Jess Willard vrs Jack Johnson/100th Anniversary

[APerno]

Just want to say it once out loud - I have always thought it the height of silly to believe that Johnson waited 26 rounds (in the Cuban heat) to 'throw the Willard fight' - that makes no sense - they say Dempsey threw his first fight with Fireman Jim Flynn - maybe, maybe not, but if he did at least he had the good sense to 'go down' in the first round - not the 26th.

[Caractacus]

Im not a Doctor,but I think it would be safe to assume
that maybe Jack Johnson may have been in a state of denial after loosing his Heavyweight Championship belt
to a big Palooka from Kansas no less.
(De-Nile aint just a river in Egypt)

[Caractacus]

Here is a link to a really informative article from 1990 with photographs on the history of the Oriental Park Racetrack at Havana Cuba
(which opened in 1915 and closed in 1967)
The huge portico that was at the entrance to the race track is now a warehouse for an automotive company.
Scroll down about halfway down the web page to read the text in the King's English.


http://www.thecubanhistory.com/2013/12/ ... park-fotos

I wonder when Mike Tyson was in Cuba some years ago,if he asked to be taken to see the site of the fight?
and since the travel restrictions have been removed going to Cuba,how many boxing fans
have gone to see it and whats there for them to see ?
a Historical marker at least ?
All that is left of the clubhouse and casino
a auto parts store and heavy industrial equipment now occupies.
The one-mile oval track has now been encased under concrete but the out-line of the track can still be seen from satelitte photos.

[Kalan]

Why would the length of the fight give people time to negotiate Johnson's surrender??? Were negotiations going on in a back room as the fight was taking place??

Of course not. But the documents weren't going to be delivered to Johnson until he filled his part of the bargain by losing to Willard. Feeling he might be screwed a compromise was worked out. His wife and lawyers could view the documents as soon as the fight started. When they were examined and found to be in order his wife would have copies in her possession and signal Johnson. If he won the fight the agreement was nullified.

Proof is in Johnson's conditioning for the fight. For years his weight for that fight was listed as 232, which is very fat for him and a far cry from the strapping 208-pound perfectly conditioned specimen who KO'd Jeffries... Johnson didn't train and was really fat because was he knew he was going to lose the fight anyway. Further proof is the way he took the 10-count.. His knees were up in the air and he shaded his eyes from the sun with his forearm as the count was tolled.. A knocked out fighter doesn't shade his eyes from the sun.. He's either stretched or trying to beat the count -- not relaxing like it's a Sunday afternoon.

[APerno]

Sorry Kalan but that theory takes Occam's Razor out back and beats it to death.

[Kalan]

It's not a theory... Johnson got exactly what he was after... Everything he wanted as the history of Leavenworth Prison tells us. Although a fugitive for many years, he He served only eight months in Leavenworth and became the Athletic Director, supervising track meets, baseball games, and Boxing... He was also allowed to tend to his business interests and fight professional fights in prison... He received very good treatment in turn for giving up the title voluntarily to Willard.

[Caractacus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZVlsLs9Eo

[APerno]

CW argues he got that deal for taking the fight not for throwing it, but that is probably bogus too.

The likely scenario: once Johnson lost he was no longer a threat; the government no longer had reason to over prosecute the charges and sought to rid themselves of the matter without facing unnecessary criticism, thus the lenient sentence.

As far as Johnson's prison treatment goes that may well have been an individual decision/act, not a governmental one; they say that Johnson often ate dinner with the warden and his family, in the warden's home; he purportedly was a big fight fan.

[Kalan]

You think so huh? I don’t, and here’s why.

Given the racial atmosphere during his boxing career—the aughts, teens, and twenties of the 20th Century—no warden would be allowed to treat a notorious "negro" (a pejorative term used for black people up through the 1950's) prisoner with such deference -- especially a black man who fled from justice and was a fugitive from justice for many years. The consequences for such violations and disrespect for the law by a black man during that period were substantial.

Nevertheless, the negotiated documents Johnson had in his possession, had they been violated, could have been turned over to the media at any point. There were numerous confidentiality clauses. Johnson was allowed to disclose the fact that the documents existed, due to certain laws on the books. He was not allowed to make them public for as long as the agreements were adhered to.

However, given the shortening of his sentence, the fact no consequences were ever imposed for his flight from justice, and his special privileges granted while in prison, my conclusion is those documents actually existed. Johnson’s loss to Willard was a product of those agreements. There are many other factors that give credence to Johnson’s revelations.

The fact that Jack Johnson—described by many historians as the greatest of all Heavyweight Champions—would defend a valuable property like the Heavyweight Championship of the World in such poor physical condition... The fact that Johnson was unmarked after 26 rounds of Heavyweight Championship fisticuffs... The fact the right hand “KO punch” Willard threw cannot actually be observed making serious concussive contact with Johnson’s jaw... The fact Willard described the KO shot as “an uppercut”... The fact Johnson shaded his eyes from the sun during the count when he was supposed to be out cold... All those factors reinforce Johnson’s version of events surrounding that fight.

[Kalan]

I would like to make several observations about the above propaganda video... They have a voice simulating Johnson talking to Willard in a low pitched southern drawl, "you're not even supposed to be standing." Johnson did not speak in a drawl -- or in rhymes such as Muhammad Ali did, but this propaganda video has him saying in a southern drawl, "Mr. Willard, you're big and tall -- and I'm going to make you fall" and has Johnson remarking on how tough Willard is and so forth. Johnson never spoke like that. He spoke like a college professor without a hint of a southern accent. He did not have a low pitch or drawl to his voice whatsoever, but this video is dealing in stereotypes.

Secondly... Johnson never appeared to be tired as the video claims. He flurried whenever he wanted to. At 5:40 of the video a voice is saying "Johnson stands flatfooted. Willard begins to score, spotting openings." Only Willard isn't scoring. Then, as Johnson attacks landing several head shots and Willard grabs him, the propagandist says, "Johnson shrewdly holds on."

3rd point. The hardest punch to land on a master boxer is a right hand from long range.. You can see the shot all the way.. In the 26th Johnson sets out to tank the fight.. Johnson invites a right hand at 9:46 of the video.. The first right doesn't get there, but he doesn't try to counter or anything.. He invites another right.. He looks the loaded punch all the way in.. It comes close enough to fake a KO. He does a gentle pratfall to the canvas without allowing his head to bounce off or hit the canvas like it does with an unconscious boxer.. His knees are up and his forearm is over his face. Several seconds into the count Johnson lies his legs flat while still maintaining his forearm over his face to shade the sun which he does for the entire count. A fully conscious person can walk and chew gum at the same time. These actions are little clues Johnson deliberately left at the scene to let the most astute viewers know "I faked this KO" while still doing a credible enough acting job to be convincing -- and uphold his end of the bargain.

4th point. The video shows a still photo of Johnson moving his forearm into place to shade the sun, but it's not there yet so they point out his forearm is NOT shading his eyes at that particular instant.. If I punch you, a still photo may show the punch in flight. It's not touching you yet. Right after the still photo Johnson moves his forearm into place and it shades his eyes for the rest of the count.

[klompton]

As usual Kalan you are wrong on several points. Its true that in some of the recordings of Johnsons voice he had a very educated sounding dialect but this was an affectation. In the earliest tecording of his voice he has a southern accent which is to expected having been raised poor in southern Texas. Secondly, in the unedited version of Willard-Johnson you can see that Johnson is getting worn down rapidly by about a round or two before the knockout. By that point he is sweating profusely, his legs are weaker to the point that they can be seen shaking at times, hes much less mobile, slower, and Willard is rapidly closing the distance whereas earlier in the fight Johnson was handling Willard and didnt exhibit any of these tell tale signs of fatigue. You can see in the film that Johnson isnt shading his eyes and that even after the count it takes Johnson several minutes to recover and requires assistance from his handlers. Johnson didnt tank this fight. In fact I think he fought one of the best fights of his career but his age combined with Willards size and strength and the fact that Willard stuck to a heady gameplan designed to wear Johnson out over the long haul worked against Johnsons brilliance and he simply could not overcome those decifits.

[APerno]

As always we will have to agree to disagree - I just can't wrap my head around a fighter going 26 rounds to throw a fight - but anyway regarding wardens - (especially before the Civil Rights Act of '64 and the criminal rights decisions of the Warren Court) prison wardens held almost unchecked institutional authority over their prisons, often running them like personal fiefdoms; some created a living hell, while others promoted reform; I would argue that there was little governmental oversight at the time.

[Caractacus]

That was New York City born Shakespearen actor Brock Peters who did the voice of Jack Johnson there
(and who also played Jack Johnson for the road tour of the play THE GREAT WHITE HOPE during the late 1960's)
as a matter of fact I had a thread several years ago were
it linked up to various video's were you could hear Jack Johnson speak,
even a link to one of the surviving discs he made shortly after his win of Jeffries in 1910
for the Viagraph studios (the film is believed lost but one of the 2 discs recording survives
that were also sold commercially)
Jack Johnson did have originally a southern drawl like George Foreman (born at Possum Ridge Texas)
but sounded slightly higher in tone.

[Caractacus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjK6L4kQwKo

[APerno]

I wanted to share this passage from Streible on Johnson-Jeffries but didn't think it worth starting a new thread -

From: Fight Pictures, 'A History of Boxing and Early Cinema,' Dan Streible

‘In 1921, when Chicago police permitted the Dempsey-Carpentier fight pictures to be screened, they were forced to grant a permit for the same theater to show Johnson-Jeffries pictures. As Juli Jones Jr. noted, the latter had been “cut and doctored so much” they looked “ordinary” next to the new Dempsey film. The worn print also revealed that the Johnson-Jeffries Fight had been watched often during the years it was contraband. The Tribune movie columnist Mae Tinee also criticized the print quality but found the viewing “more exciting” than Dempsey-Carpentier. She did not describe the audience, except to quip that the air in the crowded Star Theater was “democratic with orders.” ‘

Great Book: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss ... rly+Cinema

[Chuck1052]

Why do people cook up such unbelievable conspiracy theories? On this thread, a certain prolific poster created the most unbelievable conspiracy theory about the bout between Jess Willard and Jack Johnson that I have ever seen. For sure, the theory cannot be supported by any of the facts at hand.

- Chuck Johnston

[Kalan]

This is not a conspiracy theory... Conspiracies happens all the time and they aren't theories when they happen... You didn't address a single fact.

All the facts line up with Johnson's version of events that he faked the KO... particularly these 11 points.

Willard never troubled Johnson for 25 rounds.. Johnson's face was not beaten up.. Willard was not landing telling blows on Johnson or breaking him down.. Johnson's legs were not shaking like Klompton claims.. Willard DID throw a long, loaded, lead right -- which is a VERY difficult shot to catch a master boxer with, but happens to be the perfect shot to fake a KO.. Johnson appeared to be inviting that punch and he looked the punch all the way in.. It was easy to see because it was loaded.. The punch did not appear to make concussive contact.. Johnson fell rather gently to the canvas and his head DID NOT BOUNCE on the canvas which happens to an unconscious boxer (Khan-Canelo).. There is no explanation as to why Johnson would suddenly relax his legs, about 7 seconds after being hit, while maintaining his forearm over his face to shade his eyes from the sun.. It's easier t see on this video link, because the other videos don't pop up to obscure your view of Johnson shading his eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZVlsLs9Eo

[Kalan]

BTW... The video is sped up to be faster then real time...almost like a Charlie Chaplin movie.

[Kalan]

BTW... One piece of evidence that proves the “Great Johnson Tank Job” as much as ANY piece of evidence comes at 2:56 of Caractacus’s video above.

The agreement was, BOTH boxers put their gloves on in full view of the other’s team IN THE RING. As you can plainly see NEITHER COMBATANT WRAPPED THEIR HANDS FOR A 45-ROUND HEAVYWEIGHT FIGHT... That helped insure NEITHER BOXER would throw heavy bombs that could damage their hands or KO their opponent... and neither did. The so-callked KO punch was a real PHONY that didn’t make good contact.

NOBODY has EVER produced a still photo showing Willard's long, loaded right – a punch that master boxer Jack Johnson could see all the way in, having boxed professionally for over 20 years as a highly praised defensive master – landing on Jack Johnson’s jaw.

In Jess Willard’s next fight (after his NO-DECISION exhibition with Moran), Jack Dempsey made certain to wrap his hands like crazy. Dempsey threw big bombs throughout the fight, smashing Willard and battering and crushing the HELL out of Willard’s face (Jess was no master like Johnson and couldn’t defend himself well). By not wrapping their fists, both Johnson and Jess Willard insured that this would be a boxing match—favoring the master boxer—and that Johnson could fake a KO punch whenever he received the signal from his wife that she had possession of all the documents and that they were all in order.

Read Jack Johnson’s autobiography. He goes into great detail in his confession of throwing this fight and names all the parties involved in the tank job. He was never sued for defamation -- or he could have revealed evidence in the form of the documents, which otherwise he couldn't make public.

[APerno]

I was wondering about the lack of tape as well - it might be that their hands were wrapped, but with a flesh colored wrapping ( but not much of it) - I watched it over and over but couldn't tell if there was an 'ace bandage' around their hands or not; certainly no wrappings (white tape) like fighters today.

[Kalan]

They both used flesh colored wrapping to match their race and coloring...and extremely non-bulky wraps at that...

[APerno]

I am glad I could amuse - a white man and a black man are going to be closer in hue then a white man's skin compared to 'white tape.' - thus my use of the phrase 'flesh colored' as in the color of a classic 'ace bandage' (tan to light brown) - either way it is hard to see, but there might well be something covering their knuckles - but it is not white tape, it looks more cloth like.

[Kalan]

You possibly need corrective lenses or reading glasses APerno... The film is very grainy I realize -- but it's still plain to see they had no Ace Bandages or hand wraps of any sort on their hands... Even if hand wraps match your skin color perfectly (unlikely) they add bulk, so you definitely could see them... Johnson may have had clear latex or neoprene gloves that add zero bulk or weight to your hand -- it's very hard to discern that with the grainy footage, I'm not sure what advantage that would have given Johnson...possibly to keep his hands from sweating up the glove under the hot sun??? I'm pretty sure Willard had nothing on his hands.

If I'm not getting wrapped, and my opponent isn't getting wrapped, I'm not putting neoprene or anything between my knuckles and the inside of that glove. At least you're going to make bone on bone contact when you land a good one if you have no extra knuckle padding. With your hands not protected properly it's a little like a bare knuckle fist fight and you've been in those. You're not thinking about breaking your hand. You're trying to break somebody's head. That's because you weren't a pro when you got into fist fights. If you've ever hurt your hand a little bit you pay close attention to your wrappings.

One thing I'll note is bare knuckle boxers fought off the rear foot... And many of the very early Queensberry boxers also fought off the rear foot a lot.. With the smaller gloves and the wrapping of hands being a more limited science during 1892-1910 they couldn't afford to wing them.. When guys like Dempsey started trying to wrap their hands to perfection, punchers got off their back foot and started swinging with a vengeance.

[Caractacus]

Boxing gloves back then were stuffed with horse hair,so maybe they didnt even need to wrap hands to protect them (the hands that is) ?

[Caractacus]

-Attention !- HOT OFF THE PRESS !
-The Fight by Rounds
(April.05.1915)
(also scroll over to page 4 on the right to read the rest of the newspaper round-by-round coverage)


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 3527&hl=en