Hagler rates

[hagler81]

So I have been studying boxing and its fighters for a few years now and my favourite is Marvellous Marvin. Was he the greatest middleweight ever?

Did he really beat Leonard?

How high do you rate him as a middleweight and an all timer?

I am going to compile my top 100 boxers in time, It will take a long time granted but how cool will it be to watch all the videos and read all the books, then forge my own opinions?

Thanks guys and if you can give me a starting point for my research that would be greatly appreciated. I am no expert on boxing I am a fan of the sport. However I love to write and compile lists and need some encouragement and help in doing so. There is so much to do along with studying for my paralegal diploma!

ps. Joshua will not KO Dr Steelhammer

[Ossyrules]

They're both before my time but from reading and watching old fights, I'd place hagler and monzon as the top 2. People may say ray Robinson, but at middleweight I'm not completely sure.

In recent times I have Roy jones as a modern day great at 160. I truly believe he had the physical gifts to take on all comers at that weight.

[hagler81]

They're both before my time but from reading and watching old fights, I'd place hagler and monzon as the top 2. People may say ray Robinson, but at middleweight I'm not completely sure.

In recent times I have Roy jones as a modern day great at 160. I truly believe he had the physical gifts to take on all comers at that weight.

Not seen any Monzon fights. Must try and get some. Seen about 20 Hagler fights though and some highlights of Sugar Ray. Roy Jones is a great for sure seen a few of his fights. Any Monzon fights I should see? I try and get as many dvds as possible or watch on youtube.

[Ossyrules]

Try Emile Griffith where I think he was the challenger and also Jose napoles

[hagler81]

Try Emile Griffith where I think he was the challenger and also Jose napoles

Thanks, will look on youtube. In time I am going to watch all the greats and their fights. I watched Hagler/Mugabi last night again. Mugabi was strong as an ox, very good fighter but my main man Ko's him. Like he also ko'd Hearns. Leonard beat Hagler fair and square though in my opinion. Not sure how highly you rate those fighters too?

[Ossyrules]

Try Emile Griffith where I think he was the challenger and also Jose napoles

Thanks, will look on youtube. In time I am going to watch all the greats and their fights. I watched Hagler/Mugabi last night again. Mugabi was strong as an ox, very good fighter but my main man Ko's him. Like he also ko'd Hearns. Leonard beat Hagler fair and square though in my opinion. Not sure how highly you rate those fighters too?

Ray Leonard is a bonafide atg. I mean a really exceptional boxer. Could do it all. Hearns is a personal favourite and due to his physical advantage was almost impossible to out box, especially with his pop, but if you could get to him your only chance was to be aggressive and put it on him.

It was a great era

[hagler81]

Agreed. I am a what if man, I kinda dream about what ifs in all kinds of things and Hearns could of beaten anybody he was that good. Need to get his boxsets now. Going to watch youtube for some of his fights. You put your opinions across well and I can probably learn off you in time. I did a bit of Muay Thai and a bit of boxing. However I am not as knowledgeable as you or many on here, just learning the ropes. But Hagler in my opinion from what I have seen is an atg and number one (for now) middleweight. Read Bert Sugar's 100 greatest fighters book these last few weeks and I think it is a bit biased

[writehooks]

I've always had Monzon and Hagler at 1-2 ... but it's pretty much a pick 'em proposition. Monzon was a master at adapting and could beat you any way you want to fight. On top of that, he was a ruthless finisher. MM had an iron will and a chin to match -- as well as KO power in both fists and surprisingly fleet feet. I was on media row for Hagler-Leonard and, like a lot of my colleagues, thought Hagler was the clear victor. I've probably watched the tape 100 times since, and have never changed that opinion. For me, the difference was EFFECTIVE aggression. Hagler pressed the action by maintaining the steadier (and heavier) punch output ... through 10 rounds, at least. Sugar Ray for the most part played it safe, moving in and out of the pocket to score late flurries. Combined with his dazzling movement, it created an illusion that convinced the judges. Just my 2 cents worth.

[hagler81]

I've always had Monzon and Hagler at 1-2 ... but it's pretty much a pick 'em proposition. Monzon was a master at adapting and could beat you any way you want to fight. On top of that, he was a ruthless finisher. MM had an iron will and a chin to match -- as well as KO power in both fists and surprisingly fleet feet. I was on media row for Hagler-Leonard and, like a lot of my colleagues, thought Hagler was the clear victor. I've probably watched the tape 100 times since, and have never changed that opinion. For me, the difference was EFFECTIVE aggression. Hagler pressed the action by maintaining the steadier (and heavier) punch output ... through 10 rounds, at least. Sugar Ray for the most part played it safe, moving in and out of the pocket to score late flurries. Combined with his dazzling movement, it created an illusion that convinced the judges. Just my 2 cents worth.

No, I am with you on that, Leonard was terrific fighter but like you say he was usually in the last minute of the round moving in and out throwing flashy shots. Hagler was hunting him down for the whole fight. Wow you was on media row? that must of been special, maybe one of your all time favourites?

Monzon was rangy and looked difficult and awkward to fight, a bit like Hearns... which is why I give Hagler the number one spot so far as middleweight all time king. I watched two Monzon fights last night where he beat the greats Napoles and Emile Griffith. Both seemed smaller to me and not natural middleweights. Am I wrong? Hope not as I am a newbie to this forum. Been watching boxing since 85 as a 4 year old kid. I vaguely remember Barry Mcguigan winning a world title.

I have seen Hagler fight Hearns probably ten times and also his fights with Mugabi, Leonard and Duran the same. I agree he had one of the greatest chins in boxing history, could move, big puncher. He was menacing to me and scary seeing his bald shaven head and his menacing eyes. No fighter like Marvin has got me off my feet like him. There have been a number of others but I just like Hagler. Maybe it will change as I watch more fighters but for now he is number one.

[davie]

As good a place to start as any:

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... eight+game

Here's what Boxrec thinks.

[davie]

I had Marv as my no1 middleweight a few year back, I'd never heard of Greb, I wasn't fond of Monzon and rated SRR more as a WW

Between then and the thread I posted above I've had Greb top, Robinson top, I'd never rated Monzon above Hagler, but that's slight bias and personal favourites at play probably

By the time I wrote that list, I was still leaning to Marv, as I see him and Monzon as the proper career middleweights, while SRR and Greb are p4p greats with achievements at other weight classes. and I always rated him above Carlos

Only 6 months has passed since writing that, I'd probably lean towards Greb, I've seen a lot more of Monzon that I like and struggle to seperate him and Marv. It's always an interesting debate

[davie]

They're both before my time but from reading and watching old fights, I'd place hagler and monzon as the top 2. People may say ray Robinson, but at middleweight I'm not completely sure.

In recent times I have Roy jones as a modern day great at 160. I truly believe he had the physical gifts to take on all comers at that weight.

Not seen any Monzon fights. Must try and get some. Seen about 20 Hagler fights though and some highlights of Sugar Ray. Roy Jones is a great for sure seen a few of his fights. Any Monzon fights I should see? I try and get as many dvds as possible or watch on youtube.

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=209080

[hagler81]

I had Marv as my no1 middleweight a few year back, I'd never heard of Greb, I wasn't fond of Monzon and rated SRR more as a WW

Between then and the thread I posted above I've had Greb top, Robinson top, I'd never rated Monzon above Hagler, but that's slight bias and personal favourites at play probably

By the time I wrote that list, I was still leaning to Marv, as I see him and Monzon as the proper career middleweights, while SRR and Greb are p4p greats with achievements at other weight classes. and I always rated him above Carlos

Only 6 months has passed since writing that, I'd probably lean towards Greb, I've seen a lot more of Monzon that I like and struggle to seperate him and Marv. It's always an interesting debate

Not seen any Greb fights, I assumed them to be rare? like a lot of boxing fans I haven't seen a lot of these fighters from past eras. Hagler I have and he was as mean as they come in my book. An interesting debate indeed but do you agree that Monzon was a bit like Hearns in being awkward and rangy? and we know what happened to the hitman against mm. Just seen 2 Monzon fights last night, I like him a lot but he beat smaller great welterweights imo. Just my 10 pence worth.

[davie]

I had Marv as my no1 middleweight a few year back, I'd never heard of Greb, I wasn't fond of Monzon and rated SRR more as a WW

Between then and the thread I posted above I've had Greb top, Robinson top, I'd never rated Monzon above Hagler, but that's slight bias and personal favourites at play probably

By the time I wrote that list, I was still leaning to Marv, as I see him and Monzon as the proper career middleweights, while SRR and Greb are p4p greats with achievements at other weight classes. and I always rated him above Carlos

Only 6 months has passed since writing that, I'd probably lean towards Greb, I've seen a lot more of Monzon that I like and struggle to seperate him and Marv. It's always an interesting debate

Not seen any Greb fights.

Very

[davie]

I had Marv as my no1 middleweight a few year back, I'd never heard of Greb, I wasn't fond of Monzon and rated SRR more as a WW

Between then and the thread I posted above I've had Greb top, Robinson top, I'd never rated Monzon above Hagler, but that's slight bias and personal favourites at play probably

By the time I wrote that list, I was still leaning to Marv, as I see him and Monzon as the proper career middleweights, while SRR and Greb are p4p greats with achievements at other weight classes. and I always rated him above Carlos

Only 6 months has passed since writing that, I'd probably lean towards Greb, I've seen a lot more of Monzon that I like and struggle to seperate him and Marv. It's always an interesting debate

Not seen any Greb fights, I assumed them to be rare? like a lot of boxing fans I haven't seen a lot of these fighters from past eras. Hagler I have and he was as mean as they come in my book. An interesting debate indeed but do you agree that Monzon was a bit like Hearns in being awkward and rangy? and we know what happened to the hitman against mm. Just seen 2 Monzon fights last night, I like him a lot but he beat smaller great welterweights imo. Just my 10 pence worth.

I had watched a couple Monzon fights and I really didn't like his style, really not the most elegant of fighters, but you don't get marks for artistic impression in this game, so I was probably judging it all wrong
but I've seen a few more fights of his now and have a real hard time splitting him and Marv. I think Marv just sit slightly ahead out of personal favouritism

The Valdez & Briscoe fights I posted were enjoyable. From what I've watched, his earlier days, he was more about effective aggresion, crude at times but very effective, did what he had to to win. In his later career, again just from the fights I've seen, he adapted as many older fighter did, used his boxing and demonstrate a different side of his game that he perhaps never relied on earlier in his career and produced some more aesthetically pleasing displays. A terrific fighter who could do it all and someone I have had to adjust my opinion of just over the last couple years,
I set out on a very similar conquest as you are now, just a short time ago,

[BoxBuzz]

Monzon was so good....he would beat Harry Greb

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Top 5 best Middleweight's for sure maybe top 3 and NO NO NO he was certainly out-boxed by SRL HAGLER A LEGEND.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He certainly could be the greatest, I thought he lost to Leonard, I have him #2 behind greb and top 20-30 all around.

[elmersalsa]

I got Marvelous ranked at #3 @ middleweight and #34 pound per pound of all time. A great boxer how you look at him.

[Kalan]

I had watched a couple Monzon fights and I really didn't like his style, really not the most elegant of fighters, but you don't get marks for artistic impression in this game, so I was probably judging it all wrong but I've seen a few more fights of his now and have a real hard time splitting him and Marv. I think Marv just sit slightly ahead out of personal favouritism

I can't see what you don't like about Monzon... He's a Hell of a lot more elegant than Hagler.. Nino Benvenuti won his first 65 professional fights in a row and all 120 of his amateur fights. He's an Olympic Gold Medalist... He won the "best boxer" award in Olympics over Ali... Monzon punched the living crap out of Benvenuti and destroyed him... Monzon beat Benvenuti twice, Emile Griffith twice, and Rodrigo Valdez twice... I don't see any natural Middleweights Hagler fought who were any good -- and he refused to fight Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, and Harol Graham.

Plus a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff beat him -- so that's not doing well.

[davie]

I had watched a couple Monzon fights and I really didn't like his style, really not the most elegant of fighters, but you don't get marks for artistic impression in this game, so I was probably judging it all wrong but I've seen a few more fights of his now and have a real hard time splitting him and Marv. I think Marv just sit slightly ahead out of personal favouritism

I can't see what you don't like about Monzon...

I think my post kind of covers it Kalan.

I judged him after seeing only a couple of fights and based on those couple fights alone I wasn't blown away.
I admitted to judging it wrong and now think he is arguably the best career middleweight ever, it's a hard call between him and Marv

I watched a couple of his fights early on in his reign, where he was in some of his very hardest challenges and he did what he had to do to win them.
I gave him credit for being very good, very hard and very effective, I just didn't find his style to be the most fluid or enjoyable to watch (hardly scathing criticism)
I have since watched a few more of his fights and seen he could also box, so not only is he an efficient destructive machine, he can box too and I rate him as possibly the best.
I think it's fair to say I'm a fan

[Ambling Alp II]

I think there are crucial aspects that aren't taken into account with the Top middleweights

Monzon-I don't thinkl realize how far past it Griffith was when he almost beat Monzon. That has to count against Monzon who should have beaten much more easily. It's also questionable how much Benvenuti had left when Monzon beat him.

Hagler- I just find it hard to believe that the best middleweight of all time would have lost to Leonard who had been off for so long.

Greb- Most of his best wins were when he was above middleweight. I think some people just count them all when rating him as a middleweight. They should count when rating him on a pound for pound basis but not when rating him as a middleweight.

Robinson - People overemphasize losses late in his career when he was way past it. When he was battling Fullmer, Basilio etc. he was already in his mid-30s and have well over 100 fights. Monzon and Hagler were retired long before then.

People don't include wins he had over middleweight before he won the middleweight title. He was probably a better middleweight when he weighed 145-150 pounds in his 20s than when he weighed 155-160 in his mid-late 30s.

[cfang]

Greb, SRR, hagler, monzon and Langford are the greatest middles for sure.

What a round robin tourney these chaps would make. Hagler my boyhood boxing hero. It's hard to split him and monzon. Robinson certainly better as a welter. Langford could only be truly bested by the best heavy during his prime.

All in all though I'd go for greb. His record is off the scale. The sheer quality of boxers he beat , so frequently and over such a long period stands out. He also beat walker who would prove to be a legend. Walkers career tends to highlight how good greb was. Greatest middle ever imo.

[hhaehre]

I had watched a couple Monzon fights and I really didn't like his style, really not the most elegant of fighters, but you don't get marks for artistic impression in this game, so I was probably judging it all wrong but I've seen a few more fights of his now and have a real hard time splitting him and Marv. I think Marv just sit slightly ahead out of personal favouritism

I can't see what you don't like about Monzon... He's a Hell of a lot more elegant than Hagler.. Nino Benvenuti won his first 65 professional fights in a row and all 120 of his amateur fights. He's an Olympic Gold Medalist... He won the "best boxer" award in Olympics over Ali... Monzon punched the living crap out of Benvenuti and destroyed him... Monzon beat Benvenuti twice, Emile Griffith twice, and Rodrigo Valdez twice... I don't see any natural Middleweights Hagler fought who were any good -- and he refused to fight Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, and Harol Graham.

Plus a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff beat him -- so that's not doing well.

How would you rate Greb? I mean based on the films you have seen at that long gone and forgotten theatre your dad drove you to.