Sonny Liston

[Ricky_]

Just looking at some stats on Liston and he has some crazy physical attributes.

How does a man who is 6 ft 1 in height have an 84" reach?

84" is right on 7ft. 85" is as big as i think i've seen but that's the reach of Tyson Fury (6ft 9) and Valuev (7ft) so is pretty standard with reach approx matching their height.

Looking at pictures of Sonny i'm wondering if perhaps his stats are somewhat mythical, surely he would look almost deformed with arms reaching past his knees when stood with his hands by his side?

It's also claimed he holds a record of having had a 15" fist, larger than any heavyweight champion, greater than any of the superheavyweights we see in the modern era.


Was Sonny Liston a freak of nature or is there a bit of old-fashioned record keeping going on?

[orbtastic]

You've only got to look at pictures of him to see he's somewhat of a freak of nature. He has fists like hams, look at all the photos of him, his hands/fists dwarf normal sized peoples'

[orbtastic]

I think Max Baer had a reach of around 82" inches and was "only" around 6'2" in height.

[Ambling Alp II]

Another thing to consider when you measure reach like that is that you are measuring across a person's shoulders. Liston had a wide shoulders which would make his reach longer when measured. Even so, he certainly had long arms.

[Controversial]

I do wonder how true his reach stats were, its not uncommon for fighters to exaggerate these things.

[Kalan]

I do wonder how true his reach stats were, its not uncommon for fighters to exaggerate these things.

It's not uncommon for Boxrec.com to exaggerate these things... You can look at all the boxing magazines and publications throughout the 1950's, 60's, and 70's when Liston actually fought, and they'll all list his reach as 81" ... That's what I've always seen his reach listed as all my life until Boxrec decided to change it... They also decided to give Gene Tunney 2 losses for a stretch... Now they're back to giving him 1 loss so maybe they'll go back to Liston's real stats.

Tyson Fury's reach is really 85" which is probably the longest of any Heavyweight Champion.

[Controversial]

I do wonder how true his reach stats were, its not uncommon for fighters to exaggerate these things.

It's not uncommon for Boxrec.com to exaggerate these things... You can look at all the boxing magazines and publications throughout the 1950's, 60's, and 70's when Liston actually fought, and they'll all list his reach as 81" ... That's what I've always seen his reach listed as all my life until Boxrec decided to change it... They also decided to give Gene Tunney 2 losses for a stretch... Now they're back to giving him 1 loss so maybe they'll go back to Liston's real stats.

Tyson Fury's reach is really 85" which is probably the longest of any Heavyweight Champion.

To be fair I've seen it listed as 84" in many places over the years, not just on boxrec.

[Kalan]

I've read every Ring and Boxing Illustrated magazine throughout Liston's career... His reach was generally listed as 81" but it was sometimes hyped.

Fore sure I've seen Liston's reach listed as 84" on fight hype posters trying to make him out to be a monster... I frequently see different listings for heights and reaches from writers and promoters who want to exaggerate stats... That's how his fist size grew from 12" to 15" Liston had very large hands to be sure.. But I've seen hams and he didn't have hams.. His fists did not look monstrous or unreal.. He was a 215 pound man and his dimensions for reach and fist size were bigger than most men of that size, but within a normal range. I'm sure he would have done well in the bare knuckle era.

[Controversial]

I've read every Ring and Boxing Illustrated magazine throughout Liston's career... His reach was generally listed as 81" but it was sometimes hyped.

Fore sure I've seen Liston's reach listed as 84" on fight hype posters trying to make him out to be a monster... I frequently see different listings for heights and reaches from writers and promoters who want to exaggerate stats... That's how his fist size grew from 12" to 15" Liston had very large hands to be sure.. But I've seen hams and he didn't have hams.. His fists did not look monstrous or unreal.. He was a 215 pound man and his dimensions for reach and fist size were bigger than most men of that size, but within a normal range. I'm sure he would have done well in the bare knuckle era.

Yeah that's what I was saying, it isn't just boxrec claiming this. Fighters/promoters will often try to get a mental edge by claiming all sorts of things.

[Ambling Alp II]

I checked a couple of photos of tale of tape for two of Liston's fights. One was against Ali and the other against Patterson. Both had his reach at 84 inches.

[Controversial]

I checked a couple of photos of tale of tape for two of Liston's fights. One was against Ali and the other against Patterson. Both had his reach at 84 inches.

Yep but that doesn't make it true.

[Cojimar 1946]

In the Martin fight his reach was given as 80 1/2 inches which seems more plausible.

[Ambling Alp II]

I checked a couple of photos of tale of tape for two of Liston's fights. One was against Ali and the other against Patterson. Both had his reach at 84 inches.

Yep but that doesn't make it true.

True. Then again, you could say that for any listing for anybody.

[Kalan]

True. Then again, you could say that for any listing for anybody.

Of course you need to ask yourself if the particular stat makes sense or seems highly exaggerated.

I wondered about Nicholas Walters reach of 73" when it was given before the Donaire fight... I thought "whoa baby! That's longer than Mayweather - a tremendous reach for a featherweight." But looking at his arm length and jab, the dimension fit the billing.

Same with Bryant Jennings who's reach is listed as 84" and he's only 6'3" tall.. I don't think it's exaggerated... He doesn't have a jab at all because he doesn't have the experience, skill, coaching, or whatever he's missing - but he has a potentially great asset in his reach.. He's got gorilla arms.. Jennings needs to take into consideration the talent and experience of his last opponent... No need to can your career cuz you lost to Luis Ortiz.

[Controversial]

I checked a couple of photos of tale of tape for two of Liston's fights. One was against Ali and the other against Patterson. Both had his reach at 84 inches.

Yep but that doesn't make it true.

True. Then again, you could say that for any listing for anybody.

Yes I wouldn't be surprised if most were inaccurate.

[APerno]

Another thing to consider when you measure reach like that is that you are measuring across a person's shoulders. Liston had a wide shoulders which would make his reach longer when measured. Even so, he certainly had long arms.

Alp - The way they measured reach, across the shoulders, really isn't the best way to measure the advantage. I believe as of late, they have tried a different approach, but I am not sure how they do it; do you know of an alternative (recent) method?

[Kalan]

The real measure of reach is from finger tip to finger tip... you lean your chest against a wall and reach out as far as you can from a perpendicular wall you're touching.. Somebody holds their thumbnail there and you measure up to it.. Your reach is generally 2 to 4 inches longer than your height -- but some people have much longer or shorter wingspans for their height -- such as Liston and Marciano..

Marciano's reach was 67" ...Liston was 2" taller than Marciano but his reach of 81" was 14 inches longer... Sonny went: 6'1" X 215 -- Rocky went: 5'11" X 184... They kept Rocky away from big Heavyweights -- Patterson too for the most part... The Liston match-up was probably inevitable - if delayed for few years.

[Ambling Alp II]

Another thing to consider when you measure reach like that is that you are measuring across a person's shoulders. Liston had a wide shoulders which would make his reach longer when measured. Even so, he certainly had long arms.

Alp - The way they measured reach, across the shoulders, really isn't the best way to measure the advantage. I believe as of late, they have tried a different approach, but I am not sure how they do it; do you know of an alternative (recent) method?

It really is amazing that is how it was (and still is sometimes ) done. Shoulders to finger tips tells you more. Liston would still have really long arms but they wouldn't have seemed quite as long.

[Tony1244]

I remember reading that when Ali was blinded in Ali-Liston 1, he used his reach to keep out of the way until he could see again. Curious, if Liston's reach was 4'' longer.

Measuring reach is kind of like measuring waist, you can get different results. Were the arms completely parallel? You can lean one way or the other. Just like with the waist; is the tummy in our out? Where exactly is the tape measure in both measurements?

[Kalan]

Ambler says... "It really is amazing that is how it was (and still is sometimes ) done. Shoulders to finger tips tells you more. Liston would still have really long arms but they wouldn't have seemed quite as long."

I remember reading that when Ali was blinded in Ali-Liston 1, he used his reach to keep out of the way until he could see again. Curious, if Liston's reach was 4'' longer.

Measuring reach is kind of like measuring waist, you can get different results. Were the arms completely parallel? You can lean one way or the other. Just like with the waist; is the tummy in our out? Where exactly is the tape measure in both measurements?

That's why you measure fingertip to fingertip with your chest pressed against a wall.. It gives you a solid number that's not open to interpretation.. If you measure knuckle to knuckle, or measure arm length -- you get different lengths depending on who's doing the measurements.

The reasons fingertip to fingertip is valid??? ... Your clavicles serve as mobile struts between the shoulder blade and the sternum or breastbone. There are two clavicles or collarbones, one on the left and one on the right. Clavicles vary greatly in size for different fighters, depending on the width of your shoulders.. When you fully extend a jab or straight right your clavicle is adding fully to your reach and range -- and to a minor degree, so is the girth of your shoulder.. You're not supposed to, but you can also extend your fingers on a left jab or a right jab.. Almost no referee will warn you for that because it's difficult to see -- so you curve your fingers slightly and it adds to your range as you crack your shot to the face..

Holmes and many other boxers would crack you around the nose and eyes with upper jabs that have a bit of finger lash to them. Technically this is back handing but it's almost never called. Anyway, when you measure knuckle to knuckle you don't get a consistent number but fingertip to fingertip, chest against a wall you do. When you measure across the back any number of things can distort your measurement.

[Ricky_]

I do wonder how true his reach stats were, its not uncommon for fighters to exaggerate these things.

It's not uncommon for Boxrec.com to exaggerate these things... You can look at all the boxing magazines and publications throughout the 1950's, 60's, and 70's when Liston actually fought, and they'll all list his reach as 81" ... That's what I've always seen his reach listed as all my life until Boxrec decided to change it... They also decided to give Gene Tunney 2 losses for a stretch... Now they're back to giving him 1 loss so maybe they'll go back to Liston's real stats.

Tyson Fury's reach is really 85" which is probably the longest of any Heavyweight Champion.

To be fair I've seen it listed as 84" in many places over the years, not just on boxrec.

Boxrec have Fury at 85".

Also Valuev had a reach of 85", so i would guess it's a joint record held by both.


Mayweather is a good example of an abnormally long reach. He has a 6ft reach but is only 5ft 7.5".

[punchoutsb]

It's not uncommon for Boxrec.com to exaggerate these things... You can look at all the boxing magazines and publications throughout the 1950's, 60's, and 70's when Liston actually fought, and they'll all list his reach as 81" ... That's what I've always seen his reach listed as all my life until Boxrec decided to change it... They also decided to give Gene Tunney 2 losses for a stretch... Now they're back to giving him 1 loss so maybe they'll go back to Liston's real stats.

Tyson Fury's reach is really 85" which is probably the longest of any Heavyweight Champion.

To be fair I've seen it listed as 84" in many places over the years, not just on boxrec.

Boxrec have Fury at 85".

Also Valuev had a reach of 85", so i would guess it's a joint record held by both.


Mayweather is a good example of an abnormally long reach. He has a 6ft reach but is only 5ft 7.5".

Julius Long's reach is listed at 90" if you count the interim WBA Oceania heavyweight title as a legitimate HW title

[Ricky_]

To be fair I've seen it listed as 84" in many places over the years, not just on boxrec.

Boxrec have Fury at 85".

Also Valuev had a reach of 85", so i would guess it's a joint record held by both.


Mayweather is a good example of an abnormally long reach. He has a 6ft reach but is only 5ft 7.5".

Julius Long's reach is listed at 90" if you count the interim WBA Oceania heavyweight title as a legitimate HW title

7 foot 6 inches?

[punchoutsb]

Boxrec have Fury at 85".

Also Valuev had a reach of 85", so i would guess it's a joint record held by both.


Mayweather is a good example of an abnormally long reach. He has a 6ft reach but is only 5ft 7.5".

Julius Long's reach is listed at 90" if you count the interim WBA Oceania heavyweight title as a legitimate HW title

7 foot 6 inches?

That's what it's listed as. He's a legit 7+ feet tall (seen him listed as 7'1 and 7'2) so not unbelievable.

[Wales]

Boxrec have Fury at 85".

Also Valuev had a reach of 85", so i would guess it's a joint record held by both.


Mayweather is a good example of an abnormally long reach. He has a 6ft reach but is only 5ft 7.5".

Julius Long's reach is listed at 90" if you count the interim WBA Oceania heavyweight title as a legitimate HW title

7 foot 6 inches?

7foot 6 inches .... like fishermans tales some of these listings now