possible Tyson fights if not for the Douglas loss

cybox · Post by **cybox** » 21 Mar 2006, 10:12

Here is a list of fighters who were in line in the early 90's to get a crack at TYson's belt had he not lost to Douglas.
** fights record at time of Douglas loss
Michael Dokes 41-2-2 (26) 31 yrs old
Renaldo Snipes 36-7-1- (21) 31 yrs old
Ray Mercer 13-0 (10) 28 yrs. old
Tim Witherspoon 31-3 (23) 32 yrs old
Gary Mason 33-0 (31) 27 yrs old

How would they have fared? I see 5 more successful defenses for Tyson had he gotten past Douglas. Then fought Holyfied and Ruddock and Bowe and Lennox after these five and cashing in on a few easy paydays first.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 21 Mar 2006, 14:38

If Witherspoon had of turned up in shape and motivated he would have given Tyson a very tough fight.

gregor · Post by **gregor** » 21 Mar 2006, 19:39

I'd be interested to see him against Mercer... I also mean the motivated version of Mercer who almost won with Lewis and was competitive against Holyfield (I know this was few years after Tyson-Douglas fight, but we are discussing fantasy match-ups anyway).

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 21 Mar 2006, 21:04

KOJOE90 wrote:If Witherspoon had of turned up in shape and motivated he would have given Tyson a very tough fight.

disagree. spoon was in shape and motivated vs pinklon thomas and thomas outboxed him. spoon was just like the rest of the crop and tyson would have destroyed spoon just like he did tubbs, thomas, berbick

tyson had no problem dealing with good boxers like thomas, tubbs, old holmes, tucker. this would have been another blowout win for a peak tyson.

- ill say this witherspoon did not want to figh tyson after seeing tyson destroy the likes of pinklon thomas and tony tubbs.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 21 Mar 2006, 21:04

tyson knocks out holyfield. maybe not 1990, but the peak 86-88 tyson would knockout any version of evander .

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Mar 2006, 21:47

I think of the five listed, the two who would have gave Tyson a hard time would have been Michael Dokes, Ray Mercer and Evander Holyfield.

I only mention Dokes cus he was possibly the best of 80's cess pool of flops and medicore WBA champs. Dokes had a helluva lot of talent, which he pissed away on drugs, and never was quite the same after losing to Gerrie Coetzee.

But Dokes did give Holyfield one helluva fight after Holyfield turned Heavyweight in the 80's, and is one of my favorite Holyfield fights ever, and easily the last great performance of Dokes as a professional. When I first saw it, I would have thought it could have went either way---but Holyfield got to the KO first.

Holyfield vs Tyson at any time in their careers would be a hard fought contest, Holyfield is easily the best Cruiserweight champion of all time, when Tyson was on the up and up---and myself as much as I like Tyson, Holyfield was never one to be bullied and he would always take teh fight to Tyson.

Maybe it would have went the distance, but I think Evander in his prime would have won a decision.

As far as the remaining Heavyweights listed, Mercer had a chin of granite and hit hard, but was a pretty old man when he got into the game, but he gave Lennox Lewis hell, and is in my opinion one of the far better Heavies of that time---but Mercer's peak was around 93-96, not 90 when Tyson lost to Douglas---that too would have been a very interesting fight, and would prolly go into the later rounds, be a hard fought match, if not go the distance.

SNipes would have been blown away easy cus he was a bunch of hype neways---Witherspoon would have given Tyson problems in the early going---being a 2x champion is nothing to sneeze at despite any era, but Witherspoon lacked conditioning, and despite the people he faced, Witherspoon lacked an edge. He would be dispatched of in the middle to late rounds.

Gary Mason on the other hand, is in my mind, in the top ten best British Heavyweights of the modern era. But in my opinion, Mason was never really tested against the best of the late 80's and early to mid 90's. He faced Tillis and Biggs, and journeymen such as Everett "Bigfoot" Martin, but failed to do anything with Lennox Lewis, who was 14-0 at the time.

Mason in my eyes would have falled in the 5th round, much like the Bruno fight, the first one. He would have been game, but with inexperience against real opponents, he would have been beaten up pretty bad.

Course one could argue, Tyson was only as good as he seemed, cus there was nothing but terrible fighters---he moved through the ranks facing bums and over the hill fighters---then won the titles over very mediocre competition, and defended those titles against bigger losers.

But I think Holyfield would have bested him, if by just a little, even then.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 21 Mar 2006, 21:58

Actually their were quite a few heavyweights who would have given Tyson a good match had they been in shape and motivated. Buster Dougles proved that. Kind of strange why more fighters didn't recognize this and seize the opportunity given the rich rewards at stake. In a way it demonstrates their are more talented people than their are motivated.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 22 Mar 2006, 01:09

I definately would like to have seen an in shape prime Riddick Bowe vs Mike Tyson.

I also would have like to seen the 1990 Tyson-Holyfield matchup

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Mar 2006, 05:11

generic screen name wrote:I definately would like to have seen an in shape prime Riddick Bowe vs Mike Tyson.

I also would have like to seen the 1990 Tyson-Holyfield matchup

Tyson would have lost both fights.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 22 Mar 2006, 06:38

I think Tyson would have beaten Dokes, Snipes and Mason although Mason was a hard b**tard and would have done better than Bruno. I think Tyson would have blown Dokes away inside 3 at the most.

I think Tyson would have beaten Mercer maybe on points and it would be competitive. Witherspoon is always someone who I would have loved to see Tyosn fight. He certainly wouldn't have been intimidated and it would have been a tough fight. I always remember the way he psyched Bruno out in the press conference. But I still go for a Tyson win against Witherspoon. As for Bowe. I don't know. The way he backed out of a fight with Lewis always taints my opinions of him. And the fact he was getting beaten twice by Golota. I think he would last against Tyson and if he was in shape and determined it would be a long fight. Probably on points and I'd edge Tyson but I think Bowe out of the lot would have a good chance of beating him especially the longer it went on.

Holyfield v Tyson. Any time, place, year, both in their primes Holyfield would win this every time without a doubt! Remember Bowe didn't beat Holyfield, Holyfield beat himself.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 22 Mar 2006, 07:15

A very tough call is Tyson V Holyfield at their peaks...Tyson of 1986-88 was a lot better than the Tyson of the 90's...in all areas, speed, power and most importantly discipline and willpower. Holyfield of 91-93 was brilliant but lacked the real heavyweight muscle to KO Tyson. So Mike who went 11rds not close to his best, has to fare better had they fought at their respective peaks. I think Mike wins by UD or he KO's Holy early......

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 22 Mar 2006, 07:24

He certainly wouldn't be stopped early no-one has ever done that to him even now and his been in with some big punchers. As for a points decision, Holyfield is a much better boxer than Tyson so a points decision would go to Holyfield as well. Its one of them match ups for me that no matter what happens and how many times they fight Holyfield always wins.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Mar 2006, 07:27

Arsenal wrote:He certainly wouldn't be stopped early no-one has ever done that to him even now and his been in with some big punchers. As for a points decision, Holyfield is a much better boxer than Tyson so a points decision would go to Holyfield as well. Its one of them match ups for me that no matter what happens and how many times they fight Holyfield always wins.

I agree. Tyson can't KO Holy early and Holy has the endurance to come abck at him in the mid to later rounds. When ever anyone did that to Tyson they won. Holyfield always beats Tyson.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 23 Mar 2006, 13:56

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:disagree. spoon was in shape and motivated vs pinklon thomas and thomas outboxed him. spoon was just like the rest of the crop and tyson would have destroyed spoon just like he did tubbs, thomas, berbick

But Tyson and Thomas were two totally different fighters stylewise and as they say styles make fights.

If an in shape and motivated Buster Douglas could beat Tyson then I think an in shape and motivated Tim Witherspoon stood a good chance of at least giving Tyson a very tough fght.

What could Douglas do that Witherspoon couldn't do?

I suppose you could argue that Buster had the better jab, but Witherspoon had the better defence and right hand and there is not a huge difference between their chins although I would give the edge to Witherspoon in that department.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Mar 2006, 16:25

How much of what Tyson was delivering was hype? I ask this very genuinely because at one time he simply was feared and he rode a wave of fear right up until Douglas who could not be psyched and in this particular fight, showed up truly prepared for Mike. If Douglas had not had a significant event play out in his life that was able to "ground" him and allow him to disregard his fear, my guess is that he would have gone down like the rest of them.

Not by Tyson's skill but by the fear that everyone had of him.

It's a factor, it's not the only factor for sure but the only thing that was different about Douglas that night that made him different from some others is that he was not perserverating on how "deadly" Mike was or could be. Very interesting dynamic but only one dynamic of dozens that were playing out. Such as Mike's over-confidence and hapless corner men.

But it sure is one factor that makes assessing Tyson difficult as hell.

When I go back and watch Mike's best performances I see his opponents not performing as well as they should have. They have a hesitancy that they do not display in other fights. Smith was one who does not show that and he made it out alive. He didnt' win but he fared better than most. Mike took something other than his skills into some of those fights. He took the power of fear and he parlayed it quite a few times.

I just can not get a fix on how much it mattered in the various outcomes. But I am convinced it mattered more than most. Did Dempsey have this factor going in his favor as well?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Mar 2006, 16:39

Oh and I think he had an agenda on the books unsigned based on his assumed win over Douglas.....anyone know who they were? Not top contenders as I recall. Sort of a bum of the month world tour that got derailed by Buster.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 Mar 2006, 18:20

walshb wrote:A very tough call is Tyson V Holyfield at their peaks...Tyson of 1986-88 was a lot better than the Tyson of the 90's...in all areas, speed, power and most importantly discipline and willpower. Holyfield of 91-93 was brilliant but lacked the real heavyweight muscle to KO Tyson. So Mike who went 11rds not close to his best, has to fare better had they fought at their respective peaks. I think Mike wins by UD or he KO's Holy early......

agreed

- its noticeable when he left rooney how much much his boxing suffered. watch the bruno fight, his FIRST FIGHT WITHOUT ROONEY and u will notice tysons a lot easier to hit and more vunerable than in any of his other fights.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 Mar 2006, 18:22

He certainly wouldn't be stopped early no-one has ever done that to him even now and his been in with some big punchers.

holyfield never faced a puncher and finisher like mike tyson. look what tyson did to larry holmes who hadnt been stopped before or since facing tyson .

outside of joe louis, mike tyson is the greatest puncher of all time.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Mar 2006, 18:24

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
walshb wrote:A very tough call is Tyson V Holyfield at their peaks...Tyson of 1986-88 was a lot better than the Tyson of the 90's...in all areas, speed, power and most importantly discipline and willpower. Holyfield of 91-93 was brilliant but lacked the real heavyweight muscle to KO Tyson. So Mike who went 11rds not close to his best, has to fare better had they fought at their respective peaks. I think Mike wins by UD or he KO's Holy early......
agreed

- its noticeable when he left rooney how much much his boxing suffered. watch the bruno fight, his FIRST FIGHT WITHOUT ROONEY and u will notice tysons a lot easier to hit and more vunerable than in any of his other fights.

I agree with this as well, add that to the cumulitive strange dynamics.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 23 Mar 2006, 19:16

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
He certainly wouldn't be stopped early no-one has ever done that to him even now and his been in with some big punchers.

holyfield never faced a puncher and finisher like mike tyson. look what tyson did to larry holmes who hadnt been stopped before or since facing tyson .

outside of joe louis, mike tyson is the greatest puncher of all time.

Why is it that everyone always brings up Tyson's win over Holmes as having ANY significance whatsoever? Holmes was not just WAY past his peak, but had been inactive for nearly 2 years and had a shortened training camp. Using similar logic, does Cooney's KO of Lyle show that he was a "greater" puncher than Shavers who wasn't able to stop Lyle?

meade95 · Post by **meade95** » 24 Mar 2006, 18:24

Holyfield owns Tyson in their primes.....(and the reality is neither man was that far past their primes when they did actually meet in 96....they were both just slightly past).

Tyson was made to order for Holyfield. Always was...always will be. Holyfield had ice water in his veins and could not be intimidated....and had the stones to stand in and trade with Tyson to get his respect.

Holyfield had the chin to stand there...and the hand speed to get the better of those exchanges.

Tyson somewhat gets a bum wrap of late....regarding his greatness......but styles make fights....and Holyfield owns Tyson.

Just as Lennox would always be a tough fight for Holyfield......simply because of his size and defensive style of fighting.....

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 25 Mar 2006, 15:24

im bringing the holmes fight up as a testament to tysons power, he knocked out a very durable former champ who wasnt stopped before OR AFTER HE FOUGHT TYSON, and he was knocked out cold by tyson.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 25 Mar 2006, 15:46

So what we have after all is said and done is high potential partially achieved in the early years, with a total and complete breakdown based on a weak psyche and poor values/choices leading to an early demise.

On this day he would be an even bet against today's Riddick Bowe who may fit a similar pattern.

How do you rate guys like these? For example I tend to look to Archie Moore as the gold standard of functional careers, peaking high for a long period of time and enduring beyond all imagination. Squeezing just about all the potential out of himself during that time.

I can say an old Trans-Am was the best car I ever had because on it's best day the ride, and response were top notch but it fizzled out like an Alka Seltzer. Sort of like Tyson and Bowe. I just have a hard time rating either one of them as great because they showed and delivered some promise and then fizzled out.

The great ones don't do that. However Just like my Old Trans Am they sure had some great days.

bobbyd · Post by **bobbyd** » 26 Mar 2006, 03:09

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tyson knocks out holyfield. maybe not 1990, but the peak 86-88 tyson would knockout any version of evander .

nahhh.tyson could'nt ko mitch green or james tillis during his awesome tomato can killer reign of 86-88.how in the world would he ko holyfield.other fighters that'd have beaten him or given him hell had he won against buster douglass would be.

-riddick bowe(would've worn down mikey and ko'd em between rounds 9-11.
-ray mercer(would've withered tyson's tomato can killer style storm of flailing away like a pyschopath and lasted the distance.also would've been a very unenjoyable opponent for tyson.)
-george foreman(would've gone the distance in a rather dullish fight with a futilly flailing sloppy looking over anxiously eager kid "not so dynamite" tyson.)this fight could've very likely wound up being a draw.
-lennox lewis.(certainly likely,would've difused the kid's dynamite and clocked him cold,as lewis would be cautious and respective of tyson unlike his fluke 1st outing with mc call.i see lewis ko'ing em in 8 or 9.

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 29 Mar 2006, 18:10

Caulk Rocket wrote:
bobbyd wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:tyson knocks out holyfield. maybe not 1990, but the peak 86-88 tyson would knockout any version of evander .
nahhh.tyson could'nt ko mitch green or james tillis during his awesome tomato can killer reign of 86-88.how in the world would he ko holyfield.other fighters that'd have beaten him or given him hell had he won against buster douglass would be.

-riddick bowe(would've worn down mikey and ko'd em between rounds 9-11.
-ray mercer(would've withered tyson's tomato can killer style storm of flailing away like a pyschopath and lasted the distance.also would've been a very unenjoyable opponent for tyson.)
-george foreman(would've gone the distance in a rather dullish fight with a futilly flailing sloppy looking over anxiously eager kid "not so dynamite" tyson.)this fight could've very likely wound up being a draw.
-lennox lewis.(certainly likely,would've difused the kid's dynamite and clocked him cold,as lewis would be cautious and respective of tyson unlike his fluke 1st outing with mc call.i see lewis ko'ing em in 8 or 9.
Foreman was way out of shape, and Michael Moorer was a chump anyway. Foreman beat a chump in Moorer, who had beat Holyfield. If Bowe couldn't KO Holyfield, who had a better chin than Tyson, he couldn't have KO'd Tyson because Mike's power would have worn him down much more.

Don't even mention Lewis. He was put to sleep twice, not only was he out cold, it was really early both times. Holyfield nor Tyson were ever put down like that, even after their prime. Rahman is a clown, and McCall is a chump that lost to Bruno, Tucker, and Douglas. Lewis has far worse losses, albeit less losses, than Tyson and Holyfield.

With the exception of Williams, Tyson was always knocked out late when he did lose. Lewis and Holyfield took an out-of-prime Tyson out late in the fight, whereas Lewis was KTFO's by two chumps, and Holyfield had several really disappointing losses.

When Tyson lost, he lasted much longer with much better fighters. When Lewis lost, a chump took him out instantly.

i dont know why you keep saying lewis was put to sleep twice.
in the mccall fight he was on his feet way before ten and when the ref called it off he went apeshit. i actually agree with the ref, he looked a bit glassy eyed and wobbly on his legs but he certainly wasnt rolling around the floor looking for his gumshield like some i could mention.