had been a few fights earlier. Fair enough he got paid well for the fight but in terms of boxing relevance it means nothing.
I was still an active boxing journalist at the time, and I cannot remember there being any talk of Calzaghe ever fighting Pavlik. Maybe my memory is defective, but I don't remember this being offered to Calzaghe, let alone turned down.
At that stage, Joe was on his final lap, and was looking for big money fights. The Jones Jr fight was incredibly cynical, I lost a lot of respect for Calzaaghe over that, particularly because he said in his own autobiography that Jones was washed up and he would never fight him.
Calzaghe himself mentioned Pavlik at that stage of his career - along the lines of 'we offered him a fight years ago and he knocked it back. He's had his chance.'
Certainly there was more to it than just fans chatting about it. Even then, on places like this it was definitely a fight people wanted, unlike Jones.
Ossyrules wrote: ↑30 Mar 2017, 06:53
Pavlik was clearly the better boxing match in terms of relevance. Roy was the money fight. I don't read anything into that fight, Jones is absolutely finished and had been a few fights earlier. Fair enough he got paid well for the fight but in terms of boxing relevance it means nothing.
I was still an active boxing journalist at the time, and I cannot remember there being any talk of Calzaghe ever fighting Pavlik. Maybe my memory is defective, but I don't remember this being offered to Calzaghe, let alone turned down.
At that stage, Joe was on his final lap, and was looking for big money fights. The Jones Jr fight was incredibly cynical, I lost a lot of respect for Calzaaghe over that, particularly because he said in his own autobiography that Jones was washed up and he would never fight him.
Calzaghe himself mentioned Pavlik at that stage of his career - along the lines of 'we offered him a fight years ago and he knocked it back. He's had his chance.'
Certainly there was more to it than just fans chatting about it. Even then, on places like this it was definitely a fight people wanted, unlike Jones.
Fair enough. Almost any fight wpuld have been preferable to the ghost of Roy Jones at that point. It stank to high heaven.
