How many champions did Sugar Ray Robinson beat?

[10,000 Days]

On Boxrec's biography it says he defeated 16 former,current, or future world champions. I have been able to find 15, but not 16. Can anyone help me out? My list so far:

champions defeated (in no particular order)

1. Fritzie Zivic (World WW)
2. Sammy Angott (World LW)
3. Kid Gavilan (World WW)
4. Henry Armstrong (World FW,LW,WW)
5. Jake Lamotta (World MW)
6. Randy Turpin (World MW)
7. Rocky Graziano (NBA MW)
8. Carl Oslon (World MW)
9. Carmen Basilio (World WW,MW)
10. Marty Servo (World WW)
11. Gene Fullmer (World MW)
12. Denny Moyer (WBC WBA World LMW)
13. Ralph Dupas (WBC WBA World LMW)
14. Izzy Jannazzo (Maryland version?? WW)
15. Maxie Berger (Montreal Athletic Commission LWW)

[Crease]

Paul Pender was World Middleweight Champion.

[Seamus]

Pender got both decisions though.

[10,000 Days]

Paul Pender was World Middleweight Champion.

Indeed he was, but unfortunately Robinson didn't beat him. So it can't be him, thanks anyways.

[Crease]

Pender got both decisions though.

Ah yes. Was thinking that SRR got one of the decisions there. Don't know why.

[Crease]

Okay, thinking about this - was Tommy Bell not a Welterweight Champion?

[10,000 Days]

Okay, thinking about this - was Tommy Bell not a Welterweight Champion?

No, I don't think so.

[jimglen]

was California Jackie Wilson a World BLACK Champion?

[10,000 Days]

was California Jackie Wilson a World BLACK Champion?

Nothing on his record or biography says so.

[Kalan]

On Boxrec's biography it says he defeated 16 former,current, or future world champions. I have been able to find 15, but not 16. Can anyone help me out? My list so far:

champions defeated (in no particular order)

1. Fritzie Zivic (World WW)
2. Sammy Angott (World LW)
3. Kid Gavilan (World WW)
4. Henry Armstrong (World FW,LW,WW)
5. Jake Lamotta (World MW)
6. Randy Turpin (World MW)
7. Rocky Graziano (NBA MW)
8. Carl Oslon (World MW)
9. Carmen Basilio (World WW,MW)
10. Marty Servo (World WW)
11. Gene Fullmer (World MW)
12. Denny Moyer (WBC WBA World LMW)
13. Ralph Dupas (WBC WBA World LMW)
14. Izzy Jannazzo (Maryland version?? WW)
15. Maxie Berger (Montreal Athletic Commission LWW)

Here's the rest of the story...

Turpin, Fullmer, and Basilio beat Robinson for the Middleweight Title before he beat them.. LaMotta also has a win over Robinson.. Graziano was at the tail end of his career... Jannazzo and Berger weren't real champs... And some of those opponents—like Henry Armstrong—were flagrantly terrible mismatches... guys who made no effort whatever to fight and the fans booed the fight out.

Ralph Dupas was dominated by Emile Griffith 6 months before he fought SRR to a SD.. Robinson refused all offers to fight Griffith.. He was well protected

[jimglen]

loads of fighters didn't fight the best period, never mind at the end of their career... SRR was a 25 year at the top marvel, nothing protected about him. could he have fought some others, sure they ALL could have, but you can't fight everybody, sometimes peaks aren't in line and those fights aren't even a consideration.

IF your talking about evidenced out & out ducking or avoidance that's different, but at the end of an exceptionally long career at the TOP well, your not going to put yourself through a likely beating or too hard a chance fight.

Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time, both in achievement & H2H where it really matters!

[handsofstone]

Okay, thinking about this - was Tommy Bell not a Welterweight Champion?

No, I don't think so.

I always thought Robinson beat Bell to win the WW title, was the title vacant then??

[orbtastic]

Yeah

[crl333]

Marty Servo vacated the title in Sept 1946, Robinson beat Bell for the vacant title 3 months later.

[Kalan]

loads of fighters didn't fight the best period, never mind at the end of their career... SRR was a 25 year at the top marvel, nothing protected about him. could he have fought some others, sure they ALL could have, but you can't fight everybody

Well...I believe he could have fought Emile Griffith instead of Ralph Dupas -- who Griffith dominated... And I believe he could have given Ralph Jones a rematch to prove the drubbing Jones gave him was not a fluke.. Robinson wouldn't do that.. And Robbie picked the weakest and lightest hitting Light Heavyweight Champion to try to beat.. and he didn't want an extremely lucrative and red hot rematch with Maxim -- to show that loss was a fluke.

When Archie Moore won the Light Heavyweight Title SRR didn't want to challenge him for the title.. Moore was older and had more fights than Robinson.

[jimglen]

I'm glad you brought up Moore because it was the Ol' Mongoose who I was initially going to use as the example of "End of Career..." decisions to go a bit easier.

Archie Moore is also one of the greatest without argument, and he too had an Exceptionally Long Career at the TOP, but Archie was proposed with a dance with the undoubtable Scot, Chic Calderwood. Moore told Calderwood your too young and I'm too old and their would be no bout.

did Archie duck Calderwood, NO, it wasn't a must do fight, and at that late stage if your going to get Slammed about you may as well get a Big Purse for the pleasure.

End of career, not fully relevant fights is not Ducking... Prime & Peak years while at the TOP is different, then you are right.

but not at the End of Careers, especially 25 year top ones!

[Kalan]

but not at the End of Careers, especially 25 year top ones!

Ralph Jones suffered 5 straight losses before he was matched with Robinson...so Jones was a massive underdog, but he beat the ass off Robinson... In fact, Jones fought a brilliant fight and dominated Robinson.. It wasn't an "End of Career fight" either.. Robinson was 33 and would fight for another 12 years.. For his brilliant domination of Robinson Jones deserved a rematch.. He was a guy who didn't get a lot of chances to shine at the top.. SRR turned it down.

Robinson was 31 when he lost to Maxim by stoppage.. Maxim was miffed as Hell because the press played Robinson's loss like the weather beat Sugar Ray and not Maxim.. "It was just as hot for me in that ring as it was for Robinson.. I paced myself better considering it was a hot night.. I could have boxed 25 rounds at the pace we were going." But the press couldn't get their heads around a slow, plodding, feather punching Maxim beating Sugar Ray Robinson.. Maxim was anxious to do the rematch, "I just wonder if it will be too cold out for Robinson next time."

We didn't find out of course.. Robinson turned down the super lucrative rematch and retired at 31.. That was pretty much his only option if he wanted to avoid a Maxim rematch.. Although Maxim was a colorless character the match-up was box office magic.. One of those things you can't quite figure.

[jimglen]

hey Kalan I'm not arguing with yah man, I agree with you nearly 100%.

I stated at the start they ALL could and in many cases Should Have fought some other top & great fighters. Scheesh for every champion or fighter that got a chance there were at least handfuls of other Top and capable men that didn't and some of them the True Best in the sport, whether acknowledge or not. and I for one support people like you bringing such fighters to our attention.

I simply just saying it doesn't mean SRR (and others) are less great.

for all the unsung greats, and there are hundreds, the real sad thing is how the last 40 years of boxing has all but forgotten this fact and the sheer amount of mediocre names that get placed ahead of some past names Known & Unknown,

that's the real crime in boxing today. some dross being forged as Gold.

[Kalan]

The real sad thing is how the last 40 years of boxing has all but forgotten this fact and the sheer amount of mediocre names that get placed ahead of some past names Known & Unknown, that's the real crime in boxing today. some dross being forged as Gold.

Well I can see that the opposite is true... Commentators, writers, "experts" and Internet posters constantly downplay the accomplishments of contemporary boxers and compare them unfavorably to legends of the past.. They tend to forget about the lousy fights and losses that Robinson, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, and other legends suffered.. They excuse their losses and lousy showings by claiming those eras were so much better and the competition and caliber of fighters were so much higher -- and that is a load of hogwash.

For instance, the Heavyweight Division is frequently derided as a crap division because of the lack of top ranking American Heavyweights. But a huge slice of the world didn't have professional Boxing before 1990... Boxing has gone global and today there's many more boxers from many more countries.

Case in point: THE TOP 35 HEAVYWEIGHTS TODAY...

1. Anthony Joshua... 2. Luis Ortiz... 3. Deontay Wilder... 4. Tyson Fury...5. Wladimir Klitschko... 6. Alexander Povetkin... 7. Joseph Parker... 8. Andy Ruiz... 9. Carlos Takam... 10. Dillian Whyte... 11. Kubrat Pulev... 12. Hughie Fury... 13. Dominic Breazeale... 14. David Haye... 15. Johann Duhaupas... 16. Bryant Jennings... 17. Izuagbe Ugonoh... 18. Lucas Browne... 19. Gerald Washington... 20. Charles Martin... 21. Christian Hammer... 22. Malik Scott... 23. Ruslan Chagaev... 24. Alexander Ustinov... 25. Dereck Chisora... 26. Amir Mansour... 27. Otto Wallin... 28. Artur Szpilka... 29. Erkan Tepper... 30. Bermane Stiverne... 31. Czar Glazkov... 32. Mike Perez... 33. Robert Helenius... 34. Mariusz Wach... 35. Eric Molina

Beats a lot of Heavyweight Title Challengers from the 1950’s, 60’s and 70’s:

Don Cockell... Roland LaStarza... Tom McNeely... Pete Rademacher... Roy Harris... Brian London... Henry Cooper... Karl Mildenbugger Alfredo Evangelista... Chuck Wepner... Jean Pierre Coopman... Leon Stinks... Terry Daniels... Dave Zyglewitz... Manuel Ramos... Ron Stander... Richard Dunn...

Can you believe some of those little fart sacks got title shots???

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan your disrespect for pugilists who get into the ring and give it there best makes me puke.

But that does not mean that I don't recognize your appetite for and success acquiring knowledge regarding the sport....even if your judgement sucks a lemon.


But I need to call your attention to something....you made it clear that Joshua was going to have a cakewalk against Wlad.....

(of course now I'm sure the only thing your going to talk about is that you predicted it correctly) But you didn't do a very good job of describing just how competitive it would be.

I imagined Joshua would win in a tough fight.....you said it would be a walk in the park.

Now you know.

And your assessment of SRR is just not all that good....even if you ask us to question everything. Which is not a bad approach....but with SRR, he ends up looking better than what you give him credit for. Your an odd duck. And in this case, I'm glad a duck's quack does not reverberate all that well.

[Kalan]

BuzzBox... You're not only a odd duck -- you're a dumb one as well... I said IF Joshua lost the fight it wouldn't hurt his career more than 10-1 underdog Max Schmeling knocking out Joe Louis hurt his... That means I recognized Joshua was a green-horn with 44 rounds of pro fighting, who was fighting a guy with almost 400 rounds of pro fighting in Wladimir... I knew Joshua could possibly make a mistake that could cost him versus Klitschko or Ortiz.. Ortiz might knock him out.. He has a better chance than Klitschko.. The odds don't favor any of that, but the odds don't favor a lot of things that actually happen. You don't expect to die tomorrow but you have life insurance just in case.

We're talking ODDS and what could possibly go wrong for ANYBODY in a Heavyweight Fight.. Ali got his jaw shattered by Ken Norton and lost to a 10-1 underdog who most figured didn't have a chance in Hell.. Ali lost to Leon Stinks who had only 7 fights... Tyson lost to 42-1 underdog Douglas who had been knocked out 3 times before... Klitschko lost to Corrie Sanders who most figured didn't have a chance in Hell to beat the 41-1 Klitschko.

Now let's talk about Sugar Ray Robinson...

Robinson lost to chinny Randy Turpin... Robinson lost to inept swingers Fullmer, Basilio, and LaMotta... Robinson lost to feather hitting Joey Maxim... Robinson lost to massive underdog Ralph Jones who was coming off of 5 straight losses.. That's fine.. Robinson lost a lot of Championship fights, but he also won some of them so the boy did good.. How about Antony Joshua who won all his Heavyweight Championship Fights and knocked out every single one of his opponents? ... Do you have any praise for him -- or is it only reserved for Robinson and other old timers who got their butts kicked in???

I think there's something to be said for an undefeated Heavyweight Champion who kicked ass on his first 3 Heavyweight challengers.. Sugar Ray Robinson lost to his FIRST Middleweight Challenger.. If Joshua ever loses he's going to get his ass kicked all over the place, in print, by all the haters that abound nowadays.. It was said of boxers in the 20'S, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's and 80's that they could lose fights.. Like Cleveland can lose a Basketball game.. Okay we lost..let's get 'em next time.. If a highly skilled boxer today loses a fight people say he's exposed and that's the end of him -- even if he was robbed blind.

[jimglen]

this is getting stupid now.

AJ has only had 19 fights or something and only 2or3 among the top, SRR had over 200 and literally dozens of them among the top men.

surely you understand that difference.

IF Joshua ends up having even 40 fights; ' IF ' well then we will more than likely see a few surprises... AJ ' might ' prove to be the greatest thing yet, but he might also stumble at some point and here's a thought, IF he does stumble at some point, he might not be the same ever again after it.

way too soon to know, put it in perspective... time will tell.

I am a Joshua fan, I Fully Expect him to go far,
but I will not be surprised nor upset if it changed at some future point. that is boxing. I don't give a shit IF a fighter beats a few great top men, it only proves he is as good as thousands of other good or noted fighters, but TIMES that by Dozens of TOP FIGHTS, plus a hundred more (as was the case for some), then you've really proved your true worth then haven't you.

think RJJ, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, the NEW Greatest ever, but once he stepped UP and got his chin cracked he was never the same... RJJ proved he wasn't, some other greats like, PEP, SRR, GREB, just to name a few WERE!!!

far too early for AJ, NO Comparison yet... we shall see.

[Kalan]

jimglen, It's getting stupid because you're not applying common sense and apples vs apples in comparing Joshua and Robinson.

Robinson fought some 85 amateur fights but never won a national title, never went for the Olympic Games, and never boxed in international tournaments... He boxed only in events where his handlers could control the outcomes.. When he lost amateur fights his handlers substituted his real name Walker Smith to keep him unbeaten.. Joshua won national, international and Olympic Championships as an amateur and Robinson didn't.

When SRR turned pro he fought scores of carefully selected record padders a la Jimmy Wilde... Joshua had a much steeper, more challenging progression.

SRR can more readily be judged on his Title Fights than non-title fights.. It's harder to pad up your record in title events cuz they're supposed to be worthy opponents.. Robinson's record in World Title Defenses was 8-3.. That is good but hardly outstanding, especially when you consider the poor skills of most of his challengers.. Gennady Golovkin, for example, is 18-0 in Title Defenses and what Robinson challenger had the size or skills of a Daniel Jacobs or Canelo Alvarez?

You can posit from Anthony Joshua's ring record, punching power, and overall skill development -- to this point in his career at 19-0, with 19 KO wins and already being 4-0 in World Title Fights -- that he's already on a very high level and improving rapidly.. You have to be dubious about past ATG Heavyweight Champions faring well against somebody 6'6" X 250 with Joshua's speed, power, and boxing and punching ability.. Especially Lennox Lewis who got clocked by somebody as lacking as Hasim Rahman.

[Crease]

jimglen, It's getting stupid because you're not applying common sense and apples vs apples in comparing Joshua and Robinson.

How can anyone compare a natural Welterweight to a Heavyweight the size of Joshua?
It's not even a conversation worth having.

[Crease]

Robinson refused all offers to fight Griffith.. He was well protected

Well, I must say - it makes a change in not hearing that Robinson ducked Charley Burley or Holman Williams.
They two often get touted as being the big dangers of SRR's time and those he wouldn't fight.