Harry Greb vs. Ted "Kid" Lewis Prime against Prime

[scorpio83]

Who would win in their prime between Harry Greb and Ted "Kid" Lewis whom both had similar style? At middleweight, Harry Greb would out-swarming Ted "Kid" Lewis to win a unanimous decision in 15 rounds. What is your opinion?

[davie]

Without footage we can only go off records.
Ted was a welterweight and had few meaningful wins at middleweight.
Harry is is arguable no1 at middle weight, fought at higher weights.
He's raked higher, by pretty much everyone, even disregarding weight and he's ranked higher at 160 than Lewis is at 147

I think you'll struggle to find many argue against a Greb win and a one sided one at that

[Tomasino]

Greb by drubbing

[elmersalsa]

According to the records, Ted "Kid" Lewis, a top 100 ATG pound per pound great in my view, is not in the same class of one of the top 10 greatest boxers of all time.

Lewis was knocked out at 175lbs by the great Georges Carpentier, another top 100 ATG pound per pound fighter in a title bout. He wasn't a match for the French man. I can't imagine The Pittsburgh Windmill getting stopped by Carpentier in just one round.

Greb had much more success beating bigger men. Some of those big men were great or very, very good. I can't say that about "Kid" Lewis. According to all those facts, Greb wins by knockout or unanimous decision.

[punchoutsb]

Greb

[Crease]

Lewis was a Welterweight, Gren was a Middleweight vwho coukd stand up to Light Heavies.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Lewis was a Welterweight, Gren was a Middleweight vwho coukd stand up to Light Heavies.

Greb was a dominant light heavy.

[scorpio83]

Ted "Kid" Lewis won the British and European titles at middleweight after losing his world welterweight title, but I agree with all of you that Harry Greb have better resume than Lewis and win either by 15 round unanimous decision or late round knockouts. Had the match happen between them would be "The Fight of the Century" of the non-heavyweight fights outside of Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Roberto Duran, Leonard vs. Hearns and Leonard vs. Hagler.

[APerno]

No fight footage of Greb fighting - how can we evaluate him (not that 1920s fight footage would be all that enlightening anyway) - he looks good in this promotion vehicle circa 1925

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pf_P8ki-Y4

Here's a whole other argument: HARRY GREB "THE PITTSBURGH WINDMILL" VS STANLEY KETCHEL "THE MICHIGAN ASSASSIN"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5-qbIdCcgs

[Chuck1052]

Harry Greb probably was a better pound-for-pound fighter than Ted "Kid" Lewis. In addition, Greb, a middleweight, had a decided size and strength advantage over Lewis, a welterweight.

According to one newspaper article that I have read some years ago, Greb thought highly of Lewis.

- Chuck Johnston

[scorpio83]

Harry Greb probably was a better pound-for-pound fighter than Ted "Kid" Lewis. In addition, Greb, a middleweight, had a decided size and strength advantage over Lewis, a welterweight.

According to one newspaper article that I have read some years ago, Greb thought highly of Lewis.

- Chuck Johnston

They were both great swarmers and it obvious that Lewis thought Greb highly too.

[Chuck1052]

Harry Greb probably was a better pound-for-pound fighter than Ted "Kid" Lewis. In addition, Greb, a middleweight, had a decided size and strength advantage over Lewis, a welterweight.

According to one newspaper article that I have read some years ago, Greb thought highly of Lewis.

- Chuck Johnston

They were both great swarmers and it obvious that Lewis thought Greb highly too.

While being a very aggressivive swarmer, Harry Greb was very fast, hard to hit with a solid blow and constantly bouncing around the ring. Although Greb may not have had great footwork in a conventional sense, there was a great deal of mention about him being very nimble on his feet.

- Chuck Johnston

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

On the plus side for TKL, in 1917 he was able to get two newspaper decisions against Mike O'Dowd (to one points loss*) in the same year that O'Dowd went on to win the Middleweight title, and only a few months before Greb himself was only able to get a draw (newspaper) against the same. So if he'd ever have had even a chance it would've been in that year (where records suggest Greb was just starting to come into his prime). Around the time he was having at least some trouble with the slightly smaller Mike Gibbons and the much smaller Soldier Bartfield. Less and less of a chance as the years go by after that.

Of course if there was any footage we could say for sure either way, but it wouldn't surprise me if the smaller guys who could get closer to matching Greb for speed would give him more trouble than the larger and more lumbering types. Still 8 times out of ten you'd fancy Greb to find a way.

[klompton]

I think Lewis' best chance is to get a young Greb about 1915. Beyond that I think Greb beats him even pre prime. Its true that Greb struggled with Bartfields awkward style early on but he ultimately won their series handily. Lewis had a lot more inconclusive bouts with Bartfield than Greb did. He struggled more with Gibbons than Greb did. And while he notched wins against ODowd the newspapers were split down the middle as to who won Greb's bout with ODowd and that was in ODowd's backyard after making 155 pounds (he had been fighting regularly in the 160s and low 170s but was over eager to make 158 to win the title, this left him weak and uncharacteristically less aggressive and he still managed to win half of newspaper decisions in ODowds hometown). ODowd refused several times to rematch Greb after that. Lewis did not have the same compunction about facing Lewis in return bouts. In addition to this Lewis struggled with guys like Ratner and Willie KO Brennan who Greb dominated every time out in multiple fights around the same time. Keep in mind that Lewis' success against guys like ODowd and Bartfield is deceptive when comparing what he might do with a middleweight like Greb because of their size. While Lewis, a WW, did well against ODowd and Bartfield, those two fighters were very small MWs. They fell into that category for the time that eventually necessitated a JMW division. Both guys could weigh in the low 150s and even high 140s as in the case of Bartfield. Greb could carry 170 pounds comfortably and compete with even large heavyweights of the era. And its not like that extra weight slowed him down either. He was considered incredibly fast, often compared to the speed of a bantamweight and his level of activity was higher than anyone else of the era. So two advantages that Lewis might be expected to bring into the ring are gone against Greb. So the question is how he would have beaten him? He was an aggressive type fighter and not awkward so he would have had to either outpunch Greb, outmuscle him, or knock him out, or hurt him enough that Greb became much more defensive and much less aggressive. I cant see any of these scenarios playing out. Greb was incredibly fast, durable, strong, and active. Thats a heck of a thing to deal with if you are his size, if you arent its worse. Bartfield was awkward and used dirty tactics like the backhand punch and kidney punch which were illegal in most places by that point. It took Greb time to figure him out but he ultimately did. ODowd was a great fighter but he never fought the best version of Greb much less the best Greb had to offer in 1918.

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

I had a long reply to that I was working on before getting signed out of boxrec

It was mostly in agreement while trying to work together a case for Lewis at least having some hope specifically in 1917. I am retracting the phrase "Less and less of a chance as the years go by after that" - really it would have been up to 1917 or no chance at all for any kind of "prime-on-nearly prime" win for Lewis.

However looking at the original post, he specifies 15 rounds which I wasn't banking on at all. I was really only thinking of a first time meeting over ten rounds that Lewis could have a remote possibility of using his own dirty tactics, better than average (at WW) handspeed, and greater experience in order to fiddle out a close even debatable win. Over 15 rounds that "remote possibility" fades into pretty much nothingness. And yeah, in a series of fights even over 6 and ten rounds, Greb figures him out too and dominates anyway.