Ortiz to face Rossy April 22

[candyslim]

I've got this great investment opportunity Marv, but I don't know that I can trust you. Send me 500 bucks as evidence of good faith and I'll tell you all about it.

I can't say fairer than that can I?

[asdfjkl]

Wilder has been seeking a big fight for years but Wlad, Fury and Josh have not been available and Povetkin can not pass a drug test.

I'm sorry? Both Wlad, as well as Povetkin have been availeble, but Wilder didn't want to fight them. Josh has indeed not been availeble, but that's because it was or very early in his carreer, or because Wilder injured himself, or because Wilder scheduled a fight in such a way that he knew the fight couldn't happen.

[marvelous marv]

Wlad was contracted to fight Tyson Fury since July 2015 and tied up in the subsequent rematch that never happened. Tyson Fury has had mental health/substance abuse problems since their first fight. Povetkin was offered Wilder in September 2015 and Jan 2016 but decided to pass on the fight to force a purse bid. Then failed a prefight test.

[candyslim]

I guess I shouldn't scoff because it wasn't long ago I was making all sorts of excuses for Wilder saying that it wasn't his fault Povetkin failed a drug-test and he wouldn't have gone to Russia if he hadn't intended to go through with the fight ...

Having said that he didn't actually get to Russia did he? To be honest I find the minutae about test results pretty tedious, but I'm not convinced it was entirely on level, and that maybe DW knew it wouldn't be necessary to complete the second leg of his journey, even if I'm not willing to join our "Povetkin-is-innocent" conspiracy theorists from east of the old iron curtain, whose presence on this forum is nevertheless, to me, extremely welcome.

And sure he's had injuries, fair enough, but in over two years he has defended against Molina, Duhaupas, Szpilka, Arreola and Washington, not one of them rated in any non-politically motivated top-ten. Does anyone seriously believe that in all that time, no top ten Heavyweight was available or willing to fight for the World Championship ???. It's not like avoiding Ortiz who has no belt and represents a far-king great risk for little reward, this is the most prestigious of the belts ffs. Stiverne is still his best opponent to-date and that is shameful.

I've always liked Wilder, he's exciting and unpredictable, he hits like a freight-train and he would feature in the most mouth-watering matches that could be made at heavyweight. The division would be much poorer without him (or at least without the him we know he ought to be.)

I also like him as a person and I want to believe him when he goes on about wanting to unify the division, but to me it's all wearing very thin now.

C'mon Deontay, make me look like a complete know-nothing. weapons-grade-asshole. Shove my skepticism down my throat. I really won't mind not even a little bit, only ffs do it soon.

[punchoutsb]

Ffs Ortiz is keeping busy against a top 50 opponent. He doesn't need to justify his choice. He's not the sodding Heavyweight champion of the world fighting his sixth sub-standard patsy in what might laughably described as a title defence, while loudly proclaiming his intention to unify the title to anyone gullible enough to listen.

If you really don't see any difference then your brain cells must be extremely lonely.

His opponent roster reads like a Who's Not of the Heavyweight division; he's old and somehow his opponents have been regressing the past few fights. Wilder being a baby has nothing to do with the fact that this is another poor opponent in a long list of mostly poor opponents.

Wilder has been seeking a big fight for years but Wlad, Fury and Josh have not been available and Povetkin can not pass a drug test.

When 1,2,3, and 4 aren't available go for number 76! That's been the Wilder mantra.

[marvelous marv]

His last three opponents were Haymon signed fighters in top 15 ranking of the WBC when a different fight fell thru. You could make an argument that maybe some (Arreola) should not have been ranked there period but they had been in the rankings months before the situation arose that made them sign to fight Wilder. The only other prominent Haymon heavies are Breazeale and Ortiz.

[punchoutsb]

His last three opponents were Haymon signed fighters in top 15 ranking of the WBC when a different fight fell thru. You could make an argument that maybe some (Arreola) should not have been ranked there period but they had been in the rankings months before the situation arose that made them sign to fight Wilder. The only other prominent Haymon heavies are Breazeale and Ortiz.

The man has managed to avoid top heavyweights his entire career in an era when top heavyweights still aren't very good.

Rankings mean little when you consider he's about to fight number one ranked Bermane Stiverne again. Bermane earned this ranking and title shot by struggling to get past Derrick Rossy a year ago. He's fought 8 times in the last seven years, and it's been six years since he's looked good against an opponent not named Chris Arreola.

[candyslim]

Ffs Ortiz is keeping busy against a top 50 opponent. He doesn't need to justify his choice. He's not the sodding Heavyweight champion of the world fighting his sixth sub-standard patsy in what might laughably described as a title defence, while loudly proclaiming his intention to unify the title to anyone gullible enough to listen.

If you really don't see any difference then your brain cells must be extremely lonely.

His opponent roster reads like a Who's Not of the Heavyweight division; he's old and somehow his opponents have been regressing the past few fights. Wilder being a baby has nothing to do with the fact that this is another poor opponent in a long list of mostly poor opponents.

Wilder has been seeking a big fight for years but Wlad, Fury and Josh have not been available and Povetkin can not pass a drug test.

When 1,2,3, and 4 aren't available go for number 76! That's been the Wilder mantra.

I assume by "His opponent roster ..." you are referring to Ortiz? Yes he's old having spent most of his career as an amateur, maybe he should have made the jump sooner. He hasn't looked much in his last two fights but prior to that he looked forbiddingly capable. As one of Hwt boxing's most recent recruits to "The who needs him club", is it any wonder that he hasn't faced top opposition, especially when the various title holders appear to see him as high risk/ low reward?.

As a matter of interest punchoutsb, are there any current Heavyweights you rate highly?

[punchoutsb]

Ffs Ortiz is keeping busy against a top 50 opponent. He doesn't need to justify his choice. He's not the sodding Heavyweight champion of the world fighting his sixth sub-standard patsy in what might laughably described as a title defence, while loudly proclaiming his intention to unify the title to anyone gullible enough to listen.

If you really don't see any difference then your brain cells must be extremely lonely.

His opponent roster reads like a Who's Not of the Heavyweight division; he's old and somehow his opponents have been regressing the past few fights. Wilder being a baby has nothing to do with the fact that this is another poor opponent in a long list of mostly poor opponents.

Wilder has been seeking a big fight for years but Wlad, Fury and Josh have not been available and Povetkin can not pass a drug test.

When 1,2,3, and 4 aren't available go for number 76! That's been the Wilder mantra.

I assume by "His opponent roster ..." you are referring to Ortiz? Yes he's old having spent most of his career as an amateur, maybe he should have made the jump sooner. He hasn't looked much in his last two fights but prior to that he looked forbiddingly capable. As one of Hwt boxing's most recent recruits to "The who needs him club", is it any wonder that he hasn't faced top opposition, especially when the various title holders appear to see him as high risk/ low reward?.

As a matter of interest punchoutsb, are there any current Heavyweights you rate highly?

Aside from his win over Jennings his resume is flat. I understand that someone like Wilder may not want to fight him, but there are plenty of tough top 25-ish guys out there that don't hold titles. Why hasn't he faced Pulev, Takam, Chisora, Wach, Ustinov, Hammer, Fedosov, or even Rossy, Mansour, Kauffman, Arreola? These guys range from tough-ish journeymen, contenders, and maybe even a couple prospects. Of course we can cross Rossy off the list on April 22, but this is a match that should have happened 3 or 4 years ago.

As for current HW's I rate, obviously Klitschko, Fury, and Joshua seem to be the cream of the crop, with Wilder on the outside looking in mainly due to his aversion to taking any sort of risk. Povetkin would be there but he'll need to sort his abilities to pass a drug test. There are plenty of decent HW's right now, but until they stop fighting the Joseph Rabotte's of this world and start facing each other there is really no way to sort them. Could Ortiz beat Pulev? Heck could he beat Chisora or Wach? These shouldn't be what-if scenarios, there is no reason these matches aren't happening.

[candyslim]

Well I grant you he could be a little more active but the same criticism could be levelled at those listed that you mention, and there's no knowing how many of those might have fancied the job. I'm pretty sure Pulev wouldn't have done, although Chisora never shirks anyone.

Tony Thompson was decent enough to feature on your list and prior to his high-speed retreat, it could be argued Malik Scott was better than most of them. I guess Ortiz is of an age he wants a title shot rather than a chance to gain experience he doesn't need fighting the kind of average to decent top 10 - 20 fighters that the WBC seem to favour for their title defences

Don't forget despite his advancing years his arrival on the professional scene was comparatively recent. He should have made his move much earlier.

[punchoutsb]

Well I grant you he could be a little more active but the same criticism could be levelled at those listed that you mention, and there's no knowing how many of those might have fancied the job. I'm pretty sure Pulev wouldn't have done, although Chisora never shirks anyone.

Tony Thompson was decent enough to feature on your list and prior to his high-speed retreat, it could be argued Malik Scott was better than most of them. I guess Ortiz is of an age he wants a title shot rather than a chance to gain experience he doesn't need fighting the kind of average to decent top 10 - 20 fighters that the WBC seem to favour for their title defences

Don't forget despite his advancing years his arrival on the professional scene was comparatively recent. He should have made his move much earlier.

Pulev fought Klitschko, why would he be afraid of Luis Ortiz? Thompson was good enough to put on my list...about 5 years ago. The guy was 45/46 years old when Ortiz got him, right? He's been a pro for 7 years and really hasn't made any attempt to solidify himself aside from Bryant Jennings.

I won't even mention Malik Scott...he's never been better than most of anything. He's the definition of a bloated, boring, padded record. He should be fighting Derrick Rossy next; a win over Rossy would be one of his best results.

[candyslim]

It usually comes down to the risk/ reward balance. Obviously the ultimate goal of any boxer with pretensions to world-class, is to win the world title (a version of it, anyway) and this means choice of opponent is limited. Pulev fought Klitschko because he held the title, I doubt he'd have been interested were it a final eliminator. You're happy to berate Ortiz but I don't see Pulev as a shining example of a fighter wanting to keep active against top quality opposition.

You slate Malik Scott (fair comment) and Tony Thompson but you include Fedosov who's fought once since May 2015, Ustinov who's claim to fame is a win over a washed up David Tua and who hasn't fought this year, nor indeed last year.

Anyway I'm getting off the point which as I see it is that Ortiz or any other would-be-contender is fully entitled to fight whoever he wants and as frequently or infrequently as he wants. His lack of ambition or activity hurts nobody but himself (actually thanks to the corrupt governing bodies it may not adversely affect him at all, but that's another story) because he has no obligations to anyone outside his immediate circle.

It is totally unreasonable and dull witted, to apply the same standards to Ortiz or any other non-champion as should be applied to someone who holds a belt and calls himself a world champion. He is required to defend that belt at regular intervals against the best around interspersed with other challengers who are less formidable but still of a good standard.

Wilder has failed to abide by his obligations. Ortiz doesn't have any.

[punchoutsb]

It usually comes down to the risk/ reward balance. Obviously the ultimate goal of any boxer with pretensions to world-class, is to win the world title (a version of it, anyway) and this means choice of opponent is limited. Pulev fought Klitschko because he held the title, I doubt he'd have been interested were it a final eliminator. You're happy to berate Ortiz but I don't see Pulev as a shining example of a fighter wanting to keep active against top quality opposition.

You slate Malik Scott (fair comment) and Tony Thompson but you include Fedosov who's fought once since May 2015, Ustinov who's claim to fame is a win over a washed up David Tua and who hasn't fought this year, nor indeed last year.

Anyway I'm getting off the point which as I see it is that Ortiz or any other would-be-contender is fully entitled to fight whoever he wants and as frequently or infrequently as he wants. His lack of ambition or activity hurts nobody but himself (actually thanks to the corrupt governing bodies it may not adversely affect him at all, but that's another story) because he has no obligations to anyone outside his immediate circle.

It is totally unreasonable and dull witted, to apply the same standards to Ortiz or any other non-champion as should be applied to someone who holds a belt and calls himself a world champion. He is required to defend that belt at regular intervals against the best around interspersed with other challengers who are less formidable but still of a good standard.

Wilder has failed to abide by his obligations. Ortiz doesn't have any.

While I agree with many of your points it still doesn't change the fact that Ortiz is not fighting anyone. His obligation should be to earn a title shot and fighting Dave Allen and Derrick Rossy shouldn't be enough to do that...but that's boxings problem, not Ortiz's. Gifting title shots to unproven boxers who end up not being close to the top level of the sport allows lazy, unmotivated slightly better than average boxers like Ortiz to make these long runs where they are hailed as the best in the division while fighting Raphael Zumbano Love.

[candyslim]

No he isn't but I do believe that possible opponents saw how he handled the very useful and IIRC, unbeaten, Bryant Jennings and thought "Ortiz as an opponent? ... not bloody likely ! ". Whether Ortiz ' age is catching up with him, or maybe it's occurred to him that looking super impressive isn't necessarily a good career move, he looked laboured against the world and olympic running-backwards champion and also (unless he learns to get hit a lot less) the very endangered White Rhino.

I think you're being a little unfair to Ortiz because the way he's going he's not going to get a title shot, deserved or undeserved, until he is well and truly past being any kind of threat, and if I'm wrong and the WBC or one of the other organizations decide to give him an unearned title shot (yes almost impossible to imagine someone being gifted an unearned title shot I know - he said without even a ton, er I mean a trace of sarcasm) then putting aside your obvious disdain for him Punchy, can you honestly say he would be most undeserving beneficiary in the Hwt division even just this year?.

If he did get that shot I would give more chance of winning than any of Wilder's title challengers to date.

[punchoutsb]

No he isn't but I do believe that possible opponents saw how he handled the very useful and IIRC, unbeaten, Bryant Jennings and thought "Ortiz as an opponent? ... not bloody likely ! ". Whether Ortiz ' age is catching up with him, or maybe it's occurred to him that looking super impressive isn't necessarily a good career move, he looked laboured against the world and olympic running-backwards champion and also (unless he learns to get hit a lot less) the very endangered White Rhino.

I think you're being a little unfair to Ortiz because the way he's going he's not going to get a title shot, deserved or undeserved, until he is well and truly past being any kind of threat, and if I'm wrong and the WBC or one of the other organizations decide to give him an unearned title shot (yes almost impossible to imagine someone being gifted an unearned title shot I know - he said without even a ton, er I mean a trace of sarcasm) then putting aside your obvious disdain for him Punchy, can you honestly say he would be most undeserving beneficiary in the Hwt division even just this year?.

If he did get that shot I would give more chance of winning than any of Wilder's title challengers to date.

No sir, he would be a better defense than several of this years abysmal title challengers. Perhaps I am being hard or Ortiz, but no harder than I am on any of the other Heavies taking these sort of crap matchups. I originally gave Pulev a pass for his upcoming snoozer against Johnson since he had actually went up against Ustinov and Klitschko but obviously that would be hypocritical of me. I'm just sick and tired of supposed high level guys taking gimme fights and being proclaimed as the savior of the division without ever attempting to face a real challenge.

I've also got a bit of disdain for people who harp on (not speaking about you here either to be clear) about how "x" is the most avoided fighter and so on. Yes there are several fighters that are avoided by certain other fighters, but the thought that Ortiz has fought Thompson, Scott, Allen, and Rossy because all other Heavies are avoiding him because he beat post-Klitschko Jennings is a bit absurd.

[candyslim]

I do agree with you about the gimme fights but that's boxing these days. It's been a long time since the majority of fighters took risky fights as par for the course, and maybe we fans have to take some responsibility for that, being so quick to dismiss fighters after one or two losing fights. I mean nobody is expecting big things from Izuagbe Ugonoh now it seems to me, just because he lost a war with Breazeale that he came close to winning - the same Breazeale largely written off after losing to Joshua, and don't even whisper the name Charles Martin, to boxing fans his prospects for future success are such that he might as well have lost a shoot-out in the old west, as a modern day title fight.

Similarly Bryant Jennings has been written off after back-to-back losses, not least I suggest by Jennings himself, but I rated him quite highly and was very impressed by the number Ortiz did on him. Add that to the fact that he was a dominant force in the highly prestigious Cuban amateur scene with just a scattering of losses in what was it 300 or so amateur fights, I don't think the idea that fighters might not fancy taking him on for a relatively modest purse is in any way absurd.

Who needs him when you could fight Joey Rabotte ?