Hagler vs Leonard - 30 years on....

[Andrew]

I remember watching it and going in thinking Hagler got robbed but I was surprised that I thought Leonard won, I never scored it but thought Hagler started off way too slow and Leonard built up a handy lead

Hagler blew it for me by fighting in the wrong stance for the first couple of rounds,very strange decision that was.

Personally didn't think he did enough in the first 4 rounds.

[tobyh5]

Nice piece of fightnews.com

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/bob-aru ... ard-399594

[Anzi]

It wasn't racist at all,don't know why he said that.

How do you know ? I was at the Khan, Prescott fight and some racist hooligans, shouting racist crap, afterwards 2 muslim girls were abused by 2 punks, we jumped out the car and corrected them and was once at a Khan show were a massive gang of racists started shouting "where the pakis at", to which some of the pakistani's reacted, Khan has a lot of fans in britain but also has people who hate, some because of his Pakistani origin, some because of his life outside the ring and some because he calls fighters out who they feel he does not deserve to call out, as shown on these forums. At the end of the Day he won a Silver medal for this country and World titles in the pros, you can't take that away from him. lovers or haters ?

Because i was there,that's how i know.

thousands of people in a big arena your body could not cover every part could it ?

[Anzi]

I watched the Hagler v Leonard fight live at the Odean cinema, it was packed out, with Hagler and Leonard fans, plenty of banter and chants, both sets of fans very vocal, but as the fight got to half way the Hagler fans got less vocal, realising that Leonard was well ahead, around 8 or 9 Hagler landed a big punch as Leonard started to get tired, Hagler went for it, but then Leonard fought back with blistering combinations, this was the big moment in the fight, when Haglers fans new that Hagler was not going to stop Leonard, that Leonard was going to take Hagler's title.

[hitman_hatton1]

had a hagler-leonard fight poster on me bedroom wall for years.

close fight.

draw for me.

leonard 1-4, 6 & 11

hagler with the rest.

rd 9 is one of me favourite rds of all time.

[Matt W]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

[Syntax Error]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

This is exactly how I saw it.

I can't believe it was 30 years ago today.

[nobleart1978]

I think Hagler was just so arrogant about this fight. He should have looked at how Mugabi gave him problems but he rightly thought he was invincible due to his outstanding title reign. It hurts me to say it cos Hagler was a monster, but Leonard made him look silly at times. Hagler gave away the first four rounds. People go on about the ninth, but Leonard rallied of the ropes and pushed Hagler back to ring center. I have it 7-5 Leonard.

Harry Mullens' report in Boxing News a week later was terribly biased towards Hagler. But as Mullen was the editor I suppose nobody could proof read it and make it a more truthful report of a great fight.

[olij999]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

This is exactly how I saw it.

I can't believe it was 30 years ago today.

I agree with all of that. I had it 115-113 to Leonard at the time and on rewatching. Either way, a close fight - the Jo Jo Guerra card was way off. It also shows the importance of Leonard allegedly negotiating for a large ring and giving up some money in purse to Hagler (if indeed that story is true).

[Ezzard]

I went to see it at the Odeon in Birmingham. That night I thought Leonard won easily. I had it 117-111. But when I re-watched it the next day and had it 115-114 Leonard.

It felt to me like Ray was about to unravel at any point in the last 4 rounds. He looked likely to go at any moment. And despite what he said he could not have gone 15.

Hagler looked like he was wearing deep sea diving boots that night. And the snap in his punches just wasn't there.

Great tactics by Ray.

I don't remember it as a great fight though. It was tense and interesting but Leonard was there to win.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I went to see it at the Odeon in Birmingham. That night I thought Leonard won easily. I had it 117-111. But when I re-watched it the next day and had it 115-114 Leonard.

It felt to me like Ray was about to unravel at any point in the last 4 rounds. He looked likely to go at any moment. And despite what he said he could not have gone 15.

Hagler looked like he was wearing deep sea diving boots that night. And the snap in his punches just wasn't there.

Great tactics by Ray.

I don't remember it as a great fight though. It was tense and interesting but Leonard was there to win.

Leonard said something in an interview years later, saying Hagler had hurt him badly in the 10th I think it was, but that either he didn't see it, or he couldn't capitalise on it.

Still an incredible comeback by Leonard after so long out of the ring. Was certainly not a boring fight either, Leonard gave Hagler's big old dome a serious repaint in the 11th round. Although Hagler was never hurt, he got hit a lot in that fight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

Yeah, I hated Leonard for not giving him a rematch. He really humiliated hagler over it, said he'd give Hagler a rematch if he admitted that Leonard had won, knowing full well he would never concede. Leonard outsmarted Hagler before the fight, during it, and afterward. Hagler's stubbornness was his undoing in so many ways.

He wanted to prove he could concede advantages to Leonard, and still well, even trying to outbox him, allowing it to be 12 rounds, agreeing to the ring size and gloves. He was very foolish.

[Matt W]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

Yeah, I hated Leonard for not giving him a rematch. He really humiliated hagler over it, said he'd give Hagler a rematch if he admitted that Leonard had won, knowing full well he would never concede. Leonard outsmarted Hagler before the fight, during it, and afterward. Hagler's stubbornness was his undoing in so many ways.

He wanted to prove he could concede advantages to Leonard, and still well, even trying to outbox him, allowing it to be 12 rounds, agreeing to the ring size and gloves. He was very foolish.

Totally agree.

Mind you, one thing that does bother me is when people that say Leonard won at the negotiating table with all of the concessions he gained on ring size, rounds etc as if winning was some sort of con (I know that's not what you're saying, but some people do). Yes these things helped but Leonard had fought once in 5 years, had suffered a detached retina AND was moving up in weight to fight one of the best ever with no warm-up. It's absolutely incredible what Leonard did that night.

[Boxerbeetle]

This 12/15 round thing needs to be put to bed.

As Hagler had been stripped of his WBA & IBF titles, this fight was for the WBC belt.

The WBC had long since stopped having 15 round fights, so unless this fight was not going to be for a trinket (something I don't Leonard would have wanted) & just for the 'linear' title, it could never have been for 15 rounds.

I also find Hugh McIlvanney's assertion that anyone who scored it for Leonard was not objective & was dazzled by fact that he was achieving so much more than most thought he could.

Total hogwash IMO.

McIlvanney is just one of those people that thinks his opinion is a fact & try to browbeat those that have differing opinions.

I scored the fight for Leonard, but it was extremely close & I can understand why some folk would have scored it for Hagler, or maybe even a draw.

Yeah McIlvanney also couldn't make a case for Benn beating Eubank in their controversial 12 round draw.

Never really enjoyed reading the man and am surprised his book, basically of his fight reports, is so highly esteemed

I always had Leonard beating Halger. Hagler did some thing really weird, over the first six or seven, standing off like he didn't think Leonard was taking the rounds. He was far too casual in such an important fight. When he'd already felt he'd been robbed in the first Antiofermo fight. Hagler really did close strong and I'd have thought if it was a 15-rounder he would've been too much in the championship rounds. But he needed to fightlike he was in a 12-rounder. Which he didn't, due to early frustration and or lack of urgency.

I think McIlvanney's book is so highly esteemed because it is a collection of his fight reports. When you consider the tight turnaround he must have been facing to write some of the reports up before a print deadline, they are extraordinary.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

Yeah, I hated Leonard for not giving him a rematch. He really humiliated hagler over it, said he'd give Hagler a rematch if he admitted that Leonard had won, knowing full well he would never concede. Leonard outsmarted Hagler before the fight, during it, and afterward. Hagler's stubbornness was his undoing in so many ways.

He wanted to prove he could concede advantages to Leonard, and still well, even trying to outbox him, allowing it to be 12 rounds, agreeing to the ring size and gloves. He was very foolish.

Totally agree.

Mind you, one thing that does bother me is when people that say Leonard won at the negotiating table with all of the concessions he gained on ring size, rounds etc as if winning was some sort of con (I know that's not what you're saying, but some people do). Yes these things helped but Leonard had fought once in 5 years, had suffered a detached retina AND was moving up in weight to fight one of the best ever with no warm-up. It's absolutely incredible what Leonard did that night.

I think there's a lot of people who admired hagler, who just cannot give Leonard credit for the achievement. I can't think of another fighter who ever pulled off the same trick before or since.

What makes me laugh is the "yeah but Leonard was always in the gym" as if that makes up for having no competitive boxing in all the time he was out of the ring.

Even if he'd lost the fight, the fact it had been competitive would have been a huge achievement.

I reckon Leonard would have been competitive with Hagler at any time in his career, I doubt he would have won in Hagler's prime, but I think he'd have gone the distance. He was a tough SOB.

[Counter-puncher]

This 12/15 round thing needs to be put to bed.

As Hagler had been stripped of his WBA & IBF titles, this fight was for the WBC belt.

The WBC had long since stopped having 15 round fights, so unless this fight was not going to be for a trinket (something I don't Leonard would have wanted) & just for the 'linear' title, it could never have been for 15 rounds.

I also find Hugh McIlvanney's assertion that anyone who scored it for Leonard was not objective & was dazzled by fact that he was achieving so much more than most thought he could.

Total hogwash IMO.

McIlvanney is just one of those people that thinks his opinion is a fact & try to browbeat those that have differing opinions.

I scored the fight for Leonard, but it was extremely close & I can understand why some folk would have scored it for Hagler, or maybe even a draw.

Yeah McIlvanney also couldn't make a case for Benn beating Eubank in their controversial 12 round draw.

Never really enjoyed reading the man and am surprised his book, basically of his fight reports, is so highly esteemed

I always had Leonard beating Halger. Hagler did some thing really weird, over the first six or seven, standing off like he didn't think Leonard was taking the rounds. He was far too casual in such an important fight. When he'd already felt he'd been robbed in the first Antiofermo fight. Hagler really did close strong and I'd have thought if it was a 15-rounder he would've been too much in the championship rounds. But he needed to fightlike he was in a 12-rounder. Which he didn't, due to early frustration and or lack of urgency.

I think McIlvanney's book is so highly esteemed because it is a collection of his fight reports. When you consider the tight turnaround he must have been facing to write some of the reports up before a print deadline, they are extraordinary.

[Ezzard]

All good points. But looking back a few things bother me.

Firstly, Leonard should never have been given the fight. He should have beaten a contender first. Hearns' devastating 1 round KO of Shuler earned him the rematch.

Then of course the awful shenanigans that Leonard pulled after the fight and his post-Hagler career.

[jamesmcdonnell]

All good points. But looking back a few things bother me.

Firstly, Leonard should never have been given the fight. He should have beaten a contender first. Hearns' devastating 1 round KO of Shuler earned him the rematch.

Then of course the awful shenanigans that Leonard pulled after the fight and his post-Hagler career.

It's all about the fight. At the end of the day, Marvin wanted the money. Only reason it happened.

[Autobarn]

All good points. But looking back a few things bother me.

Firstly, Leonard should never have been given the fight. He should have beaten a contender first. Hearns' devastating 1 round KO of Shuler earned him the rematch.

Then of course the awful shenanigans that Leonard pulled after the fight and his post-Hagler career.

What, making Hearns face him closer to the middleweight limit than super middleweight (the titles they were contesting) in their rematch - and making Lalonde come down from light heavyweight to super middleweight and somehow both titles were on the line?

He definitely had a charmed life.

[Anzi]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

Yeah, I hated Leonard for not giving him a rematch. He really humiliated hagler over it, said he'd give Hagler a rematch if he admitted that Leonard had won, knowing full well he would never concede. Leonard outsmarted Hagler before the fight, during it, and afterward. Hagler's stubbornness was his undoing in so many ways.

He wanted to prove he could concede advantages to Leonard, and still well, even trying to outbox him, allowing it to be 12 rounds, agreeing to the ring size and gloves. He was very foolish.

Concede what advantages ? Leonard was out for about 3 years with a detached retina and had only one fight in 5 years, whilst Hagler had plenty of fights in that time, beating the likes of Hearns and Duran, Leonard was the much smaller man. The WBC had changed from 12 rounds to 15 rounds, it had nothing to do with Leonard, the WBC had already started to reduce the rounds, for safety reasons and the ring was a 20 ft standard ring, what larger ring ? Leonard could of had an Olympic size ring if he wanted, with regards to the claims that Leonard negotiated 12 oz gloves, that is false, because the fighters got to keep the gloves, which were 10 oz, the same as today's gloves for the middleweight division, also Leonard did offer Hagler a rematch, to which Hagler refused, Hagler would of retired soon anyway.

[stujones]

It is amazing though when you look at Hagler's Middleweight reign that at the time no one (apart from Leonard) saw how much slower Hagler was vs Mugabi. In hindsight he had visibly slowed considerably. Yes, some called it a bit sloppy and maybe he was lacking motivation - but actually his handspeed slowed and that's something that is an age thing.

[Counter-puncher]

Not just his hand speed, IMO his head movement had declined. The pre-title or early-title Hagler, I don't think Mugabi would be able to hit him with a bag of sand

[Anzi]

It is amazing though when you look at Hagler's Middleweight reign that at the time no one (apart from Leonard) saw how much slower Hagler was vs Mugabi. In hindsight he had visibly slowed considerably. Yes, some called it a bit sloppy and maybe he was lacking motivation - but actually his handspeed slowed and that's something that is an age thing.

Leonard was past his best as well, he was terrible in sparring before the fight, even got dropped, his lay off also affected him, but he was a showman, when he got in front of the crowd he performed, styles make fights and Leonard's style was all wrong for Hagler, Haglers best performances was against fighters who came for him, that's why Errol Bomber Graham wanted to fight him.

[Autobarn]

I've always scored it for Leonard, Hagler didn't do enough in the early rounds; I think he was so confident of beating Leonard he didn't show enough urgency until it was too late. Leonard made him fight his fight and thoroughly deserved the decision. He should have granted Hagler a rematch though.

Yeah, I hated Leonard for not giving him a rematch. He really humiliated hagler over it, said he'd give Hagler a rematch if he admitted that Leonard had won, knowing full well he would never concede. Leonard outsmarted Hagler before the fight, during it, and afterward. Hagler's stubbornness was his undoing in so many ways.

He wanted to prove he could concede advantages to Leonard, and still well, even trying to outbox him, allowing it to be 12 rounds, agreeing to the ring size and gloves. He was very foolish.

Concede what advantages ? Leonard was out for about 3 years with a detached retina and had only one fight in 5 years, whilst Hagler had plenty of fights in that time, beating the likes of Hearns and Duran, Leonard was the much smaller man. The WBC had changed from 12 rounds to 15 rounds, it had nothing to do with Leonard, the WBC had already started to reduce the rounds, for safety reasons and the ring was a 20 ft standard ring, what larger ring ? Leonard could of had an Olympic size ring if he wanted, with regards to the claims that Leonard negotiated 12 oz gloves, that is false, because the fighters got to keep the gloves, which were 10 oz, the same as today's gloves for the middleweight division, also Leonard did offer Hagler a rematch, to which Hagler refused, Hagler would of retired soon anyway.

Hagler had loads of miles. Almost double the number of pro fights that Leonard had. And his road to the top was a very difficult one, coming up as he did through the celebrated Philadelphia middleweight scene. And he'd taken huge shots from both Hearns and Mugabi. All of this I believe took its toll, and Leonard was able to steal,the fight with flurries while avoiding the very worse of Hagler's punches. Memorable fight especially in the rounds 9-12 exchanges. I always scored it for SRL but each time I watch it I'm less impressed by his work

[Autobarn]

It is amazing though when you look at Hagler's Middleweight reign that at the time no one (apart from Leonard) saw how much slower Hagler was vs Mugabi. In hindsight he had visibly slowed considerably. Yes, some called it a bit sloppy and maybe he was lacking motivation - but actually his handspeed slowed and that's something that is an age thing.

Absolutely. His sharpness was gone. And was it Leonard or Dundee who vowed to make Hagler pay for missing a hook and turning around 180% - as he'd already done vs Mugabi?

Shocking for such a consummate and well schooled pro to make such an amateur mistake as that as he did vs Mugabi, another admittedly very exciting fight.