Jess Willard vrs Jack Johnson/100th Anniversary

[Kalan]

Reportedly Jack Johnson had tried to bet $10,000 on himself before the fight too.

It was a difficult fight for Johnson I think,because he was mainly a defensive fighter,
and when he did go on the offense,he could'nt just rush in and over welm Willard
because of Willard's size,like he could with Tommy Burns,Stanley Ketchel,Fireman Jim Flynn.

Johnson was a lot bigger and stronger than 187-pound Dempsey.. Dempsey man-handled Willard.. Unfortunately for Willard, the Dempsey fight WAS on the up-and-up and Dempsey smashed Willard around like an over-sized punching bag.. Willard was such an inept boxer Dempsey couldn't miss him with heavily loaded swings.. Willard was probably the worst boxer who ever "won" a Heavyweight Title and he wasn't anxious to defend it... So he didn't for over 4 years.

Johnson had such an easy time with Willard that he laughed at the distressed amateur... I guess you haven't read the round-by-round account.. The master boxer had to slack way off for fear of knocking big Jess out and violating his end of the bargain to let Willard win the fight... It wasn't a tough fight for Johnson as you can plainly see in the 26th round of the first video you posted.. Just before the fake KO Johnson grabbed Willard and jerked him around like a ragdoll.. NOT the actions of an elderly opponent who's weakened and ready to go.. Johnson fought for MANY years after this fight and beat Heavyweight Contender Pat Lester at the age of 48.. Normally that would have qualified him for a World Title Fight - but no black fighters were allowed to fight for the Heavyweight Championship for decades after Johnson voluntarily gave it up to Willard.

Willard tried to free himself that final clinch and couldn't -- until Johnson voluntarily let him free of the clinch.. The reporter doing the round-by-round commented that during that clinch Johnson specifically gazed out into the crowd to locate his wife's box.. He had signaled her to depart before the 26th and wanted to see that she had gone... The KO blow is one of the biggest fakes I've ever seen.. A loaded straight right that Johnson looked all the way in and gently laid himself down to the canvas without letting his head bounce, which is what happens to an unconscious man.. Of course you ignore the overwhelming evidence of a fix and don't even comment on it -- or on what an inept and distressed amateurish boxer the article reports Willard being.

Johnson didn't try to bet on himself because he knew he was going to tank the fight... And you don't try to bet. You either bet or you don't.

[Caractacus]

I think Jack Johnson had the punching power of someone like Michael Dokes (IMOP) from watching his films.

[Kalan]

Yeah Right!!! ... He only Embalmed Stanley Ketchel with one short right uppercut when Ketchel violated their agreement to let the fight go the distance... And hit Ketchel so hard he removed many of his teeth from his head -- and can be seen brushing some of the teeth off his glove after he stretched Ketchel.

[Caractacus]

We already had a thread about that one too a while back.I will try and bump it up.

[Kalan]

Johnson was a big puncher, but he didn't look for the KO... He said he enjoyed boxing and ladling out punishment just enough to keep the fight going... He was the ONLY fighter who ever stopped Jim Jeffries... He was the FIRST fighter who ever stopped tough Tommy Burns.

[Kalan]

We already had a thread about that one too a while back.I will try and bump it up.

Let's stick to the topic at hand... The fact that the Johnson-Willard Fight was a tank job all the way...

[Caractacus]

I came across this on youtube.
An abridged and very grainy print of the fight film,
( like the kind they would show in the basement of the VWF or something)
Showing just portions of
rounds one,
twelve,
fourteen,
fifteen,
seventeen,
eighteen,
nineteen,
twenty,twenty-one,twenty-five and twenty-six.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dnCeXI8MM

In the 20th round at 27:15 Johnson looks like he goes 'Hay-wire" on Willard.
but the right that Willard appears to land at 27:46 looks like it may have buckled Johnson's knees.

[Kalan]

Johnson never went haywire on anybody. Willard was just super easy to hit -- so Johnson hit him up for a while. Johnson eased up whenever Willard showed "signs of distress" which was often.. But Johnson did want to demonstrate that he was superior in every respect. The idea that Willard "may have" buckled Johnson's knees is the product of your biased imagination. You have to search for clean punches that Willard landed. That's why Johnson was unmarked.

Did Dempsey go haywire on Willard??? NO!!! The much smaller man just kept hitting the inept, amateurish punching bag almost non-stop because there was very little coming back at him -- so Jack D kept laying big shots on the phony baloney until Willard quit on his stool after making it the amateur distance.. How appropriate -- because Willard's skills were described by sportswriters as amateurish. The beating Dempsey gave him was appropriate. Willard was so battered he looked like a creature from another planet -- while Dempsey was clean as a whistle.

[APerno]

.
New York Times April 6th 1915, Page 1, "Willard Victor; Johnson Retires from Prize Ring"

Doesn't add much to our argument; will keep looking.

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/WJ.html

[APerno]

.
An interesting 9th paragraph, if the reporter was a first hand witness to the event.

9th paragraph begins: "At first after his defeat Johnson look dazed, . . ."

[Kalan]

APerno... I think you need to go with facts here... NOT bullcrap that was written for white audiences... "Johnson looked dazed" Johnson was not in the slightest dazed or hurt for 26 rounds... The clinch he initiated in the 26th to check and see if his wife had left her box seat shows he was still at maximum physical strength, and not effected by the pace.

To be truthful, there was no "pace" to the fight accept that initiated by Johnson from time to time as he peppered Willard with light punches. It was a long, drawn out sparring session with little action and hardly a fight... In the 22nd round of the round-by-round, the newspaper reported that neither fighter was tired or injured -- except to the film propagandists who are interpreting the action with tons of spin and dubbed voice overs by "Johnson" this was hardly a fight -- and the audience issued cat calls to the fighters to do something.. Nothing much was happening.

White folks wanted to believe Willard was a white hero who won legitimately.. Many still do.. But the facts line up to back Johnson's version of events.

Willard was reported (in the newspaper) to be an inept and distressed amateur as the fight went on... Johnson eased up his attack whenever Willard showed distress... Most of the fight was posing around with very little fighting... Johnson had plenty of strength and energy in the 26th because he initiated a powerful clinch that had absolute control of Willard -- so he could look to his wife's box (also reported in the newspaper) to make sure she exited the arena before he took the dive -- something Johnson wrote about because she had the important documents in her possession and he didn't want her witnessing the farce... Willard utterly fails to hurt or distress Johnson for 26 rounds and then he fells the master boxer with one loaded blow -- a punch that not only Johnson, but every spectator could see coming... Johnson lowers himself gently to the canvas, his head not bouncing (like and unconscious man's would) his knees in the air and his forearm moving into place to shade his eyes from the sun... Willard knew the loaded right didn't connect well, and suggests that he landed an uppercut to finish Johnson. Willard actually said that... Willard also tried to exit the ring the very second he was declared the winner -- a little like Dempsey exiting the ring immediately following his first round KO of Willard, fearing somebody might change the result... In Dempsey's case they did.

Any evidence that Willard won the fight legitimately is spin, speculative, and conjecture at best -- and nonsense at worst (most concussive blow in History)

[Kalan]

.
New York Times April 6th 1915, Page 1, "Willard Victor; Johnson Retires from Prize Ring"

Doesn't add much to our argument; will keep looking.

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/WJ.html

LMAO!!! ... Some "retirement" for Johnson...

Johnson was back in action a lot faster than Willard was... Johnson won his next 13 fights -- a longer winning streak than the inept punching bag Willard ever accomplished... Following his Johnson "win" Willard went 2-2, with 2 KO losses -- for the rest of his "career."

Johnson kept winning until he was 48 years old, when he beat 6'4" x 235 contender Pat Lester, who was 22-5-3.. Old age finally did overtake Johnson after his easy win over Lester at age 48 -- but Johnson continued to box professionally well into his 50's.. I'm going by the newspaper reported physical dimensions of Lester and not what Boxrec reports.

Your link doesn't work... but keep looking... You're not interested in any evidence showing Willard wasn't a legitimate Heavyweight Champion.

[APerno]

Kalan, You understand I didn't write this - I am old but come on - The barbarian said lets collect as many primary sources as we can find and evaluate them - so I am playing along, and went looking to see what I could find - but don't immediately assume I am 'concluding'' when I post some; when all I'm doing is 'investigating'

Now with that said - I don't see why the NY Times writing for a white audience (which it certainly was) would be motivated to write paragraph 9 for 'white purposes' - to me it seems just a common fight observation - a fighter who has just been knocked out would look dazed for a few moments and then come back to clarity - we have all seen that happen over and over again - to me the observation seems realistic/common (if the guy was actually there that is; he could have been writing off an AP or UPI report.)

[APerno]

You're not interested in any evidence showing Willard wasn't a legitimate Heavyweight Champion.

I don't understand this remark - I am posting all I find about the fight - then we can tear it apart; I am not 'cherry picking' the evidence I will post everything I find.

[APerno]

Your link doesn't work....

Kalan do you mean argument wise or were you unable to view the link? - It is a PDF file embedded into a HTML document - maybe it works for me because the original is on my computer ????

[APerno]

I am still working my way through this one - but Kalan check out the section "Knockout in Doubt' - it is not what you expect. - I posted this one as a straight PDF file - we'll see if that works.

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/WJ2.pdf

[Caractacus]

Hey AlPerno,

Let's just assume the guy who had written the round-by-round newspaper account in THE DAY was a typical White-American Bigot of the day
(no pun intended)(and possibly even originally from Kansas).
You should check out how foreign newspapers may have covered the fight who sent reporters to Cuba to cover it.
particularly newspaper accounts written by reporters who attended the fight from Europe (particularly France)
and especially Latin America/South America , because I'm sure the were probably resentful even back then
what a great and magnaminous country
that America was back then and wanted to get in a dig someway or another by being biased .

[Caractacus]

I am still working my way through this one - but Kalan check out the section "Knockout in Doubt' - it is not what you expect. - I posted this one as a straight PDF file - we'll see if that works.

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/WJ2.pdf

The Associated Newspaper ring-side account was very interesting and well written.
I would like to quote a few sentences that I found particularly interesting from it.

"She was on the way out and was passing the ring in the twenty-sixth round when a Cyclonic right to the jaw caused Johnson to crumple to the floor".

also
"Willard said before entering the ring that he expected to take a beating for ten or fifteen rounds at the hands of his faster and more skilled opponent and had trained to withstand it'.

You know what that means ?
it means that Jess Willard had used the "Rope-A-Dope" some 59 years before "The Rumble In the Jungle" !

[Kalan]

I am still working my way through this one - but Kalan check out the section "Knockout in Doubt' - it is not what you expect. - I posted this one as a straight PDF file - we'll see if that works.

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/WJ2.pdf

Brilliant APerno!!! You’ve done it lad!!!

This article is PROOF POSITIVE the fight was a phony and a tank job.. Willard is described as clumsy, unskilled, and punched at will by Johnson... The article states that Willard was outpunched 10 to 1. That for 20 rounds Johnson punched Willard at will. Have you ever heard of somebody being out-punched 10-1 for 20 rounds and winning the fight???

Johnson also pulled his punches.. The article states that neither fighter was badly marked or showed evidence of being in a Heavyweight championship fight.. They compared it unfavorably to the ferocity of the Johnson-Jeffries fight, where the spectators were splashed with blood because of the ferocity of the action between 2 ATG Heavyweights.. Johnson was pulling his punches to make sure he didn’t knock the inept Willard out – as Dempsey and Firpo did in later fights – neither Heavyweight swinger being 1/10th as skilled as the masterful Johnson.

Regardless of the one-sidedness of the contest in Johnson’s favor, there seemed to be communications going on between Johnson and Mrs. Johnson after the 20th round. After the 20th round Johnson stopped punching and Willard stopped punching. They were doing almost nothing but posing while the spectators shouted for them to do something and somebody yelled FAKE!!! The last 3 rounds there was almost complete idleness from the 2 fighters. This had to be because Johnson was anxiously awaiting the signal that Mrs. Johnson had the documents and they were in order. Johnson evidently finally got this communication – because SOMEBODY overheard Johnson send word to his wife after the 25th that the fight was over and to head out of there.. The article states that very thing.. Johnson wrote that he wanted his wife to leave before he took the dive so that part of the newspaper article also backs Johnson up 100%.

The final thing the article states is the KO looked very suspicious and doubtful... There was a lot of discussion and doubt that a KO blow landed.. Nobody heard a punch land.. People expected Johnson to jump up and resume the action.. The suddenness of the ending seemed implausible and DAZED the spectators.. That’s how doubtful and suspicious the KO seemed to people.. Also the article states that Johnson got up immediately after the count, within a second or 2... If a guy is flattened with one of the most concussive blows in history that doesn’t happen. The article also states that Johnson drew up his forearms to shade his eyes from the sun during the count. WOW!!! Can you beat that??? This particular article covers a Hell of a lot of points that paint a picture of fakery.

When I first watched this fight many years ago -- I was also very suspicious of the KO like the writers watching this fight.. A master boxer doesn’t get hit with that type of lead, loaded punch.. It’s not plausible that a man who Johnson made look like a ridiculous clumsy amateur for 26 rounds would suddenly summons the skills to connect with a loaded right that he and everyone else could see.

[Caractacus]

I am still working my way through this one - but Kalan check out the section "Knockout in Doubt' - it is not what you expect. - I posted this one as a straight PDF file - we'll see if that works.

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/WJ2.pdf

In reading this article it would seem that the Twentieth round was the turning point
when Jack Johnson came to the conclusion that he would not be able to knockout Jess Willard
out after he erupted with a combinations when someone ringside called him
"an old man" and Johnson replied "i"ll show you an old man"
then went after Willard in a fury with a combination of punches.
Willard said in the 20th round was the best punch of the fight that Johnson hurt him with was
" a slash" to the heart" and made him gasp for the rest of the round
Willard also said Johnson used the tatic of stepping on his toes of his lead foot
which sprained Willard's ankle during the fight.
Also Willard makes clear when his own heart puch landed,and it wasn't in the previous round,
but in the final round.
He hit Jack Johnson with a right hand-smash to the body and when they went into a clinch
he felt Johnson's body go limp,so when the referree seperated him,he feinted another right
to Johnson's body.Johnson's dropped his guard then Willard threw the massive overhand right
that ended the contest.

[Caractacus]

quote from the Associated Newspaper article
"The blow that actually brought the fight to a quick conclusion was a right-smash to Johnson's body early in the last round.
"I felt Johnson grow limp in the next clinch and knew I had the Championship within my reach"
A left to the body and a right smash to the jaw put Johnson down for the count".
( you can see the telling blow "The Heart Punch" at a 9:05 of this rare film footage of round 26 of the fight)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZVlsLs9Eo

BTW no wonder I missed this in reviewing the footage of the 25th and 26th rounds in the
other two versions of film footage.It appears to have been edited out or was missing in the first place.
Notice the film frame warps during that exchange in the "additonal footage of round 26th
in the above video.

[APerno]

He hit Jack Johnson with a right hand-smash to the body and when they went into a clinch
he felt Johnson's body go limp,so when the referree seperated him,he feinted another right
to Johnson's body.Johnson's dropped his guard then Willard threw the massive overhand right
that ended the contest.

Back when we first started this debate I felt it was the final clinch that finished Johnson; that he came out of that clinch a finished fighter; I did not at that time see, or even know about the 'heart punch,' the above Willard comments, regarding the final clinch, makes perfect sense to me.

I originally assumed it was just general fatigue, caused from JJ having to carry Willard around, in the sun, for 26 rounds; but either way I feel that it is obvious that Johnson is finished when he breaks from the final clinch.

[Kalan]

You post like you're in Zu Zu Land and can't comprehend facts... I don't know why you continue to cling to BS and won't read the article you posted.. Obviously a lot of spectators thought the fight was FAKE and the KO was fake... otherwise that wouldn't be part of the article.

There was no heart punch except the one Willard said left him gasping for breath.. In the final clinch Willard is manhandled by Johnson as he looks to his wife's box.. It shows Johnson still at full strength because Willard tries to pull himself out of the clinch 3 times, but can't until Johnson releases him. Then Johnson moves back trying to set up the fake KO.. Willard throws a shot to the belt-line.. That's not a good punch on which to fake a KO with so Johnson waits for another.. It's a head shot that never makes contact and Johnson eases himself to the canvas with ringsiders thinking it's a bogus KO.

You guys simply ignore all the evidence of a fix that's right in front of your faces... Why does you last newspaper article talk about the KO being so doubtful??? Why was the audience dazed that Johnson didn't get up from a non-punch??? Why does the article inform the reader that after the 25th round Johnson told his wife the fight was over in the next round -- and to start heading for home???

Also when a boxer fights 12 rounds and he won every round through the 5th he may "take a round off" right? If you win 20 rounds in a row and are out-punching your opponent 10-1, why not take 4 or 5 rounds off at that point if you want to recoup your energy??? You're way ahead so why not??? The 2 fighters did virtually nothing from the 21st through the 25th but rest up.. There was nobody putting pressure on Johnson or forcing the pace according to the article -- so why would he feel compelled to quit while he was way ahead if the fight were for real???

[APerno]

A little off task, but interesting. [short]

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/JJ02.pdf

[Kalan]

A little off task, but interesting. [short]

http://www.perno.com/Boxing/JJ02.pdf

You're right about one thing.. That story is WAY off target.. It has nothing to do with the phony Johnson-Willard fight. It's another hate-piece on Johnson.

How about answering the evidence I present in my posts??? ... You can't without admitting the fight and the KO punch were fake.